Logix rocket dimensions?
 

Hello All,

Today I received an order that contained several of the new Estes 6" parachutes, and they got me thinking about the model rocket in the Aeronautical Lab Kit that was made by Logix Enterprises and Science Fair in the 1970s (see: http://www.samstoybox.com/toys/Aeronautic.html ). It used a 10" or 12" parachute for the body and a 6" 'chute for the nose cone.

Does anyone here know how long the rocket's BT-20/30-ish body tube and nose cone were and/or have the rocket's fin pattern or fin dimensions? The Estes PNC-20A or Starlight PNC7D nose cones could be used for clones of this rocket.

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help.

Year later! How about that!! I got one of these that is in the middle of a restore. Do you still need some info on it?

Yes, indeed! Also, please send the data (and instructions scans and/or photos of the Logix rocket) to Scott Hansen (e-mail addresses: scott@rocketshoppe.com and scott@oldrocketplans.com ) at "Ye Olde Rocket Plans" (YORP, see: www.oldrocketplans.com ) so that it can be preserved for all kit cloners. The needed information would be:

[1] Body Diameter (I'm not sure if it's "BT-20-ish" or more like ST-7 tubing);
[2] Overall Length;
[3] Body Tube Length;
[4] Nose Cone Length;
[5] Diameter of Nose Cone Tip (if memory serves, the tip is flat--a small circle);
[6] Fin Root Chord;
[7] Fin Sweep Angle (because the extreme forward corner of the fin on the body is cut off);
[8] Fin Tip Chord;
[9] Height of cut-off extreme forward corner of fin (where it's cut off);
[10] Fin "Half-Span" (from root to tip);
[11] Fin thickness;
[12] Main Body Parachute Diameter (plus shroud line length if available);
[13] Nose Cone Parachute Diameter (plus shroud line length if available);
[14] Shock Cord Length (if the original);
[15] Depth of Motor Thrust Ring [or Length of Exposed Portion of Motor] (from instructions);
[16] Decal Documentation (number and size[s] of "check[s]" in the black-and-white checkerboard roll patterns, the lengths of the roll patterns, their placement locations as measured from one or both ends of the body tube, the widths of the white and black bands, and the widths of the fin guide "missing strips" in the rear roll pattern decal). Also:

Sketches of the decals, with the measurements of their features ("checks," bands, etc.) included on the sketches, would enable anyone to easily reproduce the decals. Since the original decals were printed on self-adhesive glossy paper, they could be reproduced by printing them on Avery self-adhesive label paper (maybe Sandman would whip up a set of these?). Thank you very much for making scale data on this rare Canadian model rocket available!

I still have the book that came with the set. :cool:

I had one of those Aeronautical Lab Kits in the 1970s (the Logix-brand one), but it is long gone, so I bought a manual from one on eBay a couple of years ago. I loved the kit's square-base launch pad and "safety key-less" launch controller, which both used styrene foam pieces for their main structural components! :-)

Sorry to get your hopes up my friend but all I have is the rocket itself. No decals or parachute(s) either. I can give you the BT and NC length, and the fin dimensions but that's about it.

That's fine--those measurements will be sufficient to replicate the rocket. The Aeronautical Lab Kit manual has quite good renderings of the decals, and they were simple in design, so replicating them wouldn't be too difficult. Also:

I'm pretty sure the nose cone parachute was 6" (or maybe 15 cm) wide, and the rocket body parachute was either 10" (25 cm?) or 12" (30 cm?) in diameter. (Since at least the Logix-brand Aeronautical Lab Kit [the one I had] was made in Canada and those were the years of the big push for metric conversion in both Canada and the USA [all measurements given in the manual are metric], the parachutes may have been made in metric sizes.)

