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  #1  
Old 03-12-2016, 05:58 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Default Estes Manta II B/G query

Hello All,

I recently had an Estes Manta II Launch Set (see: http://www.estesrockets.com/001425-manta-ii-launch-set ) sent to a British ex-pat friend of mine who lives in France. The reviews of the kit on that page say that the little delta winged glider flies in a straight line, which often makes a really big field necessary for recovering it successfully (particularly with "B" or "C" motors and/or on days with any wind). I have three questions about this:

[1 and 2] I know that trimming the glider to turn gently to the left will help to prevent downwind and thermal "fly away" glides, but what is/are the best way(s) to trim this glider for that? (I was thinking of either an upward-canted tape [or card stock] "elevon tab" affixed to the left wing tip [perhaps set in position with a drop of white glue after hand-toss trimming tests], or a similar "rudder tab" affixed to the vertical stabilizer, or perhaps a tiny bit of clay ballast applied to the left wing tip. Has anyone here tried these methods, and if so, which one worked best?)

[3] The Estes website says that replacement Manta II gliders are also available (it's always good to have a spare...), but I couldn't find a listing for them on the Estes website. Is there an order form for replacement ones in the Manta II Launch Set?

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
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Last edited by blackshire : 03-12-2016 at 06:29 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-12-2016, 07:51 PM
AstronMike AstronMike is offline
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Default Parasite Glider Trimming

That Manta glider is darned small, and any adjustments you make had better be smaller

Now, the 'tape elevon' trick is something that's probably the better bet here, as it can easily be adjusted between flights.

If the glider is consistently 'falling off' to one side during tosses, a *tad* of weight on the 'high' side wings tip can help. Yeah, clunky, but works in a pinch.

I've done PG's like the foamy Manta with plain old index cards, cut into a delta shape, with their outer tips canted up a bit (built in elevons). These are also easily flown, and mounted with a dowel for the 'body spine', extending some distance forward of the delta wing. This is for the necessary nose weight you'd need anyways. At the front of this, you can tape a small bent open (or cut in halfish) paper clip. Hook that on a forward lug, and let er rip.

This reminds me of the time back nigh 20 years ago, on RMR, where a guy was wanting *something, anything* easy to build gliders for a class. So, I sent him a cardstock type, built and folded, and stuffed into a plain envelope. Mailed it to him, and he flew the heck outta that. Don't recall if he ever did the class deal, though.

*THAT* then reminds me (excuse the rambling, getting all nostalgic here) of the time right after that, back around '97. A few guys flying near Orlando, at the old Red Bug site (which Roger darn well knows of, before it got developed), contacted me about flying with them.

OK, great, especially since they'd heard about the infamous AstronMike and his flying circus.

Took one of my old Marauder glider kits, parts all in the bag, the kind that required NO GLUE to construct. Proceeded to build this onsite in 10 minutes, flew it, and it outflew my own Marauder! BTW, the girl there flew the 1284 Shuttle a few times on C5-3s. As you'd expect, it tended to lay over on boost often, but one flight, it decided to go straight, and probably turned in the best 1284 flight in history.

Darn, I miss those days.....sorry for the off topic drifting here.
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Old 03-13-2016, 01:18 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstronMike
That Manta glider is darned small, and any adjustments you make had better be smaller

Now, the 'tape elevon' trick is something that's probably the better bet here, as it can easily be adjusted between flights.

If the glider is consistently 'falling off' to one side during tosses, a *tad* of weight on the 'high' side wings tip can help. Yeah, clunky, but works in a pinch.

I've done PG's like the foamy Manta with plain old index cards, cut into a delta shape, with their outer tips canted up a bit (built in elevons). These are also easily flown, and mounted with a dowel for the 'body spine', extending some distance forward of the delta wing. This is for the necessary nose weight you'd need anyways. At the front of this, you can tape a small bent open (or cut in halfish) paper clip. Hook that on a forward lug, and let er rip.

This reminds me of the time back nigh 20 years ago, on RMR, where a guy was wanting *something, anything* easy to build gliders for a class. So, I sent him a cardstock type, built and folded, and stuffed into a plain envelope. Mailed it to him, and he flew the heck outta that. Don't recall if he ever did the class deal, though.

*THAT* then reminds me (excuse the rambling, getting all nostalgic here) of the time right after that, back around '97. A few guys flying near Orlando, at the old Red Bug site (which Roger darn well knows of, before it got developed), contacted me about flying with them.

