Wanted: 18mm Aerotech E reloads
 

I'm interested in acquiring some vintage RMS 18/20 "baby" E loads.
PM me if you have any willing to part with.

Anyone have any ?

I wasn't aware of E reloads for the 18/20. I seem to remember B and C quite awhile back. When I bought my first 18/20 RMS I only saw D13 and D24 available.

The only E reload for the RMS-18/10 was the E27-4T. It had a total impulse of 23 Newton-seconds. Unfortunately, there is not enough room in the case for a longer delay column. The motor worked well on the heavier 1.9" Aerotech kits. Since these reloads have not been manufactured since the early 1990s, you are likely to get a bonus delay if you don't swap the old delay for a new one. I believe these reloads used the same delay as the D24-4, but they were discontinued long before Aerotech released the Hobby Delay Kits (HDKs) for the hobby-line RMS motors.

Aerotech made a
B6-Blue Thunder
C4-White Lightning, grain slotted at a shallow angle to produce a moon burner profile
C6-White Lightning
C12-Blue Thunder
The current D13 and D24
And the mentioned E27

It’s cool AT added the glider motors C3.4, D2.3 for
The case,

Wow, B through E in that one case. Too bad they weren't profitable.

Unfortunately now all we can barely get are 20n-sec D's.
Would really like that "Baby E" option for my Mars Lander.
The B's and C's are pretty much covered by Q-Jets.

I know far more about that whole product line at AeroTech than I care to remember.

...And now, another episode of "Bob's wacky history of model rocketry products".

When the model rocketry line of RMS products was developed at AeroTech in early 1992, the RMS-18 motor casing was just going to have a 'D' performance load for it. This became the D13 load.

(On another tangent, when the RMS-18 load was determined to be a 'D13', Dan Meyer took a picture of the RMS-18 casing and faxed it to then-NAR President Pat Miller with a note that basically said, "Be afraid. Be very afraid.")

So the D13 would be the load for the RMS-18 casing and that was that.

I couldn't leave it alone.

"What's the largest impulse load we can fit in the case," I asked?
Quickly followed up with, "Can we put smaller loads in the case?"

That got some people thinking.

TBC...

Oh....I have a feeling I’m going to enjoy this story.... :)

Me too....

Can you do it as it’s own thread? It belongs in History...

Me too; so please tell us, Initiator. Sadly, I didn't know about reloads and didn't discover this cute little motor case until much later, I'd burn a bunch of C's in one now. I burn a lot of D's in the pair that I have. My Interceptor loves 'em (and D21's too).

...Continued


So, the staff started looking at other motor sizes that could work in the RMS-18 casing.

It was determined that the largest reload that could fit in a RMS-18 casing and still have an useful delay time was an E27 with a -4 second delay. It would be a 'wimpy' E motor, only around 22-23 Newtons total impulse.

A 'C' motor and a 'B' motor looked possible. An 'A' motor would require too small of a nozzle throat for an igniter to fit through.

As more thinking was put into the idea of these smaller reloads an idea suddenly came clear.

We could make B6 and C6 motors and compete with Estes three motor packages.
Suddenly, the idea took off.

Now, the customer would still have to buy the RMS-18 casing for $40 but just the idea of providing these smaller reloads at a comparable price to the same Estes motor was too good an idea to pass up.

Plus, we could give Barry Tunick (Estes GM) another headache. :D

The plan was to use White Lightning (W) propellant but to get the correct performance for the B6 we had to use Blue Thunder (T).

The C6 motors would be White Lightning along with a longer burn C4 motor. Blue Thunder would be used to create a C12 motor.

Originally, only White Lightning was going to be used for all the reload kits regardless of casing size but as we worked more on the different RMS-18 reloads, other propellants became incorporated in the RMS-24 and RMS-29 casings.

Gary and Scott Pearce spent a lot of time testing and refining the reloads for all the casings.
In order to match the Estes SRP price and make enough profit there would be only one motor nozzle in the reload kit. The consumer would use the one nozzle three times.

