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  #11  
Old 05-10-2007, 12:08 AM
James Pierson James Pierson is offline
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Thumbs up I agree,

Quote:
johnnwwa

So If the instruction booklets take so long to produce what is the solution to the problem.
Streamline the booklets
Review and change the method of producing instructions booklets
Invest in new or better software programs to do the same job. i.e easier faster
How about some POSITVE INPUT . You have a better Idea lets here it.


I totally agree. Why do we have to be so detailed about the instructions? If anyone have ever built a Launch Pad mid power kit you know that the instruction are only 2-3 pages, in a very simple format, with a small detailed drawing and thats all. I can see a kit like the Satun 1B needing alot more but not many other designs. Besides if a design gets too complicated no one will built it, so it should be changed to simplify the building process for the builder.
What I was really hoping for here at SVDT was a pool of clip art and text to draw from so that all designers could more effiecently create thier own instruction. Also the big one is the expert advice and review that comes form all the team members.

My 2 cents:

James Pierson
NAR# 77907
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  #12  
Old 05-10-2007, 12:15 AM
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A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Pierson
Besides if a design gets too complicated no one will built it, so it should be changed to simplify the building process for the builder.


Nah, I'll give it a try. Complicated instructions just make the finished product that much more of a source of pride.
Plus, when I finish a kit whose instructions are known to be complicated, EVERYONE knows they can do it.

"Arf, arf, arf. That's my other dog impression."
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Bill Eichelberger
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http://wallyum.blogspot.com/

I miss being SAM 0058

On the build floor: Estes - ESAM-58, Semroc Squire

In paint: RDC V-Max, Centuri Stellar Hercules

Looking for the decal: Estes Goblin

Ready to fly: Estes Astron Farside X, Estes Astron Apogee, FRW Star Jart, Semroc Cherokee D, Semroc SLS Scorpion
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  #13  
Old 05-10-2007, 07:00 AM
Sheryl@Semroc Sheryl@Semroc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Pierson
I'll do it.
I just got a new box of crayons . It will be quick and painless as long I don't keep breaking them.

James Pierson
NAR# 77907


I love that idea. Wish it was that simple. Had a good laugh to start my day. Thank you James.

Sheryl
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  #14  
Old 05-10-2007, 07:18 AM
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barone barone is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Pierson
I totally agree. Why do we have to be so detailed about the instructions? If anyone have ever built a Launch Pad mid power kit you know that the instruction are only 2-3 pages, in a very simple format, with a small detailed drawing and thats all. I can see a kit like the Satun 1B needing alot more but not many other designs. Besides if a design gets too complicated no one will built it, so it should be changed to simplify the building process for the builder.
What I was really hoping for here at SVDT was a pool of clip art and text to draw from so that all designers could more effiecently create thier own instruction. Also the big one is the expert advice and review that comes form all the team members.

My 2 cents:

James Pierson
NAR# 77907
Okay....here's some change....
The instructions need to be detailed enough that someone who has never built a rocket can use them. Sure, some of us who have been building for years don't even use the instructions (was Bill mentioned ). But the producer has to also target the novice. And the Semroc instructions aren't just instructions, they're a history lesson. So, I don't think changing the format is a solution but maybe changing how it's all brought together. Maybe some generic instructions (as James stated) that apply to most rockets that can be cut and pasted into the instructions (the same with generic drawings). Then, perhaps, those who wish a particular kit to be manufactured, obtain the software (or one that can be imported into what ever Carl is using) and start writing. That opens the writing staff from maybe one (I don't know who writes the instructions for Carl) to potentially hundreds. Of course, a format would need to be developed for everyone to use so all the instructions follow a basic one. And a list of who's writing what so there isn't a duplication of effort (also allows some collaboration among members). And of course, coordination with Carl to make sure there are or are existing parts for the kit. Heck, it may not be even finacially viable to kit a model with instructions.

I guess the bottom line is simply if the instructions are the biggest hurdle to producing a kit, then we are a resource that can be used to get them written. Just give us the generic stuff, a format, and a way to coordinate the work and I believe the members of this forum can make it happen.
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  #15  
Old 05-10-2007, 10:15 PM
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Tau Zero Tau Zero is offline
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Thumbs up "And now, for something completely different..."

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnwwa
Let's start a conversation about new Semroc (Centuri ) kits. [SNIP]

Sky Devil #3040

Excalibur

Groove tube

No. 8 Booster Unit.

I have many more wants as far as kits go but these three pretty simple kits could be added to the Semroc line in a fairly short period of time. Maybe within a years time
John,

Perhaps a quicker way to get these out would be to do "cc" (Carbon Copy) versions where the parts are already kitted up, and all you have to do is download the instructions from, say, JimZ or Ye Olde Rocket Plans (YORP).

That's probably the easiest way to do it, and frankly, the only "around the bush" alternative to having to Start From Zero.


As far as my earlier comments are concerned, they weren't intended as negative, but realistic. (I'm a TV reporter. I can spot "negative" in *real* short order. )

Heck, I'm your Positive Spin Guy.

Cheers,
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Jay Goemmer
"Centuri Guy"/"Tau Zero"
Semroc SAM #0029
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“Centuri fret buzz in an updated form.”
Bill “Wallyum” Eichelberger re: Estes Flutter-By
03 Sept 2014
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  #16  
Old 05-10-2007, 11:37 PM
johnnwwa johnnwwa is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CenturiGuy
John,

Perhaps a quicker way to get these out would be to do "cc" (Carbon Copy) versions where the parts are already kitted up, and all you have to do is download the instructions from, say, JimZ or Ye Olde Rocket Plans (YORP).

That's probably the easiest way to do it, and frankly, the only "around the bush" alternative to having to Start From Zero.