Mr. Sam Cancilla, on whose "Sam's Toy Box" web site I found photographs of the Logix (and also Science Fair) Aeronautical Lab Kits (see: http://www.samstoybox.com/toys/Aeronautic.html ), has kindly scanned the decals and printed balsa fin sheets of the "Solid Fuel Model Rockets" (as they are called in the Aeronautical Lab Kit manual) and sent me links to his scans (which are included below). As he told me:

"I was able to scan the decals from one of the two sets--both sets of decals are the same though laid out differently on the two decal sheets. The sheet I scanned is about 9 x 16 inches which is too big for my scanner so I did it with two scans:

http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/logixdecals1.jpg
http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/logixdecals2.jpg
http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/logixinstructions.jpg

"These are both nearly 2MB files. Hopefully these can be printed on letter size paper and pieced together to get the one decal that is split across both sheets. The third image is of the first instruction page for the solid engine rocket showing that you use decals #5 and #6 on the rocket tube. The only other decals used on this rocket are #3-#4 used to attach the parachute shock cords and #8, the CG label." Also, below are his scans of the rockets' printed balsa fin sheets. As Mr. Cancilla described them:

"I hadn't gone to the rocket forum before sending you the links to the decal scans. It appears I might be able to help more:"

http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/logixbalsa1.jpg
http://www.samstoybox.com/toypics/logixbalsa2.jpg

"These are scans of the actual balsa wood strip which includes the fins for the propellant rocket, part PR01 at the top of the first scan. The second scan is the other end of the balsa strip and shows that it is 1/16" thick. Note that these files are huge, about 3MB as I laid graph paper over the items to make it easier to scale things. Cheers,

Sam" In addition:

**MANY THANKS** to Sam Cancilla for enabling us to preserve the plans for this rare Canadian model rocket! These will enable avid rocket kit cloners to reproduce this rocket using current parts and reproduction decals, which could be printed (as the original decals were) on self-adhesive label paper.

Great job on getting those details!! I had seen that site and never had thought of asking for any info!!

You still want a few NC dimensions?

Thank you!Was Sea Biscuit a Thoroughbred? :-) Indeed I do (and not just for me, but for anyone who might wish to clone this rocket). Also, could you measure the outside diameter of the body tube (or the nose cone)? While I think it's about BT-20 size, I seem to recall 18 mm motors fitting inside the tube (which was rather thick-walled, if memory serves) a bit loosely, so the body tube may be BT-30 or ST-7 size, or something close to one of those sizes.

I've got several of these kits if you guys need additional help.

Wow--what an "embarrassment of riches" we have here on this rocket (which is a very *good* thing)! Leo, if you could scan its decal sheet, its printed balsa fins sheet, and the assembly instructions from the Aeronautical Lab Kit's manual as per the "Ye Olde Rocket Plans" file format (see: www.oldrocketplans.com/sendscans.htm ) and e-mail them to Scott Hansen (e-mail addresses: scott@rocketshoppe.com and scott@oldrocketplans.com ), this rocket would make a unique entry in the YORP plans archive. Also:

If you also have the parts for the "Hand-Launched Rocket" in the Aeronautical Lab Kit (it used the same plastic nose cone and a second body tube of the same size as the tube used for the "Solid Fuel Model Rocket"), it too would be well worth documenting in the same way. With its hinged "side parachute hatch" that was cut from the body tube, this rocket could be built either "stock" (for launch via an elastic band) or to incorporate a 13 mm motor mount in its swing-open hatch, for a unique parachute stowage & deployment method. In addition:

The nice thing about both of these rockets is that their self-adhesive decals could be printed out on letter-size (8.5" X 11" or A4 size) sheets of self-adhesive label material such as those made by Avery. Below I've reproduced the rockets' dimensions that could be listed in the "Notes" sections of their plans entries on "Ye Olde Rocket Plans":

