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vintage HPR plans / info
Might be beating an old horse ehre - some of these I have begged for in the past :)
Currently working on my ongoing research for old / early HPR designs / plans. Specifically, my wish list includes : Astro Dynamics - ANY Eagle Aerospace - ANY XPRS ( Xperimental Rocket Systems ) - ANY SSRS / Crown - LASOR 164 , Spartan, Unicorn Pro- Jet / Composite Dynamics - Starfire Stargate - Aero-Ram ACE - Fugue , ALLEGRO LARGO ( desperate for this one , Lucerne Special , ? Squid Model Aviation Fuels - Sentry, Minotaur I have a few plans for trade, info available, so send requests ... looking to save the info for posterity, and build some of these LDRS 1 candidates ~ AL Swackhammer Tripoli 090 |
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Hey Al. There is an Astro Dynamics ad on the back of a CRm in I think June of 82 or 83 from which you can gleen some info. I don't have much. On the CD Starfire, is that the backward fin rocket or the BT-9 minimum diameter one? If the former, there is an ad showing it for CD t-shirts in CRm I forget the date, and it was a BT-70HD 17.5 inches long and the foam ogive 2.5:1 nose cone. I can post a NC photo if you don't already have that. Stargate got its start from the parts rubble of CD so that tube is also BT-70HD (almost exact USR BT-22 modern tube), and they ran an ad for that rocket in CRm so you ought to be able to get fin sizes and shapes by measuring photos or drawings and scaling to known part dimensions like tube OD 2.25" for example. The Ace Fugue is a BT-23 and is 34" long with a 6" base shroud to BT-11 and a 5:1 handmade redwood nose cone. The Pinnacle cones are close but the tube diameters are not. The fins are triangular with the rear trailing edge convex curved a bit (90 degrees at each intersection). There may be photos in early CRm's. The Squid is easy to duplicate because it uses an Estes PNC-80 (alpha) and a BT-80-34 HD and 8 18" x 1/4" dowels and there are good photos to replicate it. http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm/4-83/CRm.4-83.26.w.gif The Allegro Largo I seem to recall used 4x BT-18 to a single BT-39. The BT-18's would be 34" again, two BT-39's at 34" and a 16" handmade 2x2" redwood core, balsa exterior nose cone. Thus a redwood tip. :D I think it used scaled up Fugue fins ala the Chromatic Fantasy. BT-39 is 3.90" ID x 050 wall BT-23 is 2.34" one or the other 050 wall BT-18 is 1.80" ID x 050 wall BT-70HD is 2.175" ID and 040 wall BT-80HD is I forget the ID and 040 wall http://www.v-serv.com/crp/CRm Jerry TRA 012 blackballed by the same guy that blackballed Scott Dixon and others. TRA refuses to apologize, and they are wrong to do so. |
Jerry.
