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-   -   Engine Survey (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=8408)

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 01:39 PM

Engine Survey
 
I have added an online engine survey to get you input. This is in a constant state of change. As more engines are better characterized, the data will be updated. I will be adding some links to .eng files for Rocksim as I get them completed.

The engines longer than 3.25" are in the future, since they will require a new machine, but we do want to get an idea of interest in current sizes, as well as future sizes.

This survey is only for SAM's until we are ready for a larger public exposure. Please send your comments, errors, omissions, ideas, etc. in this thread. We want all SAM's to have as much input in this process as possible.

The link is Engine Survey. You have to login to see it. There is a current limit of 100 packs per engine so the results do not get badly skewed. (GH... don't break the B14 buttons! :chuckle: )

Ltvscout 01-09-2011 02:48 PM

Whoa! That list is dizzyingly (is that a word?) long!

I'll just answer, yes. :D

CPMcGraw 01-09-2011 02:56 PM

Carl,

Are these based on the thrust curves we 'discussed' and even designed a few possible models around over on the SVDT? I'll have to dig out my old engine files...

SEL 01-09-2011 03:01 PM

Ok, I filled out the form, but I didn't see a 'save' button.
Does it automatically save it under my SAM No.?

S.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
I have added an online engine survey to get you input. This is in a constant state of change. As more engines are better characterized, the data will be updated. I will be adding some links to .eng files for Rocksim as I get them completed.

The engines longer than 3.25" are in the future, since they will require a new machine, but we do want to get an idea of interest in current sizes, as well as future sizes.

This survey is only for SAM's until we are ready for a larger public exposure. Please send your comments, errors, omissions, ideas, etc. in this thread. We want all SAM's to have as much input in this process as possible.

The link is Engine Survey. You have to login to see it. There is a current limit of 100 packs per engine so the results do not get badly skewed. (GH... don't break the B14 buttons! :chuckle: )

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 03:11 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPMcGraw
Carl,

Are these based on the thrust curves we 'discussed' and even designed a few possible models around over on the SVDT? I'll have to dig out my old engine files...

They are similar, but I have some that are projections (like we did) and some are actual. Since the ID of the Standard increased to .520", they are slightly higher. The 10mm is characterized, but the 15 and 22 are not.

BEC 01-09-2011 03:12 PM

I agree with Scott....it's hard to wrap one's mind around such a large and varied list.

Some curiosities:

It seems that (for now) all the weights are propellant + 1g regardless of form factor or delay. I expect that's a work-in-progress kind of thing.

Also, in the "retro" section there are "R" and "RS" entries. The "RS" types are really shorties, right?

Finally, the motor designations that are in small type and parentheses are the Estes designations for the same motors, right? In the case of the "retros" they're the pre-metric designations.

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 03:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEL
Ok, I filled out the form, but I didn't see a 'save' button.
Does it automatically save it under my SAM No.?

S.

After entering a quantity, either hit enter or the update button beside the number. It is going to a database, so the information is stored immediately. The last column combines your count with all the others entered, realtime. If you change an amount, it does not add or subtract, but replaces the previous quantity for that engine.

I put this online before all the wrinkles are out, so please be patient with me! :o

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 03:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
I agree with Scott....it's hard to wrap one's mind around such a large and varied list.

Some curiosities:

It seems that (for now) all the weights are propellant + 1g regardless of form factor or delay. I expect that's a work-in-progress kind of thing.

Also, in the "retro" section there are "R" and "RS" entries. The "RS" types are really shorties, right?

Finally, the motor designations that are in small type and parentheses are the Estes designations for the same motors, right? In the case of the "retros" they're the pre-metric designations.

You can understand the magnitude of this. I want two machines to do all 200 or so of the engines with very little changeover between types.

The S and RS are shorties. The R designates the Mabel I (.406") ID with thick walls.

I am working on the Initial weight. For now it does just add 1 g. That will change to reflect the real weight.

Pyro Pro 01-09-2011 03:43 PM

Would it be difficult to have a general "Update All" button that will check all the form selections? It would be a little easier than individually clicking each one, but it isn't a big issue. Such an enticing list...

