I think I would have asked Barry if he had any objections to me taking notes and or posting his repsonses to a public forum. As a common courtesy.

I realize that may have resulted in him immediately terminating the conversation, ......

terry dean

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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.

AK, I wouldn't be offended either. I think the statements about not posting was us being concerned for your well being, not for any personal reasons. If you feel confident and comfortable with your decision to do it, then I say go for it. That is, unless the owner and moderator of this forum objects. Which, I don't see why he would after reading the text on the other forum.

I guess some look at airing private conversions to the public as being in bad taste. After hearing your side of what transpired, I certainly wouldn't feel any guilt over it, that's for sure!

Exactly. For me its a visceral reaction from my journalism training oh so many years ago. Either lay it all out upfront, quote "unnamed sources", or lie about who you are so they can't trace it back to you!

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Roy
nar12605

Speeches are not what we're talking about. Poor analogy as speeches are considered public. Phone conversations are still considered private unless they are made in a public context.

We're talking about a private phone conversation. Whether in the context of his business or not, he could expect some privacy. Of course, if he wanted to keep it "off the record" he should have said so. Since he apparently didn't, then (according to various state and fed privacy laws) AKPilot is free to do what he wants with the info.

The scenario I saw was: party A agrees to a conversation with party B, expecting a normal private conversation to address some of B's concerns. Party B goes on a public forum, announces he's going to have this conversation and will publish a transcript on the public forum. A sees that B has broken his confidence and reconsiders having the conversation and misses the originally scheduled time. B is perplexed and says so on the public forum. A sees this and begrudgingly calls anyway.

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Roy
nar12605

I'd appreciate it if you'd repost your info here as well. The users here were just concerned about possible legal ramifications. I read your posts on TRF and what you wrote was fine. It wasn't a word for word transcript.

I'd like you to post here because Vern reads the posts here at YORF fairly frequently, he just doesn't want to have a formal account here for obvious reasons. I'd like him to see what Barry had to say about him.

Thank you.

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Scott D. Hansen
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe - Your One Stop BAR Shoppe!
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Ye Olde Rocket Forum
WOOSH NAR Section #558

@ AKPilot,

Please post your conversation with Mr. Tunick here aswell.

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Leo

My rocket fleet and more @ Leo's Leisure Site and on YouTube - My latest project: ALTDuino

Here it is folks!!! My immediate post is the actual conversation that took place. I've quoted the facts and there's little room for interpretation.

Hang on to your shoes . . .

This is a transcript of conversation with Barry Tunick, Head of Estes Corporation. He called me this morning at 10:57am CDT.

Barry introduced himself and asked how the weather was in St. Louis. He said they were getting snow in Colorado today and yesterday it was 70. He explained that he used to live here years ago, and talked about how a few of the winters were here. From here on out, I was able to say very little, as he spoke very fast.

He then went onto say that Estes stopped going to "shows" ten years ago. He cited that around that time there was a significant push from a competitor, Quest, to implement a change to the NFPA rules. Barry stated that the proposed rule changes would only affect Estes in an adverse manner, and not affect Quest.

He stated that Vern Estes supported Bill Stine in this proposed change.

Barry then went on to say that during this period he kept bringing up safety concerns with Quest, who had their employees drilling delay holes in their motors with Black & Decker drills. He said that Quest was primarily doing this with "Indian" employees. He also stated that Quest was mixing dangerous chemicals like black powder all in the same facility, while Estes did it in a safer environment – in separate buildings.

He stated that then there was some sort of industry council, or board, being held on the proposed changes on the NFPA. He stated there were 14 members on the board/council. In the end, the board had 12 members vote not to implement the changes, and 2 voted for the changes. Barry stated those two individuals were Vern Estes and Bill Stine.

He then went on to say that Estes hasn't raised their motor prices in 15 years, despite erosion to the Estes Company. The motor price stayed the same despite a 3x increase in black powder, 2x increase in labor, and a 3x increase in casing prices. Recently they finally raised the prices on their motors to prevent further erosion.

He then went on to say that Estes supports over 2,000 workshops a year from schools, to the Boy Scouts, to supporting activities at NASA in Huntsville AL. He also stated that he supported a program called "Windy City" where clubs are given 50 free rockets.

