What is the name of that German company that Quest outsourced to ?

Dave F.

at one time in the 80's it was WECO.....I think WECO eventually became Klima.

Saxon Fireworks (Saschen Feurwerks -- later WECO) . Same one MRC outsourced to. I don't think they were making model rocket motors back in 1971. Hard to find original info about Saxon as that is also the name of a type of firework. I don't know if they merged with WECO or if WECO just started also supplying Quest after Saxon folded.

The type of nozzle and clay composition made me think back in the day that MPC was making the Cox motors all along.. 1. does anyone have a Cox motor with a manufacture date later than 6/11/71? 2. does anyone have a Cox motor with a nozzle significantly different than the ones made before 6/11/71?

No, WECO is a BIG company, and the only fireworks manufacturer in Germany left.

KLIMA is probably a WECO dealer, but they make their own rocket motors.

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22...HSIJA9MQ4dUDCAw


Dave F.

Yes, not really a great deal of information there.

I figured it might be a good starting point.

Dave F.

The company WECO was founded in September 1948 by Mr. Hermann Weber under the name "PYRO-CHEMIE, HERMANN WEBER & CO." In Eitorf.

Initially, they specialized in the production of sparklers. From 1954, the company concentrated on the production of large, small and stage fireworks and technical items.

Today, WECO is the only fireworks company in Europe with substantial in-house production capacities. At the German locations in Eitorf, Freiberg and Kiel, around 40 percent of total sales are produced in-house.

The product range of our own production includes rockets, fireworks batteries, volcanoes, cannon strikes, rubbing head crackers, sparklers, table fireworks, crackers as well as a wide range of large and stage fireworks and some technical items. Weco Feuerwerk is the market leader on the German and European market and sees itself as an innovation leader in the field of fireworks. An average of more than 50 new products per year are developed at the German locations. Constant product improvements are a matter of course for WECO.

Weco is primarily geared towards the decentralized delivery of the main target groups discounters, large and small-scale food retailers, self-service chains as well as wholesalers and specialist retailers. In addition, the company is increasingly active in export. These include the foreign subsidiaries in France, England, Croatia, Slovenia and Switzerland as well as the partner companies in Austria and the Netherlands.

Weco is not only characterized by its high-quality and effective New Year's Eve fireworks, but has also made a name for itself in Germany, Europe and the world through its expertise in music-synchronized large-scale fireworks. In 2000 the world championship was won for the first time at the Great Fireworks World Championships in Montreal. In 2004, the company finally won the anniversary competition in Montreal and is henceforth known as the “world champion of world champions”. The company WECO has been organizing the "Cologne Lights" annually since 2001, which is one of the largest fireworks events in Germany with over 1 million enthusiastic visitors.


Via an MBO, the company was handed over from Mr. Frank Weber-Picard in 2003 to Mr. Thomas Schreiber and Dieter Kuchheuser, who had been managing director since 1998. Today the company is run exclusively by managing partners. The current management consists of Mr. Thomas Schreiber, Mr. Thomas Kahn and Mr. Jürgen Bluhm.

Today, WECO employs around 400 people worldwide and, with a market share of over 65 percent, is not only the industry leader in Germany, but also the only company that still manufactures fireworks in Germany itself - and with high quality "Made in Germany".

More detail;

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WECO_Feuerwerk

Yea, not really anything we didn't know 15 years ago and nothing relevant to what we're discussing. Neither is the following. I have a letter from WECO in German to someone, I know not who, explaining that WECO would make a single production run in 2005 for this niche market (i.e. European rocketeers), and that they would no longer be exporting to USA (apparently after which Bill turned to the Chinese manufacturer). I think I got this from Oliver Missbach's old website.
Enjoy.

As I see it, the relevancy depends on who "we" consists of. Not everyone has the same "history" on the subject and a "newcomer" to this thread might have the piece of information to help answer the question(s) at hand. Frankly, we may never know the answer, but it's worth investigating.

Dave F.