Good to see you alive n kickin' :) .. suppose if anyone has historical HPR stuff it might be you - although who thought to make patterns and detailed notes back then, I know we didn't. :( going to comment inline below... Quote:
~ AL TRA 090 |
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Perspective matters. Ace was already becoming somewhat popular in what would later be called HPR in 1978. TRA didn't really get going till 85-86, and NAR of course banned anything resembling HPR. The latest post by Trip Barber extolls the virtues of HPR and warns against being biased against one form of sport rocketry over another. My how times have changed. Everything that guy touches turns to gold. Jerry |
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The pattern I drew for the t-shirt ad (in dragon photo first 3 issues or so) was from a fin! Quote:
Larry Broadbent made accurate drawings for his CRm ads. They are accurate. Quote:
I vaguely recall 9" length for the fins. CR not at shroud inflection point to allow for the roots to go up in a bit. There is a photo in CRm #1 with Gary and Melodi holding a black Ace Fugue. Quote:
The angle is measurable on the photo I gave you. The rear of the tube had a ring and there was another ring about 2" or so up on the BT-11 mount, so that distance, whatever it really was, set the angle. Use a reamer to start the holes. They become elipsoid by force. Secret Ace Squid production info posted in public. ;) Quote:
That's right, three not 4. Whatever fits comfortably. The 1.8" is an egglofter tube BTW. It later became the basis for 54mm casting tube. Korey was a heavy 1.5" 38mm advocate and felt it should be mass-market. He is right. I popularized the size, had motors made to it by IBCo and others and it was of course copied by others. The Allegro Largo was for 29mm motors, such as the CD G62 or the EJ G76. There were a limited number of CD#1 H's still and IBCo was really there with the 29mm H160 and 38mm I200 as flown at LDRS-1 years later. There were some Crown/SSRS H's as well but not many. Quote:
NCR were "bad clones" and should be ignored for all historical purposes. The EJ tube is 2.25 x 2.34 hence the 2250 designation. Ace was 2.34 ID and did not slide in. It was 050 wall. BTW EJ 2650 was 2.65" ID and about 2.74" OD. Minimax style. Quote:
Semroc is close. LOC went the route of being as proprietary as possible. They have 2.15" ID 54mm not 2.175, 1.52" ID (a good size), 2.54, 3.00, 3.90. Nose cones to fit. They all have similar thick walls IIRC. PML and others cloned their sizes so there is compatibility there. USR BT-22 2.175" fits 3x24mm USR BT-26 2.60" fits 4x24mm and 3x29mm Quote:
Same ID as BT-80 but thicker wall, hence BT-80 HD. Hey Estes, wanna sell me 1000 PNC-80 alpha? Just hysterical Jerry - er historical IBCo had the first I69 in history . . . . 38mm |
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Will see what I can do about the chicks. ;) agree re: perspective... and what is considered HPR, I was in on the near ground floor, idolizing the west coast crazies, and flying 4-5-10 D12 clusters circa 1979-80, along with the occasional Pro-Jet or SSRS motor ( cash was short then ) . Way before Tripoli got rolling ( my first LDRS was 4, however ) . Do recal the 'who flew the G ' ( and some flew at our local NAR meets too, just we were small section ;) . I also started making motors in about 85 or 86 with tech help from undisclosed source ;) . taboo even in Tripoli for many years. Thanks again for any help / scans / info - I'd love to save this while info exists, not wait til it's even more obscure / lost to try and dig it up for 'hpr-yorp' . ~ AL |
Historical side note. John Davis of CD (#2) tasked Roger Johnson and I to sell Pro-Jets to every hobby store in the west. He did norcal and I did socal. We sold thousands of motors and it was an impressive accomplishment. These were mainly 24mm E20, E45, F20 and 29mm F45. The 18mm D was not prime time. The 160 N-s G was California compatible interestingly but was forsaken by NAR. The CD 18mm D was CA certified but not NAR certified ironically so they were sold as boutique motors. We sold a lot more G's. :D
Jerry |
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Jerry, I bought a bunch of CD parts from Larry Broadbent back in the day. The foam nose cones were pretty cool and I think Larry was actually pouring those himself. The last pour it looked like he just poured the foam into a tube coupler to finish the shoulder off. He did have a good stock of CD parts though and I built a few clones with tubes and parts I purchased directly from him and had good email conversations with him. The 2250 clone he sold me parts for was actually a reduced size and was much the same as the NCR kit for 3x24mm motors. He did include nice reproductions of the EnerJet 2250 and 2650 scale drawings from Gary R. and a scan of the 2250 instructions. Only other drawings I had were stamped with AAA on them from Al Andrake so it was nice to have a clean copy. I was excited to have that because very little information was available to me at the time when I built those first EnerJet clones ..... Wish I had access to all the cool motors you guys were flying out on the west coast in the 80's. All I could get my hands on were the SSRS/Crown E and F motors direct from Mark Mahyle and FSI was plentiful at the LHS. :( |
I haven't heard from Larry for a few years. I wonder what he's up to?
