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  #21  
Old 02-01-2015, 05:37 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Ack....

I'm stickin' to my Nike slogan.

JEST DOO ITT !!!!!
Don't think that I (and probably most of us) don't *want* to "just do that." But if G. Harry Stine, Orville Carlisle, Vern Estes, LeRoy Piester, and many others had tried to overcome the then-in-force laws and legal definitions by "just doing it," there would be no hobby of model rocketry today. It required a lot of patient work on their part to get model rocketry sanctioned in all 50 states (including acceptance by the NFPA and the U.S. Postal Service). More recently, Stuart Lodge accomplished the same feat--almost single-handedly--in the United Kingdom. "Just doing it" would be like a one-night stand--enjoying one afternoon of flying (perhaps for just a few minutes) at a public park, followed by expulsion and possibly arrests. It's more sensible to work patiently to gain perpetual, welcome access to parks and schoolyards for flying model rockets; besides, it's fun to engage politicians and wear them down!
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  #22  
Old 02-01-2015, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacklin
A policeman cannot legally enforce a law or ordinance that does not exist. Before a proposed law or ordinance can be enacted the public must be given the opportunity for "review and comment". This is the essence of a constitutional republic and the rule of law. Anything less is a police state. And I'm still pissed!


I did some checking on a website, I believe this is the actual law the Cleveland Metro-Parks to show how a law can interpreted in various ways....

549.02 THROWING OR SHOOTING MISSILES.
(a) No person shall throw, shoot or propel an arrow, missile, pellet, stone, metal or other similar substance capable of causing physical harm to persons or property, in or on any public place, in or on the property of another, or from any private property into or onto any public place or the property of another. This section does not apply to authorized ranges or instruction nor when otherwise lawfully authorized.
(b) Whoever violates this section shall be fined not more than one hundred fifty dollars ($150.00) for the first offense and not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) for each subsequent offense. (ORC 1545.99)

In my opinion, you could be ticketed for skipping stones under this ordinance.
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  #23  
Old 02-01-2015, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernomatic
I did some checking on a website, I believe this is the actual law the Cleveland Metro-Parks to show how a law can interpreted in various ways....

549.02 THROWING OR SHOOTING MISSILES.
(a) No person shall throw, shoot or propel an arrow, missile, pellet, stone, metal or other similar substance capable of causing physical harm to persons or property, in or on any public place, in or on the property of another, or from any private property into or onto any public place or the property of another. This section does not apply to authorized ranges or instruction nor when otherwise lawfully authorized.
(b) Whoever violates this section shall be fined not more than one hundred fifty dollars ($150.00) for the first offense and not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) for each subsequent offense. (ORC 1545.99)

In my opinion, you could be ticketed for skipping stones under this ordinance.
...Or even for engaging in dwarf-tossing. :-) I get the impression that the writer(s) of that ordinance were thinking about horizontally-projected ballistic missiles such as rocks, arrows, BBs, bullets, and so forth, which could strike people and pets at high velocities and cause injury. Model rockets fly upward rapidly, but descend slowly (even nose-blow/break-apart recovery model rockets can be caught by hand safely)--and model airplanes fly horizontally, supported by their wings' lift--so exemptions/clarifications covering them could easily be added to the ordinance.
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  #24  
Old 02-01-2015, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernomatic
The problem can also lay in the interpretation of existing laws also.

The Cleveland Metro-parks system form a chain of green areas circling Metropolitan Cleveland, to such an extent that it is referred to as the Emerald Necklace. Over the years, the Metro-Parks have acquired certain properties and folded them into the system such that any large (acreage wise) area is almost exclusively under their jurisdiction. They are their own governmental entity with their own police force (not however judicial system, as at this time they must use local courts). All of this and.... you guessed it. Rocket launching is verboten.

They don't have a law, from what I understand from my conversation with some park rangers, specifically prohibiting model rocketry, but one which can be warped to include it. I think, and don't quote me on this, that the original law was created to make items like potato cannons illegal, since it states, going from memory on this. something along the lines as objects launched and or fired .....

I do plan on trying to overcome this ban one day, but at this time I have too many other projects on the line regarding trying to get my rocket company off the ground, and focusing on a smaller battle with a local councilman and a city owned park.

One additional tact I plan on utilizing is to possible have a law enacted which states that the parks can be used for model rocketry by MEMBERS OF A MODEL ROCKET ASSOCIATION WHOM ARE COVERED BY SOME SORT OF FINANCIAL RESPONSIBILITY. Letting the politicians know that we are concerned about our activities even to the point of being financially responsible for problems, takes an additional concern off their minds. It also leads to another positive point in your safety lecture by pointing out the low incident rate of model rocketry insurance claims. I believe the information is available through the NAR or I thought I saw it there once. I am sure it is available somewhere.

Not that I'm against HPR, I think it has it's place, but if I recall correctly, the most egregious of those claims I saw dealt with High Power. So, if not a problem, you can also consider a proviso that High Power Rocketry not be considered under certain circumstances. That would be your call and what your underlying goal is. It might be a tactic to even initially not have the high power and work into it at a later time. I am sure that rocketry got its foothold in the initial years by limiting the size and power of the rockets.

Another tact to take that reinforces the STEM connection is to correlate model rocketry with NASA and not those combative elements of national defense. I have done this on occasion to spectators by using the line...

I am like NASA, not the Army (or Air Force, Navy, I like to get my rockets back in one piece, safe and sound.