OK, great, especially since they'd heard about the infamous AstronMike and his flying circus.

Took one of my old Marauder glider kits, parts all in the bag, the kind that required NO GLUE to construct. Proceeded to build this onsite in 10 minutes, flew it, and it outflew my own Marauder! BTW, the girl there flew the 1284 Shuttle a few times on C5-3s. As you'd expect, it tended to lay over on boost often, but one flight, it decided to go straight, and probably turned in the best 1284 flight in history.

Darn, I miss those days.....sorry for the off topic drifting here.
You've just made a sale! (More on this below.) That--the topic drifting (if Wally Schirra could sing a bit of "Drifting and Dreaming" during Sigma 7's random uncontrolled attitude testing period in orbit, why not you, too?)--is perfectly fine! Also:

Thank you for the tape tab elevon idea 'reinforcement.' I figured that trimming such a small parasite-type boost-glider might be rather tricky (decades ago I once had a couple of the little foam delta gliders--made by Guillow or Testors, I believe--and if memory serves, they were rather sensitive to trim changes). I'll pass your Manta II glider trimming suggestion along to Keith Sanders in France. Now, speaking of the sale:

If you still have the plans for that folded-for-mailing card stock parasite glider, I would be interested in buying some from you, not only for Keith, but also for Marlys House (a teacher in Eagle, Alaska whom I help--she incorporates model rocketry into her students' STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics] classes). In fact, you could make and sell these gliders (which you could imprint if desired) to many individuals, teachers, and youth group leaders who use model rocketry; numerous Estes and Quest rockets would make fine carriers for the gliders.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #4  
Old 03-13-2016, 05:49 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is online now
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The ONLY way you can get the 1284 shuttle to NOT arc-over in flight is via using old C5-3's, VERY old 18mm Cox D8-3's, or AeroTech 18mm D10's, D13's, D21's, and D24's.

On the TURD-O thrust-profile Estes C6-3 it ALWAYS "arcs-over" even in ZERO wind.

ALMOST the same flight profile exists for the Estes/Semroc Mars Lander kits.

Both the 1284 Space Shuttle and Mars Lander should have featured 24mm mounts as standard.
I have seen both "converted" and they fly much better on C11's and D12's with the proper nose weight added.

Estes should have NEVER dropped the C5-3 (and B8) motors from production.
There is NOTHING the C6 and B6 Estes motors can do that the C5 and B8 motors do not do BETTER.
The Estes B6-6 should have been discontinued instead of the B4-6 upperstage motor.
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  #5  
Old 03-13-2016, 11:14 AM
AstronMike AstronMike is offline
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Yea, GH, I fully agree that the C5-3 had a unique place for flying heavier models. Or, in my case, gliders.

Even the B8 wasn't too bad, either, as its different burn profile as well as differed delays from the usual -4 stuff in the B line sometimes was perfect.

In reply to Blackshire, I quit selling glider kits back in '98, mainly due to not being able to post pics/vids online then. OF course, I'm referring to the Novus Aerospace stuff, which I believe is upon Rocket Reviews for a few of them.

The easy delta PG is just that. You'd take like a 4x6 index card and cut out a delta planform, with the long side being the chord. You'd bend that in the middle, and tape/glue that to a 1/8" wood dowel, about 8" long. Bend up the tips a bit, barely noticeably, and then tape/glue on the paper clip hook.

These would be great on BT50 or larger models, Athena sized or so, with the glider resting as far aft as possible between fins. 3 finned models give more space to allow for this over the 4's.

Of course, this is easily upscaled, using cereal box cardboard and such, and needing larger rocket carriers. Used to have a BT101 adapted to 2xBT80 rocket more than 20 years ago that was perfect for carrying 4 of these larger PGs. Now, getting them all back, well.....
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Old 03-14-2016, 11:22 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstronMike
Yea, GH, I fully agree that the C5-3 had a unique place for flying heavier models. Or, in my case, gliders.

Even the B8 wasn't too bad, either, as its different burn profile as well as differed delays from the usual -4 stuff in the B line sometimes was perfect.

In reply to Blackshire, I quit selling glider kits back in '98, mainly due to not being able to post pics/vids online then. OF course, I'm referring to the Novus Aerospace stuff, which I believe is upon Rocket Reviews for a few of them.