Fair enough. So, MRC motors became available in 1986-88? I first saw them in a Rose's Department Store in Athens, GA in 1988. These were the Saxon-made motors, so Saxon must have made them for their domestic market sometime before that, or did they even have a domestic market. I can't find my Stuart Lodge book to ascertain what motors were available in the UK at that time. From what I can tell the blue card export motors from Estes were the only fully commercial motors available anywhere in Europe before that. If you don't count those low thrust Rapier motors for hand launched gliders. There's a german company called Held which I find little about (i think they are mentioned in Lodge's book) and they had a C2 or 3, and a D7. But they weren't a big concern. And all the other euro motor makers were small niche, competition market players.

Speaking of Held motors...had these in a box that I could pull put easily

They are booster motors, the BP ends just a few mm from the top. They are dated from 1981; there are I think 5 in the box (sold in a 10 pack), but I’ve never tried to launch them.

Ohhhhh......I like the boost/rocket glider on the box cover

Heh, great minds think alike :D

Not German, But Czech...
 

.. and in the same general area if you look at a map and squint.


Just curious if anyone here has actually flown any of the Adast motors back in the day? Bill Spadafora mounted one in the NAR test stand ( See this link:
< https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/sho...highlight=adast > ) and in the same thread, someone mentioned that these were known as the 'Widow Makers', but I seem to remember it was different motor that earned that dubious moniker, and that the Adast were pretty stable.
Can anyone confirm or deny?

The "Widow Makers" were 10 nt-sec motors in fiberglass casings. I have one in an ammo can buried under other ammo cans. But, I digress.
I believe the propellant was neither black powder nor composite. It was also unstable after time. I will dig it out if no one else had one easily available.

Chas

I’d love to see photo’s...

Tried to resize this. The Czech "Widow Maker" is the pale fiberglas motor on the top right.

Will try to get individual pics with nozzle. Propellant was sort of green.

Chas

Trip Barber published some info on the Adast "Widow Maker" in the 1972 MIT Journal. Some test data and diagrams. The Adast 10-2.1- 5 equivalent to a C15-5 was composed of Potassium Picrate, Ammonium Perchlorate and Nitrocellulose. Quite a concoction! No wonder it was called "Widow Maker" Chas if I was you I'd take the Widow Maker and put it somewhere safe to you. :eek:

Oh, very nice collection.

If it's the motor I'm thinking of, it burned about 5 seconds and was only a 7ns motor! Think of our Estes C motors which are around 8.8ns with the thrust drawn out to 5 seconds. That even seems iffy in a glider! :eek:

I'm not sure that is enough power to keep anything over a Guillow's Sleek Streek airborne.

That's what I thought when I read it.
https://www.pyroweb.de/raketenmotor...000-10er-schtl/

These Held sound like the old Czech rapiers. They were long/low thrust.

Those would have been less useful than a FSI F7 smoke bomb.

The Rapiers are pretty cool - I have a few of the 18 second burn motors.
They’re used in hand tossed gliders:

https://youtu.be/s-gk5WMylao

I could do that all day with small hand launched BG. KLIMA said they may consider making these at some future date. It's too bad somebody here in the US would make these. They aren't considered fireworks or model rocket motors here according to the CPSC.

(10) Solid fuel pellets intended for use in miniature jet engines for propelling model jet airplanes, speed boats, racing cars, and similar models, provided such solid fuel pellets:

(i) Weigh not more than 11.5 grams each.

(ii) Are coated with a protective resinous film.

(iii) Contain not more than 35 percent potassium dichromate.

(iv) Produce a maximum thrust of not more than 7 1/2 ounces when used as directed.

(v) Burn not longer than 12 seconds each when used as directed.

I think 7.5 oz is about 2.0 N. The biggest Rapiers had about 1 5 ad much thrust.

I'm not sure these build up enough pressure to cato.

Those are similar to mine, though mine have a gray nozzle, not red. Mine are 2.5ns as well. Jim Kukowski got them as part of an Alfa kit, at the first world championships in Dubnica in 66. I bought the kit at a Cannon auction. Gave the kit to Carl at NARAM-50 (but not before Lee Piester stopped me in the hotel lobby when he saw the kit in my hand), but kept the motors. Carl was going to make a retro-repro kit to support the US FAI team. Never got the kit back from him.

These should be regular black powder motors. From what I've been told, the "Widow makers" are a different size and materials.