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  #31  
Old 10-02-2008, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by joecool
cool, thanks guys, this explains a lot! sounds like vern must have retired a rich man. i wonder what the annual revenue of cox/estes is these days?


Well, he sold partly with exchange of stock. He'll probably tell you it wasn't as good a deal as he originally thought it was going to be. You can go to his website -- http://www.vernestes.com -- and read some interviews with him and his wife, Gleda.

also go to http://www.questaerospace.com/museum for more info about G. Harry Stine and Orville Carlisle.
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  #32  
Old 10-02-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by LeeR
One word -- eBay.
I've found a number of old catalogs from my youth. The one I just cannot seem to ante up enough for is a '64. I was up to about $120, as I recall, and got considerably outbid by a couple people in the final few seconds (probably fellow YORF members!). Afterwards, I actually felt some relief that I lost, thinking it was insane to pay that much. But, I still feel that I've got to get that one someday - it was my first Estes catalog.

One of the Damon-era catalogs can be found in great shape at reasonable prices if you just keep watching.


You can often find Estes/Centuri catalogs at NARAM auctions. I've been the winning bidder several times.

NARAM-50 had several Estes/Centuri catalogs from the 1960s up for bid. I was interested in a 1963 Centuri catalog but dropped out after the bidding went past $110. The 'winner' bid $175.

I picked up an Estes 1964 catalog at NARAM-34. It was hand carried to NARAM by Mary Roberts herself. Mary told me that the catalog had been found in an old file at the Estes plant. The catalog was pristine and even had it's mailing wrapper.

I outbid several other people (I think it was Dave Cook and Bob Kaplow) for the catalog. Vern Estes signed the mailing wrapper afterwards.

Bob
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  #33  
Old 10-02-2008, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
You can often find Estes/Centuri catalogs at NARAM auctions. I've been the winning bidder several times.

NARAM-50 had several Estes/Centuri catalogs from the 1960s up for bid. I was interested in a 1963 Centuri catalog but dropped out after the bidding went past $110. The 'winner' bid $175.

I picked up an Estes 1964 catalog at NARAM-34. It was hand carried to NARAM by Mary Roberts herself. Mary told me that the catalog had been found in an old file at the Estes plant. The catalog was pristine and even had it's mailing wrapper.

I outbid several other people (I think it was Dave Cook and Bob Kaplow) for the catalog. Vern Estes signed the mailing wrapper afterwards.

Bob


so what'd it cost you to be the "winner" of the '64 catalog ... ?!
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  #34  
Old 10-02-2008, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
You can often find Estes/Centuri catalogs at NARAM auctions. I've been the winning bidder several times.

NARAM-50 had several Estes/Centuri catalogs from the 1960s up for bid. I was interested in a 1963 Centuri catalog but dropped out after the bidding went past $110. The 'winner' bid $175.

I picked up an Estes 1964 catalog at NARAM-34. It was hand carried to NARAM by Mary Roberts herself. Mary told me that the catalog had been found in an old file at the Estes plant. The catalog was pristine and even had it's mailing wrapper.

I outbid several other people (I think it was Dave Cook and Bob Kaplow) for the catalog. Vern Estes signed the mailing wrapper afterwards.

Bob


I just got a "nicer" '66 catalog and may put my previous copy up for auction. Also got a fairly mint '73 for fairly cheap.

I now have almost a complete collection of my Early Years Estes and Centuri catalogs (the 66 Estes are extras, my first Estes catalog was a 67)

I'm missing a 68 Centuri, 70 Centuri, and 74 Estes, though of those, only the 68 Centuri is a must. The 70 Centuri was more of a magazine, and the 74 Estes I paid scant attention to as I was on my way out of the hobby for the first time.
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  #35  
Old 10-03-2008, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Royatl
In the mid 80's they were known for their biomedical testing equipment (i think their cash cow was diabetic tests), and they were one of the first companies to bring out a simplified test for HIV. I think at that point some of the management saw a potential for being able to print money, and that's where Shockie's time line kicks in.


Actually, they were the target of an LBO (leveraged buy out). The LBO model at the time said "find business without a lot of debt but steady cash flow from stable businesses, then buy out the company using debt." When done properly, it was a very successful business model.

At the time, I tried getting First Chicago Venture Capital to bid on the company, and did get a copy of the prospectus. A very interesting document.