As far as my earlier comments are concerned, they weren't intended as negative, but realistic. (I'm a TV reporter. I can spot "negative" in *real* short order. )

Heck, I'm your Positive Spin Guy.

Cheers,


Centuri Guy
Understand thanks.

I have been thinking along similar lines only keep the instructions in house under a password or the like so the buyer of a kits can go to Semroc and download the kit instructions. I think you need to maintain some control over who can and who can't download the instructions. Atleast until the kit goes OOP . Then JimZ or YORP would have a file PDF etc. .
But you still have to create the first set of instructions.

BAR
John
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  #17  
Old 05-10-2007, 11:50 PM
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A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnwwa
Centuri Guy
Understand thanks.

I have been thinking along similar lines only keep the instructions in house under a password or the like so the buyer of a kits can go to Semroc and download the kit instructions. I think you need to maintain some control over who can and who can't download the instructions. Atleast until the kit goes OOP . Then JimZ or YORP would have a file PDF etc. .
But you still have to create the first set of instructions.

BAR
John


Madcow does just the opposite. You can go and download the kit instructions before you ever make a purchase. Seems to me that having the ability to go over the instructions would help a prospective buyer decide if the kit was in their skill range or over their head.
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Bill Eichelberger
NAR 79563

http://wallyum.blogspot.com/

I miss being SAM 0058

On the build floor: Estes - ESAM-58, Semroc Squire

In paint: RDC V-Max, Centuri Stellar Hercules

Looking for the decal: Estes Goblin

Ready to fly: Estes Astron Farside X, Estes Astron Apogee, FRW Star Jart, Semroc Cherokee D, Semroc SLS Scorpion
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  #18  
Old 05-11-2007, 12:30 AM
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Carl@Semroc Carl@Semroc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnwwa
Let's start a conversation about new Semroc (Centuri ) kits.

Sky Devil #3040
Several of the fin choices lend themselves too much to breakage. We also have not done a non-laser-cut fin yet! That mnight really confuse someone.
Quote:
Excalibur
Great looking kit. It on our list. I have an Excalibur II, but not the single only version. Ours will probably be balsa instead of fiber. I also have an SLS Excalibur in the works.
Quote:
Groove tube
Another that was in the works, but it is marginally stable. Trying to avoid that again.
Quote:
No. 8 Booster Unit.
Have one of these and have BOM, but loss of almost all booster engines put our two-stage stuff on hold.
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  #19  
Old 05-11-2007, 12:48 AM
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Initiator001 Initiator001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
I have an Excalibur II, but not the single only version. Ours will probably be balsa instead of fiber. I also have an SLS Excalibur in the works.


Yes and YES!!!

An SLS Excalibur! Details, please.

It will use an ST-20 with laser cut fin slots for the lower body tube (hint, hint)?

Bob "Just building ANOTHER Nike Ram clone" Sanford
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  #20  
Old 05-11-2007, 12:59 AM
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Carl@Semroc Carl@Semroc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barone
Okay....here's some change....
The instructions need to be detailed enough that someone who has never built a rocket can use them. Sure, some of us who have been building for years don't even use the instructions (was Bill mentioned ). But the producer has to also target the novice. And the Semroc instructions aren't just instructions, they're a history lesson.
One of the things that struck me about the early instructions was that they were written in the "Heath-kit" style so ANYONE could put the kit together. It is much too detailed for someone that has built a few kits, but most experienced modelers just look at the pictures anyway. The "history lesson" sometimes takes the most time doing the research. Some, like the Aerobee-Hi, took several days looking through old literature to find missing details. But the lesson is important to me. There are kits and people and companies behind the kits that I want to be remembered.
Quote:
So, I don't think changing the format is a solution but maybe changing how it's all brought together. Maybe some generic instructions (as James stated) that apply to most rockets that can be cut and pasted into the instructions (the same with generic drawings). Then, perhaps, those who wish a particular kit to be manufactured, obtain the software (or one that can be imported into what ever Carl is using) and start writing. That opens the writing staff from maybe one (I don't know who writes the instructions for Carl)
So far, Carl does!
Quote:
to potentially hundreds. Of course, a format would need to be developed for everyone to use so all the instructions follow a basic one. And a list of who's writing what so there isn't a duplication of effort (also allows some collaboration among members). And of course, coordination with Carl to make sure there are or are existing parts for the kit. Heck, it may not be even finacially viable to kit a model with instructions.

I guess the bottom line is simply if the instructions are the biggest hurdle to producing a kit, then we are a resource that can be used to get them written. Just give us the generic stuff, a format, and a way to coordinate the work and I believe the members of this forum can make it happen.
Craig and Jay have a pretty good idea what it takes. It is easy to get bogged down in details. Most of my time is spent creating an accurate model of all the parts in 3D Studio Max and then doing a RockSim version. All the 2D drawings now are done with a plug-in to 3DSM that generates the illustrations. As an example, it took weeks to input every ring, tube, laser-cut part, etc. for the Mars Lander and the Saturn 1B. The actual illustrations took about ten minutes each to output and clean up with PaintShop Pro or CorelDraw. In our early days, each drawing was done by hand, taking sometimes a half a day for each one. We have come a long way! It actually took less time to do the illustrations for the Mars Lander than it did for the Hydra VII.

The final edit of instructions may be a good place for using the talent in this group. After I am through with each set of instructions, Bruce and Sheryl go over them, building a model from them and checking for "continuity." Problems at this point are things like a drawing that shows a launch lug, many steps before it is glued on. Tom Beach found the missing step on the Mars Lander where the bottom of the launch lug was cut off. That required going back through many pictures to remove the extra 1 inch of launch lug that was not supposed to be there. It also changed the cover art, which showed the protruding launch lug! Extra eyes and grey matter is always welcome and appreciated.
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