[1] Body Diameter (I'm not sure if it's "BT-20-ish" or more like ST-7 tubing);
[2] Overall Length;
[3] Body Tube Length;
[4] Nose Cone Length;
[5] Diameter of Nose Cone Tip (if memory serves, the tip is flat--a small circle);
[6] Fin Root Chord (if scans are made of the rockets' balsa fin sheets, they could replace the fin dimensions listed in [6] through [10]);
[7] Fin Sweep Angle ([for "Solid Fuel Model Rocket"], because the extreme forward corner of the fin on the body is cut off);
[8] Fin Tip Chord;
[9] Height of cut-off extreme forward corner of fin (where it's cut off);
[10] Fin "Half-Span" (from root to tip);
[11] Fin thickness;
[12] Main Body Parachute Diameter (plus shroud line length if available);
[13] Nose Cone Parachute Diameter (plus shroud line length if available);
[14] Shock Cord Length (if the original);
[15] Depth of Motor Thrust Ring [or Length of Exposed Portion of Motor] (from instructions);
[16] Decal documentation (scans of the rockets' decal sheets);
[17] For "Hand-Launched Rocket," the size & shape of the parachute hatch; the size, shape, and location of its hand launch hook; and the length, width, and end locations of the parachute hatch's elastic deployment cord (scans of the relevant instruction pages in the Aeronautical Lab Kit's manual would document these items). Lastly:

Because the self-adhesive decals on both the "Hand-Launched Rocket" and the "Solid Fuel Model Rocket" have open fin alignment slots in their rear roll patterns, clones of these rockets would be useful to schools and youth groups because their fins would be "self-aligning"; the school or group instructors could help make sure that the roll pattern decals were applied correctly to the rockets' body tubes.

Give me a couple of days and I'll put a package together for the engine powered version. Rubber band hand launched version will come later.

Thank you very much, Leo! And absolutely--at *your* convenience.

Here the information I put together to build the Logix solid fuel rocket:

Click here to view...

Please check it out and let me know if something is missing or needs improvement.

After looking at the photo of the fin sheet on Leo's site, I thought everyone might appreciate having a "Krellvenator Pattern" for cutting a set of four fins...

The plans on Leo's site show a "normal looking" fin tip, but the sheet in his photo set clearly shows a tip extension. Since the sheet appears to be inked only, and not die-crunched, one presumes the builder would cut the fin to match that shape. So, I'm leaving that tab in place for nostalgia.

Hope this helps!

ADDENDUM: The files have just been corrected. Spotted an error in the line layouts.

Thank you! Yes, I don't know why the folks at Logix left those "Redstone-esque" fin tips on the printed balsa sheet. I guess that with all of the many other projects in that Aeronautical Lab Kit, it was just an oversight.

This is excellent! I hadn't thought of including a substitute parts (Semroc parts) list. Also:

I am just curious as to whether the body tube is a "hard metric" length (300 mm) or a "soft conversion" from 12" (305 mm). Since the Canadians had just begun their (still uncompleted) conversion to the metric system (in 1971, if memory serves) before the Aeronautical Lab Kit came out in 1973 (all figures given in its manual are metric), I wouldn't be surprised if some of the parts in the kit were made to "soft-converted" inch-based specifications using legacy inch-based tooling.

I'm sure Logix meant the fins to be cut from the balsa sheet in this manner:



The body tube lengths are neither metric nor inches. As with many other items of the lab kit the parts weren't the best of quality. I will measure several of the tubes I have for the very exact size :)
However when cloning the kit I would opt for 12" length.

Yes, that's how I cut out the fins for mine. The body tubes did have rather coarse finishes, with prominent (but not "canyon-like") spirals. Thank you for measuring them! (They might have "loose tolerances," like the body tubes of the MPC Miniroc kits--the body tube of JAL3's Taurus-1 measured 7-39/64" in length instead of an even 8".) Also:

How can we print the decal scans at 100% size (the images are BMP files)? Do they work like PDFs (where they'll print at 100% size if "no scaling" is selected), or do the BMPs require something different to print at 100% size? If we can do that, those black-and-white decals can be printed on self-adhesive label paper, as were the originals.

You're probably right. The plans sure indicated a "normal" tip pattern, but the outline on the balsa suggested otherwise. Makes me wonder how many were actually built with the "square tip" extensions by kids told to "follow the outlines carefully"... :o

I can work up a better set of fins, with the grain running along the leading edge instead of the trailing edge.

