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  #11  
Old 11-17-2020, 03:17 PM
Scott_650 Scott_650 is offline
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In the model railroading world they have the terms “brass hat” and “rivet counter” for the folks who obsess over dimensional discrepancies in scale models. Discrepancies of a few percentage points on models as small as 1/220th of the prototype! If we were REALLY concerned about adherence to scale we’d FLY our rockets to scale - imagine how many perfect in dimension and detail 1/24 scale V-2s you’re going to recover after hitting an apogee over 3 miles! 😉
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2020, 03:32 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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+1 to what Scott just said above.
Brass Hats and Rivet Counters.

I like "Mostly" Scale models WITHOUT being bean-counter accurate. That turns a hobby into a REAL PAIN IN THE BUTT.
Same way I feel about USELESSLY filling tube-spirals.
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  #13  
Old 11-18-2020, 08:21 AM
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tbzep tbzep is offline
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Sometimes the "TLAR" method is fine. (That looks about right) Most of the sounding rockets that Estes, Centuri, FSI and Quest have done over the years fit into that category. Guided missiles usually aren't stable so they have to move past the TLAR method to the IGMIFS method (I gotta make it fly stable) so it won't turn around and bite you.

Some models look ok except for a wildly out of scale part, like the hugely oversized rudders on the Estes Jupiter-C. It definitely doesn't look about right. If I ever build another, they will at least be scaled down to match the Mercury Redstone version, no matter how much nose weight is needed. That way I won't have to stick a short stubby rocket in front of it on my display.

V-2 kits generally follow the TLAR method until you look at a real one and see that the kit fins are huge and the fuse is sometimes stretched. You have to decide whether you want to add depleted uranium to the nose or have big fins.

Because of the law of diminishing returns comes into effect on scale, you have to decide to stop somewhere or you will go nuts. However, it's fun for me to try to visually clone an out of production sport or fantasy kit as close to the original kit as possible, even if internally it is different.

Competition scale is a different ball game. Cudos to the handful of top national and international modelers. I enjoy looking at the photos and reading about them, but I'll never have the patience to go that far.
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  #14  
Old 11-18-2020, 01:53 PM
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georgegassaway georgegassaway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
George,

Yes, the Centuri 1/45 Little Joe had data . . . It's a shame that it was incomplete, as you mentioned.

So did the CMR D-Region Tomahawk, which did have dimensional data.

Dave F.

As I said, hardly any kits have included scale data. So then you post two of the very few exceptions. And even the Little Joe drawing you posted, was not created by Centuri, it was a Convair drawing they threw in since they had it.

And even that drawing does not have fin thickness, a major must-have NAR precision scale requirement. So even that makes it illegal data for NAR scale, since you keep on obsesssing over demanding that model rocket scale kits MUST have NAR-legal dimensioned scale data JUST to be called a SCALE model.

Let me know when you find the NAR-legal dimensional scale data that came with the 1976 Estes Space Shuttle SCALE kit, and Estes BT-70 Little Joe-II, and the other SCALE models on that page I posted from the 1976 catalog along with the shuttle kit. Also the Titan-IV, and BT-60 Mercury-Redstone, to list a few scale kits that could not be scale kits without the kind of NAR contest-legal dimensional data based on your demands for the SLS model to have that data in order to be called "scale".

The Estes SLS model is a scale model no matter what you demand. Regardless of whether it has data you demand, or whether the real thing has flown yet. NAR scale contest rules don't mean spit when it comes to what is or is not a Scale model outside of an actual NAR Scale contest.

Your DEMANDS are ridiculous.

tbzep wrote:
Quote:
V-2 kits generally follow the TLAR method until you look at a real one and see that the kit fins are huge and the fuse is sometimes stretched. You have to decide whether you want to add depleted uranium to the nose or have big fins.


Also, many of the V-2 kits do not have the correct nose cone shape that has a pointy tip. The BT-80 Estes V-2 uses the same nose cone used by the Maxi-Alpha, Phoenix missile, and other BT-80 kits thru the years. It seems a bit too long, yet has a rounded tip. As I had mentioned earlier for some kits that compromise accuracy for various reasons, the use of an existing part like a nose cone rather than to create a new part just for that one new scale kit.
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Last edited by georgegassaway : 11-18-2020 at 02:14 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-18-2020, 02:27 PM
Scott_650 Scott_650 is offline
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One thing to keep in mind with any mass produced rocket, kit or otherwise, is that WE (hobby rocketry enthusiasts) are NOT the target market. The real targets are the producer’s distributors and major retailers - we’re probably, at best, the fourth tier of customers: distributors/retailers first, what could be best defined as the “toy” buying customers - adults buying for children - second, institutional customers - schools, youth groups, etc, next, then us, the hobby rocketry folks. Yes, we’re a small but important component of the sales pie for Estes, Quest and Custom Rockets (and to a larger extent with LOC and Aerotech and their smaller and MPR rockets and motors) - we’re the “yeast” in the dough, sustaining the market, driving trends and providing a “floor” for sales. But whether the new Estes RTF Scale Anything is prototypical is of nearly zero concern to the majority of the target buyers - especially the distributors! Their concern is sell through rates, margins, shelf space use, etc...