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The 2250 had motor tubes far too big to fit in the main tube so had to be squished to fit. The NCR "clone" and the Stargate "clone" are NOT 2250's. Very little information was available to anyone. I think I did better than most because my parents drove me to Indian School Road in Phoenix one summer where I bought stuff directly from Lee. I figure in hindsight he was basically making kits from scratch in the back for me as I waited. I got some F67's, G76's a 2250, a 2650, a 1340, and a few stock Enerjet kits as well. That was the only reliable way to get real literature because he was basically going into the rare files to pull something out quick to look professional. The fin patterns were hand drawn on balsa by pencil in arbitrary spots for example. The Rosenfield drawings are the best data that ever existed for those kits. Jerry |
thanks for the cone pics. I still have none of each of those meself - and a mold of the resin cone - not been able to match the hue of the originals though - HObby poixy would be close but no longer made. and advise ?
2 - do you recall, re: the Stargate AeroRam, were the find through the wall ? As noted, I had one, lost ages ago , and don't recall ( think I have close enough pattern from the CRm ads, and a pic I found online of John Holboe with one ) . just need to know if ttw or not ( not like anyone can tell on a builtup version anyways ;) 3 - Jerry.... specific question regarding your Mega-roc initial release. Both CRm ads, and the vintage ( arange cover sheet ) USR catalog I have show the Megaroc with appears to be a Pershing cone. also pics of your I200 flight at LDRS-1 . Was this just the prototype ? or were kits shipped with Pershing cones ? ( or Ace ? ) I have an original USR Mongrel I got , iirc, from Steve Buck at LDRS-6, needs some repairs, so thinking Mega-Roc 'clone', ( and I have a nice Alien Enterprises fiberglass Pershingcone, too, so :) . Thanks for the help, will have more questions later- going through all my CRm issues and HPR now .. Happy HOlidays. ~ AL |
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Sil-Pak in Pomona, CA has the clear amber resin you want. Since they are just a urethanes supplier there is one locally to you as well. I don't know if the Stargate AeroRam was through the wall, sorry. The Mega-Roc was released with the Estes Pershing nose cone and many were shipped with them repurposed from crashed rockets, purchased from Estes, purchased from dealers. It was later superceeded by the Ace PNC-39 nose cone, still the best BT-39 nose cone ever made. The Mongrel was using the Estes V-2 nose cone. Not many were shipped with Ace nose cones. The modern version uses a PML nose cone. Kinda handy to have all those old CRm's online, eh? Just Merry Jerry |
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Thanks for the insight, Jerry. We can hope that the new Estes will put out sport models designed around these cones so that they may remain available. Bill |
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The 3:1 ogive BT-101 nose cone is a classic and they should not only bring it back but make permutations of kits with it. Preferably with a thicker 030 or better tube wall not 013 or 020. They should also make a 3" ID tube and cone so they fit all the other thicker tubes out there. Maybe put a flourish at the top of the tube on the kit necessitating a cone compatible with a thicker wall also. That way when Estes some day re-releases 29mm motors, they are ready for prime time with no new tooling costs. And a multi-cavity mold so the per part cost is far cheaper for goodness sake. Santa Claus |
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You think Santa makes the eleves run after his rocket launches? I'll bet he has pristine originals of all the classics... :D |
What happened to Ace?
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Is it possible we will ever see Ace nose cones ever again? Wasn't Ace started by a guy named Korey Kline? What became of him and his company? - Rich |
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I don't know where the mold is, possibly with Gary or Anthony. Korey has moved on to the medical manufacturing field. Ace Rockets faded out of existence after LDRS really got started (3-4-5). Ace Rockets of San Fernando, CA bootstrapped HPR into existence on the airframe side, making the larger motor combinations possible. Once average Joes got into HPR the rockets tended to get both bigger and simpler so LOC became more prevalent. Ron Shultz sold his automatic weapons business and went whole hog into kit manufacturing including several nose cone molds he largely made in his own basement machine shop. Lots of Crafts became LOC which became LOC Precision. When Ron was ready to sell his business he found a really good guy in Barry to take over and he has been cruising ever since. Jerry |
Merry Christmas, Santa.