GeoLaw 01-09-2011 03:48 PM

If one is "logged on" as a SAM through the Semroc website, is there another step in being able to see the engine survey? How does one go about

John

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 03:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro Pro
Would it be difficult to have a general "Update All" button that will check all the form selections? It would be a little easier than individually clicking each one, but it isn't a big issue. Such an enticing list...

I was going to do that, but it is slower and required another ASP page. I have that on my list.

Missed you during the holidays!

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 03:52 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoLaw
If one is "logged on" as a SAM through the Semroc website, is there another step in being able to see the engine survey? How does one go about

John

I am working on that. I think it is a session cookie thing. It works on mine, but not on Sheryl's. :confused:

SEL 01-09-2011 03:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
After entering a quantity, either hit enter or the update button beside the number. It is going to a database, so the information is stored immediately. The last column combines your count with all the others entered, realtime. If you change an amount, it does not add or subtract, but replaces the previous quantity for that engine.

I put this online before all the wrinkles are out, so please be patient with me! :o

Not a problem, I should have paid a little more attention. At any rate, the only real problem is that there are too many on the list that I'd take 10 packs of right off the top if I could afford to. I'm keeping my initial choices to the motors that aren't available anywhere else, and trying to be realistic about the quantities.

S.

kurth 01-09-2011 04:14 PM

I took the survey. All I can say is WOW

It would be fun to be able to try many of those. Good luck on this endeavor.

tbzep 01-09-2011 04:14 PM

I don't know if I can afford what I chose, but I'd sure like to give it a shot. :cool:

DaveR 01-09-2011 04:22 PM

I've completed the survey trying to be realistic as possible but I tend to agree with zep above, don't know if I can afford what I chose....... :o

tbzep 01-09-2011 04:31 PM

Mine looked really good at first, then I realized it is "packs" instead of "motors". 15 packs of any of the special use motors is quite a lot!

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 04:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
Mine looked really good at first, then I realized it is "packs" instead of "motors". 15 packs of any of the special use motors is quite a lot!

You can correct them by changing the quantities.

Doug Sams 01-09-2011 04:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEL
I'm keeping my initial choices to the motors that aren't available anywhere else, and trying to be realistic about the quantities.
Same here. Even then I doubt I could burn all I selected in one year. Which means, I probably couldn't /wouldn't buy that many the next year (despite liking to think otherwise :))

Doug

.

blackshire 01-09-2011 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
The link is Engine Survey. You have to login to see it. There is a current limit of 100 packs per engine so the results do not get badly skewed. (GH... don't break the B14 buttons! :chuckle: )
When I clicked on the link, all I got was a blank white screen with the words "Must be logged on as a SAM!"...which I don't know how to do even though I am one.

BEC 01-09-2011 06:15 PM

When I got that all I had to do was log in into my Semroc account in another tab of my browser (which gave me the "welcome back" message) then click on the survey. Try that....

blackshire 01-09-2011 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
When I got that all I had to do was log in into my Semroc account in another tab of my browser (which gave me the "welcome back" message) then click on the survey. Try that....
Thank you very much--that did the trick!

blackshire 01-09-2011 07:16 PM

Well, I don't know if they "took" or not (I hit "update" after each motor packs quantity entry), but I filled out the motor survey. One suggestion, Carl: If you could post the original 1968 - 1971 Semroc "Recommended Propulsion Modules" lists for the Semroc kits of that era, it would help us select among your unusual motor types ("3/4A," "3/4B," etc.) for use in your "Retro-Repro" Semroc Swift, Aphelion, Lune R-1, Goliath, etc.

Carl@Semroc 01-09-2011 07:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Well, I don't know if they "took" or not (I hit "update" after each motor packs quantity entry), but I filled out the motor survey. One suggestion, Carl: If you could post the original 1968 - 1971 Semroc "Recommended Propulsion Modules" lists for the Semroc kits of that era, it would help us select among your unusual motor types ("3/4A," "3/4B," etc.) for use in your "Retro-Repro" Semroc Swift, Aphelion, Lune R-1, Goliath, etc.