Last bit of trivia: the LBO that eventually came out of the Damon - Nomad struggle was the last deal done by Drexel Burhan Lambert, Mike Milken's old firm.
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  #36  
Old 10-03-2008, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by luke strawwalker

Sorry tbzep if I'm long winded... sometimes too much information to convey, and I've been trained to be very precise in my communication..


LOL! I think I would have used just as many words on that reply.
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  #37  
Old 10-03-2008, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNoir
Actually, they were the target of an LBO (leveraged buy out). The LBO model at the time said "find business without a lot of debt but steady cash flow from stable businesses, then buy out the company using debt." When done properly, it was a very successful business model.

At the time, I tried getting First Chicago Venture Capital to bid on the company, and did get a copy of the prospectus. A very interesting document.

Last bit of trivia: the LBO that eventually came out of the Damon - Nomad struggle was the last deal done by Drexel Burhan Lambert, Mike Milken's old firm.


But wasn't the LBO initiated by that group of managers (essentially similar to what Barry Tunick did with TCW in 2002 --though that was probably much friendlier and more cooperative!)?
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  #38  
Old 10-09-2008, 03:03 PM
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Ok I have a related question....

I'm reading the old Estes catalogs, currently on the 1979 catalog, and it lists "Starship Vega" as a 'NEW' kit, but it's listed a few years earlier in the "CITATION" catalog by Estes... which also fits with certain rockets being called the "Citation (rocket name here)" IE "Citation Patriot" that is a popular clone...

SO, question is, was "Citation" another firm Estes absorbed along the way, or a different name/line sold seperately from the Estes line, kinda like some of the stuff I noticed in the late FSI catalogs that were the same product sold under a different company name...

Thanks for any info... I find the history of model rocketry fascinating, and I'm really enjoying seeing how things progressed by reading all the old catalogs over at ninfinger's site...

TIA! OL JR
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  #39  
Old 10-09-2008, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Ok I have a related question....

I'm reading the old Estes catalogs, currently on the 1979 catalog, and it lists "Starship Vega" as a 'NEW' kit, but it's listed a few years earlier in the "CITATION" catalog by Estes... which also fits with certain rockets being called the "Citation (rocket name here)" IE "Citation Patriot" that is a popular clone...

SO, question is, was "Citation" another firm Estes absorbed along the way, or a different name/line sold seperately from the Estes line, kinda like some of the stuff I noticed in the late FSI catalogs that were the same product sold under a different company name...

Thanks for any info... I find the history of model rocketry fascinating, and I'm really enjoying seeing how things progressed by reading all the old catalogs over at ninfinger's site...

TIA! OL JR


The Citation product line (Along with the Centuri 'Stellar' Series) was an attempt by Estes to get model rocketry products into mass-merchandiser outlets (Woolworths, etc.). These products were all sold in boxes (No kits in bags) and simplified motor designations (A-3, B-4, C-5).

It was not successful.

Estes ran at least one ad in their Model Rocket News advertising the availability of the products (Left-over stock). I knew of several hobby shops which sold the Citation line, also.

All five Citation kits (Quasar, Red Max, Patriot, Starship Vega and Bomarc) were later release as regular, hobby shop products in bags with minor changes. I guess that's how they could be called 'new'.

Bob
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  #40  
Old 10-09-2008, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
The Citation product line (Along with the Centuri 'Stellar' Series) was an attempt by Estes to get model rocketry products into mass-merchandiser outlets (Woolworths, etc.). These products were all sold in boxes (No kits in bags) and simplified motor designations (A-3, B-4, C-5).

It was not successful.

Estes ran at least one ad in their Model Rocket News advertising the availability of the products (Left-over stock). I knew of several hobby shops which sold the Citation line, also.

All five Citation kits (Quasar, Red Max, Patriot, Starship Vega and Bomarc) were later release as regular, hobby shop products in bags with minor changes. I guess that's how they could be called 'new'.

Bob



The Patriot and Red Max were sold pretty much as they were, except for maybe replacing the black injection molded noses of the original with white blow-molded noses (the recent re-issue of the Red Max goes Back To Black!).

The Citation Bomarc was designed to glide, ejecting a pod with a heavy nose, not unlike the current Cosmos Mariner. The later Bomarc simply ejected a parachute.

One of the "selling points" of the Citation Quasar was its chrome-plated parts (came with a chrome-plated Porta Pad as well!). The later Quasars had non-plated, white parts.

Finally the Starship Vega had a number of changes to simplify it.
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