Yeah... I don't expect to see SLS last much longer... maybe make a "demo" type test flight or two, and that's it... once the expense of it comes to the attention of the media, particularly with CHEAPER ALTERNATIVES (like a dual-lauch EOR/LOR or EOR/EL2/lunar surface type mission launched by a pair of Falcon Heavies) SLS will be toast. SLS wouldn't even exist if it weren't for the old "shuttle mafia" space state senators keeping the thing alive, and for a reason to keep NASA in the launch vehicle business, and to prop up solid propellant production. SLS's main job isn't getting to the Moon or anywhere else, it's to keep the old shuttle contractors and ATK funded with fat development and production contracts. SLS is simply TOO EXPENSIVE... while shuttle was terribly expensive due to the huge "standing army" to keep it maintained and flying, at least it had a decent enough flight rate to amortize out the support costs... SLS does the exact opposite-- SLS was designed to ONLY FLY about ONCE every TWO OR THREE *YEARS*-- which means that while it has a smaller "army" of support personnel than shuttle had, it also means they build a vehicle or do their bit for the program and then basically "polish wrenches" for another 2-3 years before they have to do their bit for the program again on the next launch... meanwhile they continue to get a paycheck and all the facilities have to be maintained and kept operating-- lights on and the heat on, so to speak, and all that goes into the overhead and program costs. AND, with only ONE FLIGHT every 2-3 years, that means those operating costs ACCRUE and are all part of that ONE FLIGHT'S OVERALL COSTS... even when shuttle was flying only twice a year (post Columbia, which was 17 years ago now) the overhead costs were still AMORTIZED over those two flights, meaning each flight only took HALF the support costs per year... So, on that basis alone, SLS program/support costs will be 4-6 TIMES that of shuttle, before any yearly reductions in "the standing army" supporting SLS versus shuttle.

SLS also uses all the MOST EXPENSIVE PARTS of the shuttle, sans the orbiter of course, (meaning the RS-25 SSME's and the SRB's) that were DESIGNED to be used in "reusable mode" and uses them in "expendable mode", dropping them all to the bottom of the Atlantic on every flight. At least Saturn V's stages and engines were designed to be expendable!

Honestly the only reason SLS is still alive is because of "institutional inertia" meaning it's easier to keep a program rolling than cancel it. The glacial pace of SLS and Orion means that basically they were outdated before they even left the drawing board. SLS just isn't even on the radar in Congress but once the post-covid economic contraction takes full effect in a year or two, there's going to be a lot of belt tightening like it or not, and it's gonna be VERY hard to justify the most expensive rocket ever built that can only fly a handful of times before the shuttle hardware (SRB casings and RS-25 engines) are all expended and it needs REPLACEMENTS designed and produced to continue flying... and when there's cheaper alternatives that could be used...

AND, by that time, odds are that *something* even better by SpaceX or *maybe* Blue Origin WILL be flying, making SLS completely obsolete anyway. SpaceX is making progress on Starship, even if they're a bit 'optimistic' in their timelines, and Blue Origin is still "working behind the curtain" so even their glacial progress is still moving forward, even if at a snail's pace...

Later! OL J R : )

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Yep... NASA is a bloated bureaucracy, not the smooth engineering agency it was when it was created in the late 50's and charged with getting us to the Moon within a decade in 1961...

More interested in 'inclusion and diversity' and all this other political claptrap than actually achieving anything.

Later! OL J R: )

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Not without a braking maneuver or atmospheric entry they wouldn't... they'd remain in a highly elliptical orbit "indefinitely". You don't come back to LEO from a highly elliptical orbit without either a braking maneuver or "aerobraking" through the atmosphere, or making a "direct reentry" as Apollo did.

If we're gonna split hairs over whether Apollo lunar missions "left Earth" then lets split them all the way LOL OL J R

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

And it could do some things that nothing else could thanks to that cavernous payload bay, over and over. SLS will (maybe) only be able to loft something heavy once, which can already be done by a pair of Falcon Heavies. They can do it cheaper even if all six boosters have to be run to their limits and lost instead of returning. (or so I've read)

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I love sanding.