( if this were the day after New Years Eve, not day after Christmas, then we'd be flying ;) ... oh well, next week . ) Would be interesting to find out where the Ace cone molds are, as any local shop should be able to shoot the mold, hmmmm... I'm more interested in the kits - and who owns the rights to them ? .. you ? Korey ? last I knew Steve Buck was making them, then they faded away again . few rumors along the way , but seems noone has brought em back yet. Should they be considered Public Domain / abandoned designs ? Been a few years since I saw Kline, had not heard he had moved on, wish him the best though, one of the true pioneers, and a good friend that we sadly lost touch with over the years. Keep the info coming, will be gathering info for posterity, ongoing. ~ AL |
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Jerry |
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Jerry |
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Even if we knew where they are I wonder what condition they might be in? After all, it's been a few years. - Rich |
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SSRS Alum, eh ? Got any SSRS info to share ? Spartan fin patterns ? were the Hercules / Unicorn ever produced ? ( I have not been able to verify if they were vaporware or not ) . other historical info . ? ~ AL |
Different SSRS
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Different SSRS. I am referring to South Seattle Rocket Society, a long-defunct NAR section. Lot's of good memories from those days.
I do have one historical SSRS document. It's a "brochure." Probably not what you are looking for. The only kit it mentions is the Lasor. In regards to other historical HPR documents the only things I have are circa 1990 Aerotech brochures and price lists. I also have marketing materials for Estes/NCR. The only other historical thing I have are copies of the NAR magazine (can't remember what it was called back then) dating back to the '70s. - Rich |
Bummer there - lol, was hoping for some good Small SOunding Rocket info :D
Thanks for the scan, I htink I have that sheet, but do not believe it is posted online anyplace. good thrust curves and motor info. thanks. ~ AL |
Hi All, I'll take you some good pics, I putting a Starfire Galaxy series by COPOSITE DYNAMICS up on the bay. Be sure to look, I think it's the only one out there. Stait Up!
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Fin Patterns and kit Instructions
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Hi AL, Did you ever get any of the above fin patterns, parts list, kit instructions you were looking for? I've been meaning to post all of the Composite Dynamics fin patterns here on YORF. I have all of them and I still have a lot of the original Composite Dynamics fins that were cut by Composite Dynamics. - I have an original Astro Dynamics fold out brochure of kits. and I have the fin pattern(s) for one of their 2.04" OD kits. I was once a dealer for Astro Dynamics in the early 80's. - I still have a few of the original early ACE Rockets kits: Allegro 2420, Minute, Fugue 18, Fugue 23, Vivance, Cantata, Squid - I did a lot of snail mail correspondence with my good friend Jerry Irvine in the early and mid 80's. And I made fin pattern templates of several U.S. Rocket kits from that era. Stargate: Yes I have the Aero RAM fin patterns. I hope to eventually post all the Stargate fin patterns here on YORF as well. SSRS / CROWN: I have fin patterns and parts lists for several of the SSRS / CROWN kits: Lasor 95, Lasor 134, Lasor 164 Regards, Larry Broadbent |
I have been leaning in to reviving the Ace kits some day. Not yet. I believe the Ace NC mold ended up at Aerotech, but they since did their own mold for 4" so one wonders if the mold was somehow abandoned or lost.
http://v-serv.com/usr/aceseries.htm As soon as I get some major capitalization for the Ace line the first order of business is mass-produced wood nose cones. Jerry |
Jerry,
Glad to see you will be bringing the ACE Rockets kits into the 2014 Rocketry era. Many other companies copied or used portions of these original ACE designs over the years. Keep up the good work at U.S. Rockets. Larry B |
If I needed to replace an Ace PNC-39, I would use the lightweight 4" cone (white) from Aerotech. I got one by mistake last year. It is a very close match in both weight and profile to the original Ace PNC-39. I have the Ace cone on both a NCR Phantom 4000 and a THOY Falcon.
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