I cannot find that list. As soon as I get the RockSim engine files, I can run a matrix with all our current kits.

blackshire 01-09-2011 07:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
I cannot find that list. As soon as I get the RockSim engine files, I can run a matrix with all our current kits.
Thank you! I see great potential in those "fractional impulse category" motors as being "tailor-to-field" and "tailor-to-model" (especially multi-stage models) motors. In situations where a given field is a bit too small or a model is a bit too light for recovery on the field to be likely with a full "A," "B," or "C" motor, the "3/4" and other fractional motors could fill the gaps without being *too* powerful.

AstronMike 01-09-2011 11:07 PM

The ones I like are the A3-2T along with the mini B3-3 motors. I love the C5-3 but did not 'choose' it just yet, but if that ever came back, I would definitely be getting those.

Also seen what looked like 'your' version 20mm D5 motor and picked that.

Plenty of others there as well, but only a few of them I would really want as a mainstream motor choice.

BEC 01-10-2011 01:30 AM

I'm with Jason and others.... I focused on choices that are not available from E or Q, and tailoring to sites. I didn't know quite what to do with some of the new-to-me sizes including the "Wide" ones that appear to use ST-8 as the motor tube and the 15mm or 10mm choices. It's sort of a chicken/egg thing for me there.

That you're even considering this is quite exciting news for me. Thanks!

blackshire 01-10-2011 05:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
I'm with Jason and others.... I focused on choices that are not available from E or Q, and tailoring to sites. I didn't know quite what to do with some of the new-to-me sizes including the "Wide" ones that appear to use ST-8 as the motor tube and the 15mm or 10mm choices. It's sort of a chicken/egg thing for me there.
I didn't even *touch* the "Wide," 10 mm, and 15 mm motor choices, but *NOT* for lack of interest in them! I was just so overwhelmed (happily so!) with the other, more familiar choices that I concentrated on them.

The 10 mm and 15 mm categories in particular could re-invigorate FAI contest flying (I know British FAI flyers who would love to be able to buy such motors), and these motors would also be useful for urban and small-field sport flying (a "bridge" between the 6 mm MicroMaxx motors and the 13 mm mini motors). The new Q2-type igniters would make even the 10 mm and 15 mm motors easy to prep, with reliable ignition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
That you're even considering this is quite exciting news for me. Thanks!
Maybe if all of us who are club members spread the word about this, we could help create a receptive "market-in-waiting" among model rocket clubs, NAR sections, schools, Scouts, and 4-H Clubs (not by *promising* them new Semroc motors, but by encouraging them to compile "preferred motor lists" and submit them to Semroc to give them ideas of where they could most profitably concentrate their motor development efforts).

tbzep 01-10-2011 08:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Maybe if all of us who are club members spread the word about this,

Nothing posted here is supposed to be mentioned outside the SAM forum! :eek:


.

blackshire 01-10-2011 08:44 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
Nothing posted here is supposed to be mentioned outside the SAM forum! :eek:


.
No harm done, then. I haven't said anything to anyone else and won't.

tbzep 01-10-2011 09:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
No harm done, then. I haven't said anything to anyone else and won't.


If you mentioned it to the club, your words would probably freeze and fall to the ground up there in Alaska/Siberia anyway. :D :chuckle:

Chas Russell 01-10-2011 09:13 AM

No Joy
 
I could not get into the survey even though I had logged in with the SAM site. I think it is this old computer, so I will try later on my wife's computer. It is great to be asked for input.

Carl, what is your thinking about starting with motors that are offered by E and Q to establish your products as opposed to offering motors people really want? I fully realize that motors designed for competition are a very limited market.

Chas

tbzep 01-10-2011 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Russell
I could not get into the survey even though I had logged in with the SAM site. I think it is this old computer, so I will try later on my wife's computer. It is great to be asked for input.

