Bill Stine was also behind the FSI 18mm motors made on the old MRI/MPC?AVI/Canaroc 'Delta" motor making machine.

terry dean

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Ok related question... The Centuri 'merger' (or whatever you want to call it) I can see and understand the business reasoning behind it, and I can see clearly from the catalogs that some of the Centuri stuff went directly into 'the Estes line' and Centuri parts were integrated into later Estes designs (like the BT-56, one of my fave tube sizes even if it IS an 'oddball') and is even clearly evident when you look as some of the Estes Starter kits like the "Star Trek" starter set and "Patriot" starter set, and the Buck Rogers "Laser Lance" starter set, which all use the Centuri lantern battery launch pads (those things hung around a LONG time, if you just go look at starter sets in the catalogs! Must have been a TON of them in the warehouse!) (side note-- which were eventually replaced by an ultra cheapy 'launch pad' made from a 3-way plastic socket and 3 wood dowels by the look of it, which was gotten rid of by the late 80's.)

Anyway, my question is, WHY did Estes buy up North Coast Rocketry, have a big splash with the introduction of more kits and HPR motors, and then drop the whole thing and sweep it under the rug?? Seems like the big $$$ are in HPR nowdays, as that's where most of the 'serious' (for lack of a better word) interest lies, and because HPR means high-dollar, at least compared to LPR/MPR. Seems like they'd have wanted to get a leg up on that market! Input here please??

When I graduated and went to tech school on scholarship, I couldn't afford rockets, and was too busy (typical BAR story) and the last I knew was the pre-Estes North Coast. I was really interested in their stuff and thought about getting into it but never could realistically afford it, though I did drool over their catalogs (and the hot chicks in them; I WAS in high school after all!) and I was really surprised, after getting back into rocketry a couple years ago, to find out that NCR was 1) bought by ESTES, and 2) disappeared shortly thereafter.

I'm really fascinated by the history of model rocketry and am enjoying reading all the catalogs over at ninfingers, and pleased that through my own collection from high school, of Am Space mags and Estes, CMR, FSI, and NCR catalogs (which I saved every one of upstairs in my 'junk' from high school and recently resurrected) and through a few lucky buys on Ebay and through yardsales on these forums, I now have a LOT of information from both before I got into rocketry and after I left it before I was a BAR. Very interesting stuff...

Thoughts, observations, input appreciated! OL JR

For bonus points, what Centuri kit is currently in production by Estes in it's FOURTH reincarnation, essentially unchanged from when it first came out??

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Edit Note: Re-read this, as I found some 4 AM grammatical errors that may lead to misunderstanding!



That's easy. It's the Phoenix Bird from around 1980, and may actually go a bit farther back as part of a quick & dirty Enerjet rocket kit for universities. My evidence for that is not very good. But at least I know the lineage since the Phoenix Bird. Estes Challenger II (D-powered booster for the Astrocam 110), Maniac, the two stage Long Shot, then Eliminator (so this is actually the fifth incarnation).


As far as why Estes made the deal with NCR, well, I'm sure Tunick decided there might be some money to be made in midpower, or at least that Estes should be in that market. At the time, Aerotech had done OK with its kit and motor line in hobby stores. Scott Dixon, of Vulcan Motors, helped Estes with the motors, as did Matt Steele, and since NCR's basic line, of the Big Brute, Phantom 4000, Archer, Eliminator (more like the current(?) Executioner), Lance Beta, Bomarc, and Patriot fit in well with the Estes line, it seemed like a pretty good match.

Why it didn't last, well, that is a slight mystery. There was apparently a contract dispute between Tunick and Steele (though for Matt's part, he doesn't discuss it much), that sealed the fate of the company for a few years, though now apparently Matt has full rights to NCR again.

I can't say how well the rocket line sold, as you could find them in some hobby shops for a few years after it shut down. The more established Aerotech motors wouldn't fit in them, as the Estes/NCR models used a slightly smaller motor mount tube. The Estes motor supply dried up in a hurry as the result of the grass fire in 1999 that consumed their AP and HTPB supplies as well as, supposedly, the mold for the casing, which is a shame because the DarkStar motors were quite nice... at least the ones that were released!

