First Issue Cherokee-D Kit Scans
 

Here are the scans for a first issue Cherokee-D kit I picked up very luckily a little over a week ago in an eBay deal. For less than $12 per kit, I got the opened Cherokee-D; a pre-Damon (68-69) ARCAS sealed and mint; a pre-Damon Orbital Transport just about mint; a countdown tag Falcon boost glider mint; a 'Free Kit' Stinger mint; and a pre-Damon partially built Avenger. Photo of the batch is below.

But most importantly for here are the scans for the Cherokee-D kit, which is a first issue kit. It did not have the hang tag on the kit, so I do not know if it had a yellow pre-Damon hang tag or other. But, the face card and instructions do sport the pre-Damon logo.

Body tube length came out to right at 1/32th less than 14 3/8th inches, which is 14.344 long.

If someone has a drop box, I can drop them the full rez 300 dpi TIFF scans, which is how I normally scan these items.

I'll add the instruction scans in the next post.

Earl

...and the instruction scans.

Earl

Earl,

What a great find!

Looking at the Cherokee face card, I noticed launch lug stand-offs. Had no idea...

2-piece fins...

Many thanks to all for digging up the info.

Bob

Yes, the two piece fins were news to me until this thread and the fact that I was able to snag these kits was just happenstance. The standoff is, I suppose, to support their kit instruction recommendations to use a 'rail' for launching on D motors (see bottom right of page 1 of the instruction set). The 'standoff' material is 1/16" dowel an inch long.

I did not want to 'turn the knife' too hard about the price paid for this batch of kits, but the $70 was the 'delivered' price (with shipping); the actual purchase price for the batch was just $60. Sometimes you just get plain lucky....

Earl

Were those kits listed under some improper category or branding on ebay ?
That's a steal.

Wow, that's a great deal indeed

I don’t think these were listed incorrectly on eBay or anything like that, as they popped up during one of my standard rocketry item searches. I think it was one of those cases where I saw them *right* after they were first listed and I don’t think anyone else (or very, very few) saw it before I was able to hit the ‘buy’ button.

The lister did state he was the original owner and had purchased them in the late 60s as a kid and had just never gotten around to building them (though I had the impression he had built prior kits); these just were never completed (the Avenger had been started) or opened.

Again, I just plain got lucky.

Earl

Knife turned :)

Earl... WOW!!! What a find!!! Wanna sell it? I'd be more than happy to make it worth your while (even open bag).

I really appreciate you sharing that with us. I'm curious if there's a typo... You said that the body tube is 14.344" long? That's about 2" shorter than the guide says the BT-55V is (16.35").

Do you have any way of taking a photo of the nosecone with a ruler? Perhaps with it inside a body tube, and without the body tube? (I'd like to check the outline of it).

If you could email the higher res images to me, I'll add them to the archive w/proper credit (and of course there's JimZ's site).

Again... THANKS for sharing! Updates are in the works.

I'd also like to say thanks to everyone who has provided additional information on this kit. I'm doing what I can to preserve the history of the hobby, and I can only do that with your help.

Thanks!

Oh, yep, that is a typo. Should be the full 12” of my ruler PLUS the 4.344” of the second measure beyond the 12” length of the ruler for a full length of 16.344”. Sorry about that.

As for selling, well you can probably guess the answer would be no but I appreciate the offer.

I normally do full kit content photos of all kits (well the ones that are open of course) before building them, not that I intend to build this one. But I will add to that photo list the particular ones you requested above.

The file sizes, in some cases, for emailing are pretty large. I’ll have to check a bit later (I’m on an iPad right now away from my main computer), but some may exceed 20mb, which I think is my email provider limit. Do you have a drop box somewhere, or maybe I can resampe the largest ones so they can be emailed.

Earl

Thanks for the quick clarification on that BT length.

About the offer... I had to try. You can bet I'll be cloning it (stock). Ok... A few pointers. Look carefully at the face card and the instructions... They seem to not be the same rocket. The engine hook placement is to put it lightly... Weird. I point it out in the event you're going for the match the original look.

You've got my email address right? I have a onedrive folder if needed.

I literally was taking a break from working on my sim of Toby Vanderbeek's Cherokee-H kit, when I was on the phone with a friend, and saw the email notification of this thread getting action. My friend had to deal with me geeking out on the new scans.

