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-   -   Mark II how important are you?? (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=2903)

Tedster 03-04-2008 10:44 PM

Mark II how important are you??
 
Done maybe already, just point me in the right direction. Why is the MARK II "historically significant"? What are the details of the bottom of the nose cone, parachute, and the engine mount? What about the model Bill has of his Dad's??? Is that particular model "historically significant"?

A Fish Named Wallyum 03-04-2008 11:12 PM

Could the Mark II have been the first Estes rocket to break apart upon ejection instead of using tumble recovery? I know it's one of the few kits to use the BT-30.

Rocket Doctor 03-05-2008 04:58 AM

Semroc sells a clone of the Mark II
Here is a list of the Estes first 10 kits
K-1 Scout
K-2 Mark
K-2A Mark II
K-3 Space Plane
K-4 Streak
K-5 Apogee 3
K-6 rAnger
K-7 Phantom Original BT-20 no fins
K-7B Phantom BT-50 with fins
K-8 Sky Hook
K-9 Sapceman
K-10 Cobra

From what I understand, the Mark was part of Model Missiles and G Harry Stine. If this is not correct, please correct me.

Tedster 03-05-2008 07:22 AM

We are talking Orville's roc-a-chute Mark II with the crayon sharpener nose cone, right?

Bluegrass Rocket 03-05-2008 10:09 AM

Orville's Mark II Rock-A-Chute
 
1 Attachment(s)
From my point of view, Orville's Mark II was the first practical model rocket. The first rocket he made, Mark I, looked like fireworks of the time. So, I'm guessing, he wanted to get away from that look and made the Mark II. That would make the Mark II the first model rocket that looked like what we think of as a model rocket. That is, in my opinion, what makes it historically important.

On the Ye Olde Rocket Plans site,

http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/publications.htm

there are 2 good copies of articles about the Rock-A-Chute rockets. One is about 9 down "09/58 Rock-A-Chute Aerobee-Hi Review"

http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/pubs/...8/9_58AmMod.pdf

the other is farther down after the Estes stuff, "10/57 Rock-A-Chute Article"

http://plans.rocketshoppe.com/pubs/..._57Mech_Ill.pdf

These show some photos. Also see the article in Sport Rocketry in the July/Aug 2007 issue. It's about a build of the Mark II using an original Leeds Sweete plastic crayon sharpener. Some of the information that the modeler used in the Sport Rocketry article came from Bill Stine at Quest. I am hoping that this information will be a part of the "The Model Rocket Museum" mentioned in this forum and on the Quest website.

This is also one of my interests right now, as I too have an original crayon sharpener to use as a nose cone. A buddy of mine re-created the Rock-A-Chute logo for me to make a decal for the rocket. I'll post it here for all. I will be posting that build, along with an 3X upscale build of the Mark II, hopefully in a few weeks.

Somewhere on this forum, I read that someone had talked to G. Harry Stine and said he had bought a Rock-A-Chute Mark II as a kit sometime in the late 50's I'm guessing. So, this would mean that Orville kitted the Mark II and maybe sold some locally from where he lived. That would make the Mark II the first rocket kit ever sold. I love this history stuff.

Ltvscout 03-05-2008 12:01 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass Rocket
A buddy of mine re-created the Rock-A-Chute logo for me to make a decal for the rocket. I'll post it here for all.

Thanks, Rick. Mind if I put this up on YORP as well?

shockwaveriderz 03-05-2008 12:30 PM

rick:

check out the 5/1970 issue of Model Rocketry magazine over on Ninfingers, "The First Model Rockets" by G. Harry Stine.

You really ought to consider alowing somebody to make a mold clone of that Leeds Sweete plastic crayon nose cone so that we could all make real reproductions of the Mark 2.

hth
terry dean
nar 16158

A Fish Named Wallyum 03-05-2008 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedster
We are talking Orville's roc-a-chute Mark II with the crayon sharpener nose cone, right?


Nah. We've got Estes on the brain and forgot about that one. :o At least I did.
In that case, it's pretty obvious. It can attain altitude and sharpen the pencil that you use to fill in your log. If they could have found a way to put a Ginsu knife blade in there, we'd REALLY have been talking historic. :rolleyes:

Bluegrass Rocket 03-05-2008 10:09 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Please feel free to post and use the logo.

I would not be opposed to someone casting the crayon sharpener nose cone. I have not yet tried my hand at learning to cast things. If you know the right person for the job, let me know and we will see if we can figure it out.

I also forgot to mention earlier that there is a great article about Orville Carlisle in the premier issue of Launch Magazine.

Here's a few photos of the sharpeners.

Royatl 03-05-2008 11:39 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltvscout
Thanks, Rick. Mind if I put this up on YORP as well?


Ya know, this is off topic and all, but I had to interject here...

Everytime I see your avatar, instead of the top of Patrick's head, I see a NAR logo.

Weird, huh?

Tedster 03-06-2008 03:40 AM

I can make a mold.

Ltvscout 03-06-2008 07:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass Rocket
Please feel free to post and use the logo.

Thanks, Rick!

Ltvscout 03-06-2008 07:28 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
Ya know, this is off topic and all, but I had to interject here...

Everytime I see your avatar, instead of the top of Patrick's head, I see a NAR logo.

Weird, huh?

Uhh, I don't know if you're pulling my leg or if I need to look for some issue. :o

shockwaveriderz 03-06-2008 11:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass Rocket
Please feel free to post and use the logo.

I would not be opposed to someone casting the crayon sharpener nose cone. I have not yet tried my hand at learning to cast things. If you know the right person for the job, let me know and we will see if we can figure it out.

I also forgot to mention earlier that there is a great article about Orville Carlisle in the premier issue of Launch Magazine.