On top of this we were trying to get ready for the 1992 Los Angeles RCHTA Show which was only a few months away.

Fortunately, everything came together in time for the Show.
I was really pleased to have so many new SKUs (Stock Keeping Units) to offer the hobby distributors.
Hobby distributors didn't have the time to learn all the details of every product line they sold so usually it was, "I will take one case of each item."

That was an awful lot of reloads. :eek: :)

AeroTech was able to make all the reloads on order and ship them out pretty quick.

Now we waited for the reorders.

TBC...

Oh, yeah! :cool:


.

I think most if not all on this forum would approve wholeheartedly of any outside actions to aggravate/antagonize/irritate/agitate/annoy Tunick.
Would still like to get that E27T 18mm load back.

The problem with that case is it is gateway, after I got it and used it a few times, the proportion of 24/40, then 29/40-120 flights skyrocketed compared to a-b-c flights, so all smaller rockets got left behind for a while.

I know you don't go over to that other forum, but you may be interested at what just turned up: https://www.rocketryforum.com/threa...ms-kits.159086/

Why can't I just make a couple thousand 18mm reloads? Can I get a NAR input port?

Defetive product should be returned to the manufacturer for refund of the purchase price.

"Migrate out" :D Fizzicks is phun. Chemistry sucks.

One could make A and B loads with the minimal 18mm nozzle with low Kn propellants. I have those. Not clear why you would want to.

Jerry

Agreed on that. I'm also underwhelmed by the Q-Jet As and Bs. They don't outperform their Estes black powder counterparts and generally cost at least as much. The Q-Jet B4s don't perform nearly as well as the Chinese-made Quest B6s did. They (CN B6s) were noticeably superior to their Estes counterparts....

Fizzicks SUCKS, Chemistry ROCKS !

Would really like that pak of 18mm E27 loads but there is no mention of him selling them.

No, not directly.

But he did sound to me as if he wasn't quite sure what to do with them since he didn't know of they were usable or not. I figured you could "start a conversation" with him as it's called over there and ask if you wanted them as badly as you've suggested here.....

...Continued

As we waited for the response to the 'model rocket' reloadable motors, AeroTech was battling the fallout from the Vulcan/Estes 'exploding reloads' videotape.

That deceitful videotape and it's presentation to the DOT, CPSC and NFPA really put a halt in the entire reloadable product lines.

Yet, AeroTech was still getting orders from the smaller, on-site hobby dealers for these products.

As the status of reloadable hobby rocket motors worked its way through various organizations and regulator bodies, reorders for the reloadable motors started to arrive at AeroTech.

The most popular loads were the G64 and F40 White Lightning loads with the E18 close behind.

Not one reorder for the 18mm loads.
None. Zip.

We talked to several dealers/distributors and were told that the 18mm reloads didn't interest many flyers. One or two in a NAR or TRA group would buy a casing and reload, fly it and say "That was interesting" and move on. We were also getting calls from dealers/hobbyists stating that their reload kit was missing two nozzles. Most folks didn't read the instructions to save and reuse the phenolic nozzles for all three propellant loads. This situation caused many phone calls so we/AeroTech decided to include three nozzles in the B and C motor reload kits. This cut into the profit margin.

One evening in November 1992, Paul Hans and I sat around the dining room table at my apartment.

I pulled out a current order form listing all the model rocket reload kits.
Paul and I went through the list using sales figures I had been tracking.

Then we started to cross off reloads with low/no sales volumes.
Except for the D13 reloads, none of the other 18mm loads had any sales.
Paul and I agreed these motors should be removed from the lineup.

The next day Paul and I spoke with Gary about our findings and the recommendation to cancel those products. Gary agreed and that ended the B, C and E reloads for the RMS-18/20 reload case.
We still had inventory on these reloads and it would take awhile before they were sold but no new production runs would be made.

This was lost in the ongoing battle over getting the reloadable motors approved by various regulatory agencies and organizations. At the time we received little or no comment on the cancelation of these products.