Thanks!

It would appear in this first version of the Cherokee-D face card art that they were using a preproduction model of the rocket. The face card model seems to show either a motor or motor tube projecting from the base of the rocket (and I don’t even see a motor hook at all on the model). But, it is the same face card as shown on Jerry Fortin’s site for this first version of the kit. See this link: http://www.seateddimevarieties.com/...torials/k47.htm

Is onedrive a drop folder/box of some type? If so, I’d rather use that than email, all things equal. If that is what it is, PM with the pathway and I’ll try that.

Earl

Thank you, Earl, for sending us these plans!

Isn't the Cherokee-D nose the same as the Arcas? a secant ogive

The Cherokee-D and Arcas used the BNC-55AC then later used the PNC-55AC.
FAR more were produced with the plastic cone.

Hi Earl,

Thanks for the files... They're posted up on flickr now .

I've measured and cleaned up the decals some.



They're at 400 DPI, and you can download the original .png file from flickr. Unfortunately flickr's images for sharing (such as here) are converted to .jpg images. The original .png file doesn't have the blotchy appearance of a .jpg file.

Quick question... Can you take some measurements on the width of the engine hook and the fins. I have my ideas, but I want to confirm them.

Thanks!

Fin stock thickness is the standard 3/32” stuff.

And the engine hook is the standard ‘original’ kind of hook at .0955” wide by 2.85” long. I say ‘standard’ engine hook, as later on Estes started using some engine hooks (maybe like late 70s or very early 80s) that were standard length, but the material was wider and maybe just a tad bit thicker (stiffer). Centuri used them too in some kits at about the same time, but by then those kits were probably being packaged in Penrose anyway. But the one included in this kit was like the good ol’ standard run of the mill engine hook. Still nice and shiny though.

Earl

Ok, just did a quick measurement of one of the ‘wider’ engine hooks, as mentioned above. This particular hook was from a Centuri Magnum Jayhawk, which was introduced in 1980 and ran until ‘83.

Whereas a standard engine hook material is .0955” wide, these later engine hooks that Estes and Centuri started using in some kits (and maybe it was just in the D powered kits) are .1260” wide. However, material thickness seems to be just about the same. I was thinking that the material in the vigger hooks might be a bit thicker, but no; the additional stiffness with the bigger hook is apparently completely because of its wider material, not thicker material.

But looking at the two hooks side by side, it is very obvious one is wider than the other. This comparison really has nothing to do with the Cherokee-D kit being discussed here; however, since I mentioned the wider engine hook above, I just got curious and wanted to see just how much wider those hooks were.

Earl

Edit -- Photo added to show comparison of different widths of engine hooks over the years. By the way, the one on the left is the one from this Cherokee-D kit. It's 'normal' size. The one of the right is one of the 'wider' engine hooks.

Ok, here are photos of the nose cone.

Nose cone exposed length is 5.37". The shoulder is .558". The photos have the ruler, but it is very hard to tell the precise dimensions directly from the photos (and in the photo socketted to the body tube, it appears as though the end of the ruler is not even with the exposed base of the cone, but it is).

And for what it is worth, the tip of the nose cone looks pretty intact; in other words, it does not appear to have sustained any 'blunting' injuries that might compress that very tapered tip.


Earl

Wow, that looks almost conical. I would love to see that size by side with a pnc-55ac

Awesome!! Thanks Earl!

Confession time... I messed up on the decal recreation. I forgot that there are two large CG/CP markings on the sheet. Most people only use one of each, so it likely won't be an issue. However, I've edited them back in and replaced the image.

From the catalog image, I expected it to be a lot blunter on the tip... I've got a lot of updating to do on the balsa noseconed versions of the Cherokee-D to do (updated decals, corrected fins, nosecone, and double check the engine hook).

Earl,

Thanks for the image with the nosecone in the body tube. For those who don't know, it holds it straight, giving a better profile for photographic analysis.

I don't know if it's mentioned in the thread, but it has been discussed that the early BNC-55AC was not shaped the same as later ones, or the current PNC version. IIRC, the reason was that the tooling wore over time and wasn't replaced so the cones gradually morphed.

Hi Earl,

Working on the sim at this time...



