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  #21  
Old 02-21-2021, 04:16 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
As I see it, if the "igniter" significantly adds to the pressure inside the piston, then it is "sweetening".

Of course, the only way to prove this would be to either randomly pull models off the flight line for a "tear-down inspection" of the piston and the "igniter" OR have each competitor "supervised" during prep and right up until the model & piston is placed on the flight line. If the model is taken down, for any reason, the process repeats.

Dave F.


and therein lies the crux of the problem......when exactly does an igniter "significantly" add additional pressure. Maybe everybody should be forced to use Estes starters...hahahahah.
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  #22  
Old 02-21-2021, 11:44 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
and therein lies the crux of the problem......when exactly does an igniter "significantly" add additional pressure. Maybe everybody should be forced to use Estes starters...hahahahah.


I am talking about those who, essentially, use a "mini flash-pan", loaded with BP, Pyrodex/777, Smokeless Powder, Crimson Powder, etc, etc, etc.

Igniters that would not significantly add pressure would include "traditional" Estes igniters ( not the cornstarch BS ), electric matches ( Daveyfire/Oxral style ), Quest Q2G2 ( unfortunately OOP ), etc.

Dave F.
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Last edited by Ez2cDave : 02-22-2021 at 12:17 AM.
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2021, 07:18 AM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
I am talking about those who, essentially, use a "mini flash-pan", loaded with BP, Pyrodex/777, Smokeless Powder, Crimson Powder, etc, etc, etc.

Igniters that would not significantly add pressure would include "traditional" Estes igniters ( not the cornstarch BS ), electric matches ( Daveyfire/Oxral style ), Quest Q2G2 ( unfortunately OOP ), etc.

Dave F.


so a single-shot flashpan electrically ignited is "significant" but a DIY igniter with a BP head is not significant, even if they both used the same amount of BP in them? Or they both are significant? Basically, you are saying that BP/Smokeless powder/crimson powder. whatever powder, in any amount should be banned from use in piston launchers and that only igniters that have a pyrogen (which still produces some gases) are ok..... pyrogen generally ignite by hot gases , so what if I have a single-shot flash pan with a glob of pyrogen that I electrically ignite...... heat ignites pyrogen that release more heat and hot gases ...

see the problem that we are getting into. IS the NAR/FAI going to start regulating what kind of igniter that is ok and not ok? that's kinda micro-management for me.

"Priming" the pump, so to speak has obviously been going on in FAI competition for quite some time, for a competitive edge. It's like a dirty little secret that nobody wants to address or talk about because it opens up a can of worms.

Dave, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

The FAI has outlawed Floating Head Pistons which gave the USA a technological edge in piston technology I assume because they were afraid somebody would get hit in the head with a loose piston tube.......

http://www.jpyro2.com/wp-content/up...Kos-559-562.pdf


https://www.jacobsrocketry.com/aer/...nd_igniters.htm

Do these past the insignificant test?
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  #24  
Old 02-22-2021, 01:07 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
so a single-shot flashpan electrically ignited is "significant" but a DIY igniter with a BP head is not significant, even if they both used the same amount of BP in them? Or they both are significant? Basically, you are saying that BP/Smokeless powder/crimson powder. whatever powder, in any amount should be banned from use in piston launchers and that only igniters that have a pyrogen (which still produces some gases) are ok..... pyrogen generally ignite by hot gases , so what if I have a single-shot flash pan with a glob of pyrogen that I electrically ignite...... heat ignites pyrogen that release more heat and hot gases ...

see the problem that we are getting into. IS the NAR/FAI going to start regulating what kind of igniter that is ok and not ok? that's kinda micro-management for me.

"Priming" the pump, so to speak has obviously been going on in FAI competition for quite some time, for a competitive edge. It's like a dirty little secret that nobody wants to address or talk about because it opens up a can of worms.

Dave, I'm playing devil's advocate here.

The FAI has outlawed Floating Head Pistons which gave the USA a technological edge in piston technology I assume because they were afraid somebody would get hit in the head with a loose piston tube.......

http://www.jpyro2.com/wp-content/up...Kos-559-562.pdf


https://www.jacobsrocketry.com/aer/...nd_igniters.htm

Do these past the insignificant test?


Personally, if I were going to "sweeten" a piston, my choice would be to use Crimson Powder, as it produces almost no smoke and leaves no residue. It would be contained in "Magician's Flash Paper".

"Crimson Powder" - http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/artic...der_rev.1.4.pdf

Here is a video of Crimson Powder in use ... Note the lack of smoke & low report ( unlike BP ).

https://web.archive.org/web/2016061...npowdertest.wmv

The simplest solution is to ban piston launchers, altogether.

Dave F.
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Last edited by Ez2cDave : 02-22-2021 at 01:35 PM.
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  #25  
Old 02-22-2021, 02:07 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ez2cDave
Personally, if I were going to "sweeten" a piston, my choice would be to use Crimson Powder, as it produces almost no smoke and leaves no residue. It would be contained in "Magician's Flash Paper".

"Crimson Powder" - http://www.nakka-rocketry.net/artic...der_rev.1.4.pdf

Here is a video of Crimson Powder in use ... Note the lack of smoke & low report ( unlike BP ).

https://web.archive.org/web/2016061...npowdertest.wmv

The simplest solution is to ban piston launchers, altogether.

Dave F.


wasn't crimson powder designed for ejection charges? why not use golden powder?



https://pyrosource.fandom.com/wiki/Golden_Powder

how about using a MMX motor turned upsidedown that you ignite electrically then have it ignite the real motr...lol.....

next thing you know we'll have people "washing" the insides of their piston tubes with flammable liquids that evaporate......

maybe pistons should just be banned from FAI competition. That probably is the best solution to prevent any and all cheating.

whatever man can create; man can undercut.....
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  #26  
Old 02-22-2021, 03:25 PM
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Ez2cDave Ez2cDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
wasn't crimson powder designed for ejection charges? why not use golden powder?

https://pyrosource.fandom.com/wiki/Golden_Powder

whatever man can create; man can undercut.....


From what I have read, Crimson Powder is supposed to be less hygroscopic than Golden Powder . . . More research needs to be done.

Dave F.
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Last edited by Ez2cDave : 02-23-2021 at 11:24 PM.
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