Wow this is a coincidence. The other day I was thinking about building some old kits from when I was younger, one being the Centuri Flying Saucer and the other being the 2 rockets in my Logix kit. Also I would build the glider and freeflight model. I took the kit out the other day and will begin building the models as soon as I am done with my Hyperbat.

Here's a corrected fin sheet, following the more traditional "leading edge along the grain" placement. The sheet is 3" x 8" x 1/16". The ZIP file contains the Corel Draw V10 CDR burn pattern.

Thank you very much! While I can't use the ZIP file (my computer is too old), it will be helpful to many others. Also, I noticed that the attached thumbnail image contains the word "Semroc"--have they added the Logix "Solid Fuel Model Rocket" fins to their selection of custom laser-cut fin sets?

You're welcome, Shire!

Actually, I just whipped that up tonight. I have Corel Draw 12, and anytime I make up a sheet pattern, I just go ahead and prepare it for Carl to add at his discretion. It's just a placeholder, as Carl usually would erase those imprints and add his own logo. The fin "catalog number" would also be changed, as mine simply reads "FN-XXXXX-0625". The last four digits is the thickness of the sheet...

I've measured all the tubes I have and they come out at exactly this length:

Leo, thank you for measuring the tubes and posting the photograph! That's approximately 11-15/16", or a bit over 303.2 mm. It looks like a "loose tolerance"-cut 12" body tube (like the MPC Miniroc body tubes) that they considered a "soft-converted" 300 mm body tube. Also:

(I've long been fascinated with metrication, and with how different countries managed their conversions, including "soft-converting" legacy pre-metric parts and tooling where practical. Australia is widely acknowledged as having done the best job among the recently-metricated countries--they used the millimeter as the basic unit of length instead of the centimeter [which enables whole-number measurements with no decimals], and they took the opportunity to re-think common things such as building materials and carpentry nails, which allowed them to eliminate many largely-superfluous intermediate sizes instead of just "soft-converting" all of the old "penny" sizes to metric. Countries such as Canada, which use the centimeter as a sort of de-facto "metric inch," have had more difficulties in converting, particularly in their textile and carpentry industries.)

Anybody ever finish one of these? I put mine on the back burner and just pulled it out again yesterday. It's primed and ready for paint. Would love to see a finished one!

I'd like a bit of help with the decals.

I'm not clear on the red stripe. There are two different stripes with ARCTIC EXPLORER.

Could someone clarify?

Even tho the picture on the box shows them as red, the one I built back in the day only had black stickers if I remember correctly.

BUT having said that, the red looks pretty cool...

Sandman's post (and your reply to it) brings up a consideration I hadn't thought of before: My set's rocket also had all-black & white self-adhesive paper stickers, and it was made by Science Fair Electronics--was yours? The reason why I ask is because the Aeronautical Lab Kit was *also* sold by Logix Enterprises under its own name (you can see both versions here: http://www.samstoybox.com/toys/Aeronautic.html ), and it's possible--although not likely; I'll explain below--that the rocket decal in their set had a red stripe (which I agree would look quite cool!). Also:

I bought a manual from an Aeronautical Lab Kit off eBay last year or the year before (I have it next to me now), and it's from the Science Fair SFX-4000 Aeronautical Lab Kit. Except for the company name on the cover, it looks identical to the Logix Enterprises manual on the above-linked web page (the plastic parts in both sets are molded in blue, while the plastic parts in my set were molded in red). This Science Fair manual was printed in Canada (Copyright 1973) and is copyrighted to Logix Enterprises in Montreal, Quebec. In addition:

I think the artist took some "artistic license" when s/he created the manual cover illustration that shows both the catapult rocket and the solid propellant rocket (the latter with its main body and nose cone parachutes deployed), with the limb of the crescent Moon behind and above them. Both rockets have red bands and stripes as well as black & white checkerboard roll patterns. While it is possible that Logix Enterprises' Aeronautical Lab Kit came with red, white, and black stickers for its rockets (and/or that Science Fair Electronics added red stripes to its rocket decals in later production runs of the set), I think the artist just used all three colors (in addition to the overall white color for both illustrated rockets, which wasn't the case for the actual ones [they had natural kraft body tubes and blue or red plastic nose cones, with no painting suggested]) to make the rocket illustrations more eye-catching and aesthetically pleasing. (They would, however, look very nice if painted and "decaled" as illustrated on the manual's cover!)