I'm now quite sure that Estes did something really weird with the launch lugs and the standoffs on this kit... Taking your measurements of 1/16" x 1" long, there's no way that both LL Standoffs could be 5/8" long. If the rear is 5/8" long, that leaves only 3/8" for the front. I opted to go with that number as I can't see a way around it. The photo of the parts in the instructions also gives credence to the part you have being genuine. I also moved the forward LL back from the leading edge of the body tube based on the dotted lines seen in the instructions, as no specific location was given.

Could you check these numbers for me?

Instructions give the shock cord as "1/4" Shock Cord #SC-2" (which the 1974 Custom Parts Catalog gives as 1/4" x 18")

And the screw eye as "Screw Eye #SE-1"(which the Custom Parts Catalog doesn't list). I'm presuming it's 3/8" ID x 1" long.

Also, the parachute... Is it the yellow and red "Checkerboard" pattern with the old Estes Logo?

Unfortunately, the screw eye is missing from the kit. It and the launch lug. But, page one of the instruction set does call out the SE-1, which the 1970 Estes catalog says is one inch long weighing .04 oz.

Let me see if I can grab the kit real quick and get the info on the shock cord (it is quarter inch wide, I just don’t know how long) and the parachute...pretty sure it is the yellow and red, probably 18” and I’m pretty positive it has the pre-Damon logo.

I’ll edit this same post once I verify.

Earl

Edit: Ok, chute is 18”, yellow and red, pre-Damon logo. Shock cord is nominal 1/4 material 18.25” long. Will do the scans you mentioned via emai probably tomorrow sometime. Oh, and I reverified wooden dowel length: definitely 1” long. It does appear that Estes goofed on that material since that is not enough to put a full length of dowel under each length of launch lug fore and aft. If I were building this back in the day and were confronted with this, I would probably have cut the dowel exactly in half and centered that under each 5/8” length of launch lug...OR...I might have simply cut each launch lug piece to .5” to match the amount of dowel I had to put under it.

ELC

Thanks for the info!

I whipped up a couple of other versions for the LL for you to look at. Regrettably, I can't simulate the angle the instructions call for.


IMHO the 5/8" LL with centered 1/2" standoff is UGLY as sin (upper image)... The 1/2" LL on 1/2" standoff isn't bad at all (middle), and the 3/8" forward 5/8" rear version (lower) is what I had gone with, but I could be talked into the 1/2" version.

This looks close to the ARCAS scale drawing from Model Rocketry mag April 69...

I believe that the "AC" part of the BNC-55AC is a reference to the ARCAS rocket that inspired the part. Much like most of the two-lettered nosecones seem to match up with the kits that inspired the use of them them (ex. PNC-55EX (Exocet), PNC-55HJ (Honest John), etc.).

I suspect that the single lettered nosecones (PNC-50Y, PNC-55D) may just refer to a series of different shapes that were drawn and lettered, where the designers then chose the ones they liked.

Perhaps if a basic shape was liked, the person who drew it may have been asked to play with that shape and the new derived shapes kept the original letter and got a second letter. From there the best of those were picked (ex. PNC-55AO, PNC-60AH (though the AO, and AH are, I've been told, the same shape, just at different scales).

I guess someone could ask Vern, or any of the other surviving designers.

I'm thinking two 1" lugs on two 1/2" standoffs would look BEST.
PLENTY of "rail guidance" too.

If that's what floats your boat... but God it's UGLY to me...

It was a joke off your upper version, but I meant 1" long lugs on 1/2" long standoffs, not 1/2" HIGH.
Those things ARE hideous. :D

You have to be careful what you ask for... You never, know, you might get it...

1" long LLs on 1/2" long standoffs... Not 1/2" HIGH. Those ARE hideous ;)

Hi Earl,

I'm having some problems with the sim of the Cherokee-D, and perhaps you can help. The sim is saying that the one piece finned version has only .56 calibers of stability. I'm sure that Estes would have never released a kit with that low amount of stability. It has been suggested that the weight of the default balsa nosecone is too little. Can you weigh your NC for me?

Thanks

My digital scale is showing .48 ounces.

Earl

That does the trick... W/o the air fins, it's now at 1.07 Calibers.

Thanks!

do the original decals have white areas?