Apollos 8, 10, and 11 were placed initially in free return trajectories that had perigees ~180 km above Earth’s surface. This perigee is by definition in LEO, even though the orbit is elliptical. So they would indeed pass through LEO, which was by design as it would facilitate re-entry in the event something went wrong. Later Apollo missions were placed on “hybrid” trajectories to enable greater choice in landing sites. Apollo 13 had to perform a burn using the lunar module to change from its planned trajectory to a circumlunar free return. A later burn was done to speed up Earth arrival by 10 hours.

You are thinking simple 2 body dynamics, and that doesn’t work for elliptical orbits around Earth. The Earth is not a perfect sphere, there are significant gravitational perturbations from the Sun, and you have non grav forces like radiation pressure. All of this causes these orbits to evolve rapidly - as an example, look at the orbit of the Chandra X-ray telescope, which only has attitude control. Some objects have their perigees raised; others have them dropped into the atmosphere. Nothing - and I mean absolutely nothing - stays in the same orbit indefinitely. All orbits change; it’s just a question of time scales.

In case you don’t know, I track meteoroids and space debris for a living; my PhD is in Astronomy with a specialty in celestial mechanics. First job with NASA involved collision avoidance for the Shuttle and Space Station. I can’t hit a barn with a rifle (much to the dismay of my dad), but I do know orbital dynamics.

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Bill Cooke
NAR #31312
TRA #19705
SAM #0001
Huntsville, AL

My rocket blog
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Translation: Only Starman (Space-X) has slipped the surly bonds of Earth, but even with him, our planet will influence his orbit. All the Apollo flights would have been long elliptical orbits had they "missed" the moon. The moon is in Earth's orbit, therefore the astronauts were a just a temporary part of the moon and still in earth's orbit.

BTW, if anyone is interested in where Starman is, this website keeps a running tab. It also gives updates on the Roadster's MPG. It is a little over 13 days from its first close approach to Mars. He is exceeding the speed limit by about 52, 670 mph.
https://www.whereisroadster.com/

P.S. It's time for some serious target practice!

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I love sanding.

It won’t help - I suck with guns. My brother wanted me to go deer hunting with him, showed me his gun collection, and suggested I take the Uzi, because I might hit something with that.

<sigh>

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Up next:
Under construction:
Under repair:
In finishing: Centuri Sabre clone
In primer:
In paint:
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Bill Cooke
NAR #31312
TRA #19705
SAM #0001
Huntsville, AL

My rocket blog
My rocket fleet

Including him, maybe? Sounds risky on his part.

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Lee Reep
NAR 55948

Projects: Semroc Saturn 1B, Ken Foss Designs Mini Satellite Interceptor
In the Paint Shop: Nothing! Too cold!
Launch-Ready: Farside-X, Maxi Honest John, Super Scamp

Have to ask, what day is the Apollo booster going to return from the Sun-Earth orbit?

You know the one that has a 30-year orbit.

Sure did enjoy reading the reports in the news in 1999 about an unknown object with titanium white for a color.

Can hardly wait till the 2029 return and what the news will have to say, since the Apollo missions were filmed in a studio.

Mike

I think you are referring to J002E3, which is almost certainly the Apollo 12 S-IVB. It escaped Earth orbit in June 2003, and is expected to return in the mid-2040’s. Can’t be more precise than this, because we did not get enough observations before it became too faint to see (only a 114 day arc) and because the solar radiation pressure is not constant in time, but rather changes with its position around the sun (empty rocket bodies are strongly affected by non-gravs).

Sorry we can’t answer your question - the uncertainties in its orbit are just too great.

__________________
Up next:
Under construction:
Under repair:
In finishing: Centuri Sabre clone
In primer:
In paint:
Ready for decals:

Bill Cooke
NAR #31312
TRA #19705
SAM #0001
Huntsville, AL

My rocket blog
My rocket fleet