The saga of the 18mm B, C and E reloads didn't even last a year.
Like many commercial products the marketplace determined the success or not of these items.

Wish we could get that E27 back.
It would be great in the Mars Lander and Space Shuttle.

Awesome story. All the B and C kits I got only had the one nozzle. You said AT decided to include the addtional nozzles, but was the line cancelled before any were?

Thanks.

There is a romantic attachment to 13mm and 18mm motors due to the Estes multi-decade commitment and success. I am not convinced any competitive 13mm or 18mm motor will ever appreciably impact the Estes Product dominance, even the Q-jet C and D. There needs to be a longer 18mm Q-jet to make any difference. The standard Estes lengths are 1.75, 2.75, 3.75, 4.5".

I would like to see an 18mm Q-jet 3.75" long and perhaps 4.5" long. That would be a utility product with both differentiation and massive compatibility. So what if it sticks out the back a bit.

Tech Jerry

I still have some of those long 18mm AVI D6.1's.
Have not flown one in probably 25 years.
Those worked well back in the day for light rockets.
Would only be interested in long 18mm SU motors if they serve a unique niche such as a REAL PORT BURNER with some actual KICK. Like a D20 or E25.
As soon as Estes releases the new C5 and B8 motors, I'm buying a boatload of them to stockpile so when they discontinue them again I won't be sorry.
What they really should do is replace the entire B6 series with the B8. The B4 and B8 lines would be plenty if they brought back the B4-6.
Totally replace the C6-3 and C6-0 with the C5-3 and C5-0.

My 18mm reload kits always had three nozzles. ;) :D

The additional nozzles would have been added in the next production run but that never happened.

Thanks!!!

All my D13/D24 18mm reload paks also have 3 nozzles as well and some are 20 years old.

They always did, it was the bs and cs with1. What do the 20 year old D13s look like? Mine are swelling.

I'll have to dig out the old D13s to look.
I have far more D24s as I prefer the big kick of BT propellant in 18, 24, and 29mm flavors.
BT ages well and does not swell.
Wish we could get their Mohave Green propellant in some 18mm and 24mm loads.

I have used BT reloads from 1995 with no issues. I think they will last a long time. For some reason a hobby shop I visited a lot got around 50 packs of F39s around 1995, I think they thought they would be huge sellers. Folks from our club would buy a few packs here and there for the next 20 years. When they closed shop 20 years later they still had 15 packs which I got at a good discount. They burn great, good thing I love that motor.

AT WL uses Mg as the metal which reacts with air and it also migrates through the first couple layers of AP and rubber. It swells. The reason why Erroretch uses Mg is it combusts more fully in small motors. It ages poorly. The alternative technology we use at U.S. Rockets is low micron Al. On the order of 6-8 micron. It ages 40+ years.

Last I checked AT BT uses copper chromite which does not age quite as badly.

Tech Jerry

The fact a product you actually like sits on a shelf for 20 years tells you more about the retail and distribution scheme than the product. No wonder hobby stores are dead.

I had an alternate experience, I just flew 8 BT G-12 endburners, sealed from 1995-96
The propellent was quite hard, no swelling, all ignited normally, one burned normally, 7-8 second burn, one burned in 3 seconds, I have a video, it's like it got kicked in the ass about 6 feet up(Karl at Aerotech thinks the propellend might have pulled away from the casting tube and burned on end and side when I showed to him), the rest burned with much reduced power, in about 12 seconds.

I also flew two F-16 WL's sealed from the same time, both were swelled, even with scraping the surface they chuffed badly and developed very low thrust and burned for 20 seconds, fortunately this was in an RC rocket glider and I could deal with the low thrust and steer it level with no damage. As Jerry said these don't age well.

Frank

Would you like an RCRG motor that burns near 30 seconds?

I don't know, what is the weight before and after burn, is it certified for use at AMA fields which required NAR or Tripoli commercial certified motors.

YORF thread