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  #21  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frognbuff
By definition, the verniers are hinged (2D motion) not gimbaled (3D motion).

I did say pivot, so forgive me. However, I blame it all on George. He said it first.
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  #22  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frognbuff
The buckets are actually mounted in the exact same spot on each strap-on booster - just oriented so the attached hose or electrical cord is pointed "up." I just wish we could see where the OTHER end of that hose/cord goes. Might help us to divine their purpose!

They go into the component that has the silver blanket material on it. Whatever that component is, there is more than one on each booster, but only one has the bucket/hose attachment.

I found it without the blanket. I still don't have a clue. I'll search for a more detailed shot.
http://www.collectspace.com/news/ne...0th-livery.html

And this shot has a bucket on the core booster.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...ster_rocket.jpg
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:33 PM
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Ah - so there IS one on the core - just not visible in that first photo!
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frognbuff
Ah - so there IS one on the core - just not visible in that first photo!

Possibly, but I've seen some shots without one on the core and some with no cans on any of the boosters, like the one George posted.
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  #25  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:45 PM
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It plugs in to one of these service modules (no clue to the actual name for it). I'm not sure if the crumpled one at the bottom is identical to the one in good condition. It seems to be placed a tad closer to the front edge of that subsection, but it could look that way due to crumpling.

https://img.17qq.com/images/npmdmlc...refresh26966549


I'm almost tempted to think the can could be a filter for stuff going into the boosters, like moisture filters on airbrushes. However, the hose on the bottom of the can doesn't seem to have any fittings to attach to anything, so I've abandoned that idea.
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  #26  
Old 04-09-2021, 01:50 PM
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Maybe we’re over thinking this (yeah I know, hard to believe). Maybe the buckets are just for putting “Remove Before Flight” items into after they’re removed.

OR

Maybe they’re part of the LES system—just in case they have to “bail”.
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  #27  
Old 04-09-2021, 03:53 PM
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The buckets contain sand and a really big plastic scoop.
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  #28  
Old 04-09-2021, 04:00 PM
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It's a BIG BUKKET of something alright....
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  #29  
Old 04-09-2021, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
The US program's most famous (easily visible) verniers were on the Atlas, but also on the Thor. They were used to control roll because the main engine could only control pitch and yaw. The Soyuz verniers control everything.


Interestingly, on the Atlas, the verniers really were "verniers", for fine adjustment. The Atlas shut down the main engine a tiny bit early, before the intended final velocity was achieved. So the verniers kept firing to achieve exactly the velocity desired ot hit the target.

So, yeah, when I called those "small gimbaled engines" on the Soyuz verniers.....that was not being precise because they only serve for steering, not final velocity control. It is something many of us are familiar with from the Altas heritage.

Actually.....come to think of it..... it *IS* possible that for the original single stage (OK, stage-and-a-half) R-7 Semyorka ICBM version, the center core stage could have shut down the main 4-engine chambered engine first, and kept the little ones going as precision velocity verniers. But, I think that those little steering engines used the same main turbopump as the main engine, in which case that would not have allowed them to be used that way. No time to look it up but I'm more than 90% sure it was all or nothing (all running or none running).
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  #30  
Old 04-09-2021, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by georgegassaway
Interestingly, on the Atlas, the verniers really were "verniers", for fine adjustment. The Atlas shut down the main engine a tiny bit early, before the intended final velocity was achieved. So the verniers kept firing to achieve exactly the velocity desired ot hit the target.

So, yeah, when I called those "small gimbaled engines" on the Soyuz verniers.....that was not being precise because they only serve for steering, not final velocity control. It is something many of us are familiar with from the Altas heritage.

Actually.....come to think of it..... it *IS* possible that for the original single stage (OK, stage-and-a-half) R-7 Semyorka ICBM version, the center core stage could have shut down the main 4-engine chambered engine first, and kept the little ones going as precision velocity verniers. But, I think that those little steering engines used the same main turbopump as the main engine, in which case that would not have allowed them to be used that way. No time to look it up but I'm more than 90% sure it was all or nothing (all running or none running).


China did this too for the CZ-2-series space launchers. The second stage uses a single, large, fixed engine and a four-chamber Vernier engine, on which the nozzles are hinged. The main engine shuts down early and the verniers continue firing to fine tune the orbit insertion. No doubt the same is done on the CSS-4 ICBM (same set up), where careful release of the RV enhances accuracy.
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