So, should we, the enthusiasts, hold the producers to a reasonable standard about scale sizing and details, quality of products, positive or negative effect on the hobby - you betcha! But to quote the Pareto principle’s 80/20 rule, Aristotle’s Principle of the Golden Mean, and especially “...the best is the enemy of the good - Voltaire” - let’s not loose sight of the big picture: lots of really fun rockets that we can make go up with fire and smoke, recover, then fly again! Even if the nose cone isn’t pointy enough, the faux SRBs are the wrong diameter, or the fins are too big.
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  #16  
Old 11-18-2020, 03:59 PM
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Earl Earl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_650
Even if the nose cone isn’t pointy enough, the faux SRBs are the wrong diameter, or the fins are too big.


Oh, geez, I didn’t know the model had THAT many problems! Scale my foot!!


Seriously though...you make some very good points re: markets and targets thereof. Let’s face it, the business of business is business and if they don’t turn a profit, they don’t last.

Earl
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  #17  
Old 11-18-2020, 08:01 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgegassaway
As I said, hardly any kits have included scale data. So then you post two of the very few exceptions. And even the Little Joe drawing you posted, was not created by Centuri, it was a Convair drawing they threw in since they had it.

And even that drawing does not have fin thickness, a major must-have NAR precision scale requirement. So even that makes it illegal data for NAR scale, since you keep on obsesssing over demanding that model rocket scale kits MUST have NAR-legal dimensioned scale data JUST to be called a SCALE model.

Let me know when you find the NAR-legal dimensional scale data that came with the 1976 Estes Space Shuttle SCALE kit, and Estes BT-70 Little Joe-II, and the other SCALE models on that page I posted from the 1976 catalog along with the shuttle kit. Also the Titan-IV, and BT-60 Mercury-Redstone, to list a few scale kits that could not be scale kits without the kind of NAR contest-legal dimensional data based on your demands for the SLS model to have that data in order to be called "scale".

The Estes SLS model is a scale model no matter what you demand. Regardless of whether it has data you demand, or whether the real thing has flown yet. NAR scale contest rules don't mean spit when it comes to what is or is not a Scale model outside of an actual NAR Scale contest.

Your DEMANDS are ridiculous.

tbzep wrote:

Also, many of the V-2 kits do not have the correct nose cone shape that has a pointy tip. The BT-80 Estes V-2 uses the same nose cone used by the Maxi-Alpha, Phoenix missile, and other BT-80 kits thru the years. It seems a bit too long, yet has a rounded tip. As I had mentioned earlier for some kits that compromise accuracy for various reasons, the use of an existing part like a nose cone rather than to create a new part just for that one new scale kit.


George,


"Lighten up" . . . I am neither "obsessing" over anything, nor am I "demanding" anything !

Remember that YOU were the one the cited the Centuri Little Joe II, half-assed data and all ! I posted the CMR D-Region Tomahawk with its excellent data.

If anything is "ridiculous" here, George, it's the "hyperbole" of your responses !

BTW - For Little Joe II data, the data you have placed online is the best resource for that vehicle !

Dave F.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-2021, 01:35 PM
frognbuff frognbuff is offline
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I figured this thread was as good as any to post, rather than start a new one. I got my Estes SLS in the mail - not bad for a plastic RTF.

Here, however, is another kind of SLS model. I purchased the kit on Etsy. The model is 1/48 scale, and is pretty darned amazing, especially given the guy who makes the models doesn't have access to actual engineering drawings - just awesome CAD skills and a great mind for modeling. Took a little over 2 months to get this together, but I think the result is pretty cool.

I have done a little work at ULA on the Interim Cryogenic Propulsion Stage (ICPS) - a modified 5m Delta IV Upper Stage. The ICPS portion of the model is really cool - the extendable RL10B-2 nozzle even extends and retracts (manually, of course). That's what originally drew me to this model - that and the Launch Abort System (LAS), which looks so cool!
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  #19  
Old 01-10-2021, 06:10 PM
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tbzep tbzep is offline
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That's a really nice model. I never liked the looks of the LES and bulbous BPC, but now that details can be seen with your model, it looks pretty cool. Nice touch with the tiny human for scale too.

I know they aren't going to paint the SLS, but I wish they'd at least figure out how to make the spray on insulation white. That way they could justify a few hundred pounds of black roll pattern somewhere on the thing just to make it look cool. I don't think it will exceed its max payload.
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  #20  
Old 01-10-2021, 08:49 PM
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neil_w neil_w is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frognbuff
Here, however, is another kind of SLS model. I purchased the kit on Etsy. The model is 1/48 scale, and is pretty darned amazing, especially given the guy who makes the models doesn't have access to actual engineering drawings - just awesome CAD skills and a great mind for modeling. Took a little over 2 months to get this together, but I think the result is pretty cool.

Wow, that is quite something. In what form was the model provided, is it a bunch of 3D-printed parts, or what exactly?
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