Now regardless of the fact that we know NASA doesn't care about first stages and such, the idea is reinforced that we are not there to blow up the neighborhood. There will be no explosions, and if there are, it is because of an accident, not deliberate. Now you are again reinforcing the safety consciousness.

One last thing, which may make a difference. Don't just use emails. Back it up with an additional snail mail letter, which is not just a copy of an email . This gives him and his staff something tangible to look at.

Good Luck
There's a lot of wisdom in that posting. For any "exhibits" or demo launches for politicians and/or officials, I'd use only "friendly, innocuous-looking" sport models with rounded-tip nose cones (like the Estes Alpha III, Quest Astra, Quest Big Betty, etc.), and scale models of only civilian sounding rockets and launch vehicles (of any national origin). I also wouldn't use any model that flies on 24 mm motors, just 13 mm and 18 mm ones.
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  #25  
Old 02-01-2015, 07:25 PM
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Nearly two hundred and thirty-nine years later and here we are.

http://www.founding.com/the_declara...444/default.asp
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  #26  
Old 02-01-2015, 07:29 PM
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Bernomatic's posting above just reminded me of another thing that would be helpful to include in any presentations to politicians and officials. As G. Harry Stine pointed out in his "Handbook of Model Rocketry," the fact that our model rocketry activities can be insured *at all*--and at a rock-bottom rate, to boot--is nothing to hide, but something to point to with pride; if model rocketry was dangerous, it couldn't be insured at *any* price (or at best, at a rate that only the wealthy could afford to pay). Also:

The park flying experience of Frank Zaic (the famous model airplane designer and writer, see: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...le+Search&gbv=2 ) is instructive, too. When he was a boy, he and a few friends wanted to fly their model airplanes in Central Park in New York City, but it was prohibited at that time. Undaunted, he managed to meet with Mayor LaGuardia (or Mayor Walker--I forget which) and presented his case, and the mayor issued him an unlimited-duration permit. When he and his friends went to Central Park and began prepping their models, a police officer came over and told them that flying model airplanes wasn't allowed. Young Frank politely showed the officer his permit, and he was stunned to see the mayor's personal signature on the official NYC Mayor's Office stationery! He was so impressed that he even cleared an area for the boys so that they could more easily prep and fly their models!
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  #27  
Old 02-01-2015, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bernomatic
I did some checking on a website, I believe this is the actual law the Cleveland Metro-Parks to show how a law can interpreted in various ways....

549.02 THROWING OR SHOOTING MISSILES.
(a) No person shall throw, shoot or propel an arrow, missile, pellet, stone, metal or other similar substance capable of causing physical harm to persons or property, in or on any public place, in or on the property of another, or from any private property into or onto any public place or the property of another. This section does not apply to authorized ranges or instruction nor when otherwise lawfully authorized.
(b) Whoever violates this section shall be fined not more than one hundred fifty dollars ($150.00) for the first offense and not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) for each subsequent offense. (ORC 1545.99)

In my opinion, you could be ticketed for skipping stones under this ordinance.

Does that include baseballs, footballs, or badminton birdies? They are all "other similar substances" and could cause physical harm...
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  #28  
Old 02-01-2015, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacklin
Nearly two hundred and thirty-nine years later and here we are.

http://www.founding.com/the_declara...444/default.asp
This is also why I support efforts such as Ironnerd's; it goes beyond flying rockets in parks. Such interactions offer opportunities to--tactfully--remind those to whom we *lend* our power that the purpose of government at all levels is NOT to control the people, but only to prevent chaos. In keeping with the monoceran concept of The Gray Path (the middle way), the Liberty that the founders spoke of lies between the two extremes of a -libertine- state of affairs (chaos) and a rigid, regimented authoritarian society. We've gone too far toward both extremes, simultaneously--toward "libertine-ness" for certain favored groups, and toward rigid conformity for the rest of us, who have the "privilege" of paying for both comedies of errors. Securing flying fields that are public parks is an example of civics in action, and it is a wonderful example for the children of those space modelers who push for it.
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  #29  
Old 02-01-2015, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironnerd
Does that include baseballs, footballs, or badminton birdies? They are all "other similar substances" and could cause physical harm...
That's an excellent point, especially since many parks have tennis courts, handball courts, and softball or baseball diamonds. All of these activities involve missiles, some of which are very hard and can cause injury or even death if they strike people (a baseball or softball hitting a person in the chest can stop his or her heart [and has, with fatal results]). In contrast, a falling model rocket, even if its parachute comes out as a "plastic wad" if it sticks to itself, descends slowly enough to catch safely by hand.
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  #30  
Old 02-01-2015, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
That's an excellent point, especially since many parks have tennis courts, handball courts, and softball or baseball diamonds. All of these activities involve missiles, some of which are very hard and can cause injury or even death if they strike people (a baseball or softball hitting a person in the chest can stop his or her heart [and has, with fatal results]). In contrast, a falling model rocket, even if its parachute comes out as a "plastic wad" if it sticks to itself, descends slowly enough to catch safely by hand.



Well, first off, one option I have considered pursuing is a legal one. It entails receiving a ticket for the offense in the first place. There is a tenet in law which basically states that if a law is too broad in it's application, it is unenforceable and therefore void. It would be interesting to pursue, but I think that should be an option of last resort.

Secondly, again if I recall correctly, there was a demonstration that the early pioneers of our hobby use to perform. They would launch a rocket against a plate glass section of window with the result of a destroyed rocket and no damage to the window. I don't know if the results would be the same with today's plastic nose cones.
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What's your idea on the best way to change Washington D.C.?
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