No, the original decals have no actual white. There are 'clear' areas on the decals (you can see them in post #1, if you have not already), like the 'stars' you see there, but the base white paint on the model would show through those areas and would appear as white after applied.

Earl

Like Earl's kit, my later Cherokee-D kit's decals do not have any white printed on them. Mine came on a blue backing paper, and you can see the blue in the stars, CP markings and the logo.

Ok... I finally managed to finish all three of the early versions of the Estes Astron Cherokee-D (K-47). The original two-piece fin version, the slightly later one-piece version (both from 1970), and the later 1971-? long version. The long version is based on the catalog photo, but I'm pretty sure that it's accurate. There are a couple of minor variants that could also be floating around out there that would have been made in the 1970s.

Estes Astron Cherokee-D (K-47)(Two-Piece Fin Variant)


Notes:
Decals: white backing paper, pre-Damon era logo on the wrap.
Nosecone: BNC-55AC.
Body Tube: BT-55V (~16.35" long).
Screw Eye: SE-1.
Shock Cord: SC-2 ( .25" x ~18").
Parachute: PK-18 (yellow and red checkerboard with pre-Damon era logo).
Fins: made from two pieces of 3/32" thick balsa (small hump on rear fin tip).
Engine Hook: Thin .096" wide (gap cut in aft CR 1/8")
Standoff: a 1" long piece of 1/16" dowel was included for a standoff to be used in conjuction with the "C" Rail.


Estes Astron Cherokee-D (K-47)(Short, One-Piece Fin Variant)


Notes:
Decals: white backing paper, pre-Damon era logo on the wrap.
Nosecone: BNC-55AC.
Body Tube: BT-55V (~16.35" long).
Screw Eye: SE-2.
Shock Cord: SC-2 ( .25" x ~18").
Parachute: PK-18 (orange and white "Sunburst" pattern, Damon era logo, printed on clear plastic).
Fins: made from one piece of 3/32" thick balsa (small hump on forward fin tip).
Engine Hook: Thin .096" wide (gap cut in aft CR 1/8")
Standoff: Standoff and "C" Rail not mentioned or included in this or later versions.

Estes Astron Cherokee-D (K-47)(Early Production Long Variant)


Notes:
Decals: white backing paper, pre-Damon era logo on the wrap.
Nosecone: BNC-55AC
Body Tube: BT-55 (18" long)
Screw Eye: SE-2
Shock Cord: SC-2 ( .25" x ~18")
Parachute: PK-18 (orange and white "Sunburst" pattern, Damon era logo, printed on clear plastic)
Fins: made from one piece of 3/32" thick balsa (small hump on forward fin tip)
Engine Hook: Thin .096" wide (gap cut in aft CR 1/8")

I personally have an original set of later decals with the Damon era logo printed on white backing paper. The catalog photos from 1973 clearly still have the old logo and if you look carefully you can just barely see the old logo on the 1971 catalog photo too.

The BNC-55AC appears in the catalog until 1974, PNC-55AC doesn't appear until 1975 (it is unlikely that they'd have made the plastic nosecone and not included it in the catalog). Photographic analysis of the 1971 catalog shows that the body tube is longer than 16.35". The shock cord and screw eye used are best guesses. In the earlier, one piece finned version, the parachute had the Sunburst pattern shown in the instructions. The parachute included in my later produced Citation Red Max (boxed version)(ca. 1973) has a clear background on its parachute, and the included engine hook was thin, it's uncertain when these parts changed, but it was clearly after the 1971 version of the K-47 kit was produced.

So, here's the questions that I've yet to find the answers to...
Is my Early Production Variant accurate? If not, what needs to be changed?
When did Estes switch the decals to have the Damon Era logo? And when did they change the color of the backing paper?
When did the engine hook change width?
When did the shock cord change from the 1/4" wide SC-2 to the 1/8" wide SC-1?
When did the parachute change to one printed on the white plastic?
Were these incremental changes? or did they happen all at once? (My guess is incremental changes).

And the BIG Quesions...
When did the nosecone change to the PNC-55AC?
Where are the instructions that show the intermediate steps? The instructions I've seen so far are the two versions of the 1970 kit, and the late production version (ca. 1983). You can see that recommended motors did change over time in the catalogs. Surely the instructions were updated to reflect these changes (and no I didn't call you Shirley).
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