The easy delta PG is just that. You'd take like a 4x6 index card and cut out a delta planform, with the long side being the chord. You'd bend that in the middle, and tape/glue that to a 1/8" wood dowel, about 8" long. Bend up the tips a bit, barely noticeably, and then tape/glue on the paper clip hook.

These would be great on BT50 or larger models, Athena sized or so, with the glider resting as far aft as possible between fins. 3 finned models give more space to allow for this over the 4's.

Of course, this is easily upscaled, using cereal box cardboard and such, and needing larger rocket carriers. Used to have a BT101 adapted to 2xBT80 rocket more than 20 years ago that was perfect for carrying 4 of these larger PGs. Now, getting them all back, well.....
In the late 1970s and early 1980s, inspired by Jules Bergman's 1960 book on the X-15 (and other X-Planes) that I'd found in the school library, I built somewhat more complicated profile scale models of some of the X-Planes (the X-1B, X-2, X-4, and X-20) using notebook paper, a little bit of card stock, bottle rocket sticks (just two crossed ones, for stiffening the fuselage and wings), and masking tape. Also:

They all flew very well as hand-launched gliders, and the X-4 models--each of which I also fitted with a backward-angled paperclip that served as a hook for rubber band-catapult launching--flew very high and long. Models like these would likely also make good parasite gliders (particularly the X-20, which could take higher speeds without suffering wing flutter), but the delta-winged ones that you described above would be easier to build, and might--being lighter--glide better after sliding free of their carrier rockets.
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http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Old 03-14-2016, 12:04 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
The ONLY way you can get the 1284 shuttle to NOT arc-over in flight is via using old C5-3's, VERY old 18mm Cox D8-3's, or AeroTech 18mm D10's, D13's, D21's, and D24's.

On the TURD-O thrust-profile Estes C6-3 it ALWAYS "arcs-over" even in ZERO wind.

ALMOST the same flight profile exists for the Estes/Semroc Mars Lander kits.

Both the 1284 Space Shuttle and Mars Lander should have featured 24mm mounts as standard.
I have seen both "converted" and they fly much better on C11's and D12's with the proper nose weight added.

Estes should have NEVER dropped the C5-3 (and B8) motors from production.
There is NOTHING the C6 and B6 Estes motors can do that the C5 and B8 motors do not do BETTER.
The Estes B6-6 should have been discontinued instead of the B4-6 upperstage motor.
While reading your message with its, um...unique adjective for the C6-3's thrust profile, I kept picturing Gunter Wendt's colorful account of what Project Mercury astro-chimp Enos did when a visiting Florida Congressman (who Wendt dared not name at the time) taunted Enos as he glared out from his cage. Enos growled and then sat on his hands, and seconds later he ballistically delivered--with great accuracy--a steaming mass of primate solid waste onto the Congressman's expensive suit. Gunter Wendt, knowing what was about to happen, had stepped out of Enos' line of fire, and then had to dive into a closet after witnessing the on-target, malodorous missile's impact (and hearing the target's reaction...), because he couldn't restrain his urge to laugh out loud! Also (speaking of the 1284 Space Shuttle):

A Chinese-made Quest C6-3 would likely provide an even more "interesting" (in the Chinese curse sense of that word) flight in a 1284 Space Shuttle. Being more like a C4-3 (as other YORF members have reported), the model might simulate an RTLS (Return To Launch Site) abort--in the vertical direction, rather than generally horizontally as the full-scale vehicle would have done--if flown on one of these motors. Imagine a liftoff and a brief climb, followed by a tail-slide after the thrusting period ends, as the Shuttle falls backward through its delay smoke trail (and those motors deposit a lot of "exhaust crud" on models, as compared with Estes motors). The model might--or might not--pitch down into a glide (just a short, brief one at best) after its fall; even an Estes *B*6-2 might work better instead... :-)
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http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Old 04-29-2016, 03:33 PM
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Default Trimning a Manta Glider

Quote:
but what is/are the best way(s) to trim this glider for that?


When I was designing this glider I found that very small adjustments to those raised elevator sections at the back of the wing will make the model turn. A few swipes with a small sanding block to the top on just one side will make the glider turn. Remove a thickness of less then a piece of paper and you should be good. A great way to test trim the Manta is to shoot it up with a rubber band on a stick like the version we sale of it. Only pull back a little on the rubber band since if you pull to much it will simply do a loop right into the ground. You could of course simply add a piece of tape to one side of the wing to get the model to turn into the heavier wing. It doesn't take much.



John Boren
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