He said the reason Estes is not present at any national events is because he “fears that (his) employees with receive physical harm”, citing that Estes has received numerous threats death threats. He said that both Mike Darflow (?) and Mary Roberts would love to attend national events but, he doesn’t let them travel to such – because he’s concerned for their physical well being.

In one of my two sentences I was able to say I told him I was sorry to hear about the threats; however I’ve seen every other model rocketry vendor at two national events and this absence may actually be perpetuating such actions.

He asked if I was going to be at any other national events this year so he could shake my hand. I told him I attended my one for the year, NARCON, and would probably be attending LDRS - as the other national events were on the east coast. He chuckled for whatever reason.

He said he’d send people to the next national event, if I would tell him when and where that was going to be. I told him he should check the NAR web site for a calendar of events.

At the conclusion of that he abruptly said goodbye and that was it. It was a very sudden ending.

So, after a few moments, I realized he didn’t answer my concern about the release of any 50th anniversary kits. So I called him back, on his personal extension. He answered and then I told him it was me, again, and forgot to ask something. At which time I present him the question about the avoidance of the 50th anniversary and asked him if there was any reasoning for that. He stated, “There is no reasoning.”

He further said that the employees in Estes had “100 or more different meetings” concerning the 50th anniversary and what would be released. He said that they couldn’t come to an agreement as there were too many ideas. So they dropped it completely.

I suggested that it might have been a good idea to think back about what Vern and Gleda first introduced nearly fifty years ago, or to simply acknowledge the anniversary in some way, shape, or form. Barry said, “Vern and Gleda Estes don’t exist as far as I’m concerned.”

He then said bye again, abruptly, and that was it. End of telecons.

So here's part two . . . strictly my impressions from my own personal conversation with Barry.

It was a bizzare phone call. I literally have heaped praise on Estes for introducing so many people to the hobby of model rocketry and providing and entry people. I have also provided some constructive criticism, in giving them an opportunity for improvement - especially to the loyal hobbyists.

At the conclusion of my phone call I was left appalled by his gruff attitude and unwillingness to listen, as he did 97% of the talking. Outside of asking me a few brief questions (e.g. St. Louis area, did you know my employees have been threatened, and what national events were coming up and if I'd be at them) I had little room to say anything - until I called him back.

His distaste for Bill Stine, Vern and Gleda Estes, and "Indian employees" set me back and was even brash. Even his suggestion to send people to a national event was hinged if I could tell him when and where the event would be held.

I found him to be completely out of touch with the hobby and not open, or didn't even ask for suggestions or why I was dissatisfied. Had I not found the conversation so intriguing I would've ended it sooner as I stated I would.

As for the comments relating to no 50th Anniversary kits, etc. I will strongly state this. If there were a "hundred or more" meetings, and his employees/board couldn't decide - as a President, he should have the gall to make the final decision. I didn't find him to be an effective leader or mentor.

I found him to be a very gruff individual at the very least, if not direct hate towards certain competitors and people. If Vern and Gleda don't "exist" in his mind - then rename the company and make a clean break.

There you go folks . . . to be blunt, if Estes didn't hold a monopoly on BP motors I'd take my business elsewhere. As is I've invested in 18 & 24mm casings and plan to give a bit more business to Aerotech where possible.

Yes, Barry, I approached things with an open mind and was completely taken back by your approach towards the hobby and industry.

In closing, my personal anthemn will be to further support vendors who truely care about the hobby and me as a customer.

Wow.

Can anyone comment meaningfully on his allegations regarding the NFPA ruling? What was he even talking about?

No kidding about the BP engines. Let's hope that, with Quest importing their engines, Sky will make a broader range. I'm all for keeping my money in the US, but frankly I'd rather send money to China than to a jerk like that.

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NAR # 115523
Once upon a better day... SAM #0076
My site: http://rocketry.gonnerman.org

Right on RD! Vern and Glenda represent the Estes many of us remember. The future is Semroc and the other excellent companies who have stepped in to fill the void, and I for one plan on supporting them with my purchases.

I'll continue to purchase engines from Estes until and unless someone else comes out with B-D black powder engines for comperable prices. I'll also purchase certain new and/or bring-back kits that they produce (I'm weak)...

However going forward my loyalty to Estes is to Vern and Glenda Estes not the current company with the same name. After hearing how the new and dis-improved company views the world it just isn't worth it.