Carl, what is your thinking about starting with motors that are offered by E and Q to establish your products as opposed to offering motors people really want? I fully realize that motors designed for competition are a very limited market.

Chas


I was able to go to it by logging in to the SEMROC website, making sure it showed the "Welcome Back Tim - SAM member # 0069" under the top banner. I kept that tab open and went to the survey site in a second tab. I'm running Firefox on Linux. Most of my security settings are at low to mid level.

Chas Russell 01-10-2011 10:18 AM

Thanks tbzep. I did have my SAM number showing, but after I clicked on the SAM explaination on the right side, then I was able to get in and take the survey.

Chas

Carl@Semroc 01-10-2011 11:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Russell
I could not get into the survey even though I had logged in with the SAM site. I think it is this old computer, so I will try later on my wife's computer. It is great to be asked for input.

Carl, what is your thinking about starting with motors that are offered by E and Q to establish your products as opposed to offering motors people really want? I fully realize that motors designed for competition are a very limited market.

Chas

We will have to. When you have 100 kits that take a particular mix of engines, it would be a shame to not be able to provide engines for your own kits. They will be different becaue the C5 will really be a C5 with a 22 N peak for many kits we cannot do. The B8 will also be in the same 18x70HB family. The B14 and 3/4C19 will really allow 3 stage and heavier 2 stage 18mm models.

The Retro Mabel I family is one that will work with many of the oldest kits, since they are the engines that they were designed around. They do not match up with current NAR/FAI impulse ranges so they will not be useful for contests. I have them in the queue just for fun. They had a softer/longer burn than the later Mabel II types. I personally want to fly a few of them again.

CPMcGraw 01-10-2011 02:38 PM

Carl, do you plan to post a (reasonably-close) RSE file soon for any of these? I'm not as familiar with the performance of the older engines as some of these guys, so I'm working blind trying to interpret how any given engine is going to respond.

blackshire 01-10-2011 03:35 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
We will have to. When you have 100 kits that take a particular mix of engines, it would be a shame to not be able to provide engines for your own kits. They will be different becaue the C5 will really be a C5 with a 22 N peak for many kits we cannot do. The B8 will also be in the same 18x70HB family. The B14 and 3/4C19 will really allow 3 stage and heavier 2 stage 18mm models.

The Retro Mabel I family is one that will work with many of the oldest kits, since they are the engines that they were designed around. They do not match up with current NAR/FAI impulse ranges so they will not be useful for contests. I have them in the queue just for fun. They had a softer/longer burn than the later Mabel II types. I personally want to fly a few of them again.
The pre-metric A3-1 would be good for the AMROCS Hawk and Estes Falcon boost-gliders, and the Estes/Centuri Series III "Shorty" motors would be perfect for the Centuri Lil' Herc and the Estes Sprite.

CPMcGraw 01-10-2011 04:14 PM

1 Attachment(s)
After playing with the RockSim engine editor, and seeing the 'tiny script' under the engine name on the page, I know the B5-4 is going to be at least one engine on my purchase list. This one gives me excellent Dv numbers for the "Night S.H.A.D.O.W." design I'm starting.

PaulK 01-10-2011 10:55 PM

Very cool survey, though a bit overwhelming. While I'd like to use a number of different motors not currently available, there is overlap. I like to fly small multi stagers, and can adapt depending what is available. I like shorties to fly the old designs, but am perfectly ok with mini motors I can friction fit in 18mm casings to create my own shorties. So, while I entered small quantities for a number of such motors, if, for example, the only 1/2A booster is a 13mm, I'd purchase more of these, since I can make shorties. I'd really like some form of 18mm 1/2A6-4 - if it isn't a shorty, I can cut them down. I guess what I'm trying to say is, given fewer choices, the quantities would go up.

Flew a vintage A5-2S in a Sprite clone made from Semroc parts just yesterday!

BEC 01-11-2011 01:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulK
Flew a vintage A5-2S in a Sprite clone made from Semroc parts just yesterday!


I must have missed shorty As altogether. I only remember 1/4 and 1/2As. A5-xS motors were ones I also "voted" for in the survey.


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