Maybe Matt will chime in here and discuss it, though I wouldn't hold my breath!

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Roy
nar12605

The Estes lantern battery launch pads were designed with the battery laying on its side. The Centuri Powr Pad design had the battery standing up and the pad had a carry handle. These were totally different designs other than using the same power source. Later on when Centuri started becoming an Estes clone, the laid down version appeared in their catalogs and sales fliers. I think that was around 1981. To the best of my recollection, Estes never offered the vertically standing Powr Pad, unless they offered it in a clearance sale after Centuri disappeared.

Ok, that's right... Estes laid the battery over, the early Centuri pad was a vertical battery... but as for who copied who with the lay-down battery since they were both using it at the last.... I dunno. I DO know that if you look at that last Centuri catalog (83 perhaps?) it's a virtual carbon copy of Estes's catalog, same symbology, fonts, production, layout, etc. only the product is different (except the Pola-pulse/Power pulse launchers.)

Seems like Estes has 'swallowed' quite a few rocket companies down thru the years... Centuri, Vashon, NCR...

As Spock would say... "Fascinating" OL JR

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Didn't know about the Longshot... have to look that one up.

I could have sworn I saw the Phoenix Bird/Challenger II/Eliminator in another catalog from either Estes or Centuri somewhere in that time period and wearing a different name... maybe in an Estes newsletter or something right about the time of the Centuri merger... when Estes had access to it but before the products were 'integrated' into the Estes lineup... but I can't seem to find it now for the life of me...

I really like the Challenger II/Eliminator, (though I hated the Maniac name/decals and the Eliminator's garish colors aren't much better) Where can I find this "Long shot" version of it, since I two-staged one of my Maniacs and I'm curious if I did what they did... OL JR

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Estes had the horizontal version as early as 1976 so they had the horizontal version first.

The vertical Centuri version was available before 1976, so we could say that Estes copied Centuri's idea of a 6V lantern battery as a launch platform, but carried it out differently.

I forgot about it myself. Longshot

I don't know if I would say that Bill was 'behind' the development of the FSI 18mm motors.

Bill told me the story many years, ago.

Bill and his dad (G. Harry) had been running down leads on the old MPC plastic molds and motor making machines.

Bill found the molds and they had been maintained in a climate controlled storage facility. These were used to make parts for the initial line of Quest kits.

Bill was a week or two late in locating the MPC motor making machines (There were two machines for making 18mm motors and one for making the 13mm motors) as FSI I gotten there first.

However, there was no documentation with the motor machines. FSI hooked up one of the machines and turned it on. The result was the machine blowing apart as they did not know the correct air pressure settings.

Enter Bill Stine with the machine operating manual (Courtesey of G. Harry). Bill made a deal with FSI where Bill would supply the motor machine manual in exchange for FSI using the MPC machines to make motors for Quest.

Since making motors for Quest did not require the machines running all the time, FSI decided to use the same machines to produce 18mm motors for FSI. I recall speaking to Harold Reese about this and he told me that the machines could turn out enough 18mm motors for FSI that a day's production would last many months.

FSI had tried years earlier to produce 18mm motors but had not been successful. These MPC motor machines gave then the ability to enter the 18mm motor market.

Interestingly, the FSI motors made with the machines used large, chunky pieces of clay/powder for their nozzles while Quest used the fine/white powder to make nozzles for their motors.

Now, as for stories of old motor making machines returning from the dead, while I was at AeroTech, we located the Cox motor making machine in a scrap yard outside of Los Angeles. It was still 90% intact and in pretty good shape. The manufacturer was still in business and we were pretty sure that we could get the original blueprints/manual for it.

Gary Rosenfield and Paul Hans made a trip out to the scrap yard and took pictures of it. The scrap yard was willing to let it go for the cost of shipping. That cost was $10K. Aerotech didn't have the cash at the time and the machine was scrapped.

Hmm, black powder AeroTech A, B, C & D motors. We'll never know...

Bob

Bob, . Your description sounds to me that Bill Stine had a substantial role in the FSI motos being manufactured. Thats what I meant . If you want to disagree with me with the way i phrased It then thats fine. I'll try to be more precise in the future with the words and the way I phrase them .



terry dean

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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.