My plastic parts are molded in forest green.

Interesting...I wonder if they also did a run of parts molded in yellow, or even black or white? (White would have been bad for the airplanes' propellers, the catapult handle, and for the launch controller panel, as they would have shown stains and dirt more readily.) Maybe other folks on here have or had sets with the plastic parts molded in other colors.

Don't quote me but I believe the kit I had was the Logix one. I recognize the kid on the top of the box. I also got this kit as a xmas gift and am pretty sure it came out of the JcPenny catalog as that is the store that had an "outlet" in my home town. I remember going thru those huge winter/xmas catalogs every year looking at all the cool toys.

I can also positively say that my nosecone was black plastic. I say this because I was doing some sanding on it recently and got enough of the old paint off to see it.

Here is a link to one on ePay that has baby blue plastic parts.

http://tinyurl.com/nx9ffv7

My original one back in 1977 came in a box identical to the one I got via Ebay recently. The parts on my original one were red.

Thank you for this information. That sounds familiar...my parents bought mine (also in 1977, if memory serves) out of the Sears & Roebuck Christmas catalog.That color doesn't surprise me, as it is also used for rubber-powered model airplanes' plastic wheels (and sometimes their propellers as well), although red seems to be the most common plastic prop color, and yellow (and "silver plastic") ones are occasionally seen.Now *that* box lid looks familiar, even though I never had one; I think I saw one of those in our local Radio Shack in Miami back in the 1970s. I'd love to see someone (maybe Estes, as they also offer a limited selection of model airplanes and gliders) offer a similar Aeronautical Lab Kit, as I found mine very fun and I learned a lot from it. Also, the manual makes a great reference and project guide (which schools, Scouts, 4-H Clubs, and other youth groups could use) even by itself.

Although it's an admittedly very small statistical sample to draw conclusions from, red and blue appear to be the most common colors of the Aeronautical Lab Kits' plastic parts. If there are enamel (or maybe acrylic) paints that match the plastic colors well, white Estes Viking and Wizard BT-20 plastic nose cones could be painted those colors for clones of the Aeronautical Lab Kit rockets. (Even lacquer spray paint could be used if it matched the desired color; the first coat could be very light and be allowed to dry completely before more coats were sprayed on.)

I just got my internet back and already you have me confused! :confused:

Welcome back! I lost power for ~12 hours last Wednesday during a windy, wet-snow winter storm in our area (I was lucky--some residents were power-less for the rest of the week!). Regarding your confusion, such can be a consequence of the arcana of research... Here's the nutshell version:

The Logix solid propellant rocket decal set (based on what those who had--and have--the Aeronautical Lab Kit have seen) has no red stripes, but is all black-and-white. The red stripes and bands shown in the color illustrations of the rocket on the box and manual cover seem to have been added as "artistic license" (but they *would* look fab!). Perhaps a decal set for this rocket (and maybe for its "companion" catapult rocket, too) could have duplicates of the actual black-and-white decals as well as the "in the mind's eye of the artist" black, white, *and* red decals? For complete fidelity to the original decals (which were self-adhesive, glossy paper stickers), the duplicate decals could also be printed on such material (such as self-adhesive glossy paper label sheets).

On the subject of the Science Fair/Logix Aeronautical Lab Kit, a teacher I am helping could use a copy of the cardstock parts sheet(s) that came in the set (I've explained about this here: http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showt...0814#post170814 ). Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help!