Here's a few photos of the sharpeners.


rick thanks for that great offer!. and the great pics! How the heck did you come across not only 1 of those,, but two and in different colors?

Let me ask around on the mold making.

Tedster is actually Ted Mahler. Hi Ted! Welcome. Great Carlisle Mark 2 article! Would you be intersted in doing a short run of resin cast nose cones?




terry dean
nar 16158

Royatl 03-06-2008 01:42 PM

And now...

the patent:

http://tinyurl.com/36aux6

shockwaveriderz 03-06-2008 02:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
And now...

the patent:

http://tinyurl.com/36aux6



I think i've seen everything now.......


terry dean
nar 16158

ghrocketman 03-06-2008 02:34 PM

Bill's comment about the "Ginsu" blade is hilarious.
I think a "Ronco" item should be attached as well.
How about a Dan Ackroyd special "Bass-O-Matic" ?

Bluegrass Rocket 03-06-2008 07:15 PM

3 Attachment(s)
I also have a crayon sharpener in the original package. This pertains to Ted Mahler's excellent article. The sharpener Ted got had "Rocket Crayon Sharpener" printed on it as well as saying "Patented". The one I have says "Pat. Pending" which I believe to be a earlier one. This leads me to believe that the Leeds Sweete company found out what Orville was doing with their sharpener and started printing "Rocket" on it.

Ted, if you read this, I was trying to get the info that you received from Quest but, Matt no longer works there and since they moved Nettie said she wasn't sure when they might be able to help. Nettie asked me if I had contacted you. So, any chance I could get some of the info that you received?

Tedster 03-06-2008 09:20 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
rick thanks for that great offer!. and the great pics! How the heck did you come across not only 1 of those,, but two and in different colors?

Let me ask around on the mold making.

Tedster is actually Ted Mahler. Hi Ted! Welcome. Great Carlisle Mark 2 article! Would you be intersted in doing a short run of resin cast nose cones?




terry dean
nar 16158


Let me try on my own leeds sweety to make a mold. Then I'll be glad to share!

Ted

falingtrea 03-07-2008 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass Rocket
I also have a crayon sharpener in the original package.


I bet you wish you could have payed 10 cents for it. ;) :)

shockwaveriderz 03-07-2008 03:20 PM

Some historical notes on the Mark 2.

Carlisle had another version of the Mark 2 called the Mark2.5.
G. Harry Stine in April 1959 published pland for his "Lil Mark" which was a kitbash of the MMi Aerobee-Hi kit and an Adams plastic Honest John nose cone. It had the Mark 2 like fins template. This Lil Mark went on to become the Astron Mark Estes kit K-2.

I can't find any evidence that Orv Carlisle actually ever sold any Mark 2's as kits other than he send 3 pre-build RTF Mark 2's and 3 "kits" to G. Harry Stine. Once the Carlisle-Stine letters are published, we may know of other Mark 2 "kits" that he either gave or sold to G. Harry Stine.


hth

terry dean
nar 16158

Tedster 03-08-2008 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluegrass Rocket
I also have a crayon sharpener in the original package. This pertains to Ted Mahler's excellent article. The sharpener Ted got had "Rocket Crayon Sharpener" printed on it as well as saying "Patented". The one I have says "Pat. Pending" which I believe to be a earlier one. This leads me to believe that the Leeds Sweete company found out what Orville was doing with their sharpener and started printing "Rocket" on it.

Ted, if you read this, I was trying to get the info that you received from Quest but, Matt no longer works there and since they moved Nettie said she wasn't sure when they might be able to help. Nettie asked me if I had contacted you. So, any chance I could get some of the info that you received?


I will gather it up!!! I am still waiting on a description.
I don"t see the History Section of Quest happing soon. That is why I was looking here!

Ted

Tedster 03-10-2008 09:37 PM

So I am seeing two things here:

1. That the Mark II was a kit sold to the public or,,,,,
2. That the Mark II was an inside kit, given only to G.H.S.

I see lots (what looks like a lot) in the article that sells rocketry to the public.

shockwaveriderz 03-12-2008 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedster
So I am seeing two things here:

1. That the Mark II was a kit sold to the public or,,,,,
2. That the Mark II was an inside kit, given only to G.H.S.

I see lots (what looks like a lot) in the article that sells rocketry to the public.


huh?

terry dean
nar 16158

Tedster 03-14-2008 07:05 AM

Does anyone have a photo of the hardwood engine mount used on the Mark II? How about the bottom of a nose cone?

shockwaveriderz 03-14-2008 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedster
Does anyone have a photo of the hardwood engine mount used on the Mark II? How about the bottom of a nose cone?


Ted:

I can't help you much with the bottom of the nose cone, but if you look at the Carlisle patent it shows a view of the engine mount. If my memory serves me correctly, in the Carlisle mMArk 1 the motor mount was made from metal and the drawing seems to support the case for an "doughnut hole" type of motor mount where the motor is more or less pressed and squeezed into place in the donut hole itself. I would make a SWAG that Orvillse kept this motor mount for his Mark 2 and just used hardwood instead of metal.

You have to remember that intially the Mark 1 and Mark 2 only used Carlisle hand made motors from his arbor press. He didn't use a metal sleeve surrounding the motor so under pressure the paper casing would "bulge" out slightly. Vern estes when he was doing his iinitial motor testing on his pre-Mabel hydraulic press, which allowed Vern much higher press presures than Carlisles hand operated arbor press, also discovered the tendency of the paper casing to bulge under pressure, and he solved it by using a metal sleeve round the paper caisng, thus containing any tendency to bulge.

I have a Sept 1958 Aerobee-Hi build artcile and there is no mention on how the motor is retained within the model.

In a "build" article from Jan 1960 on the MMI Arcon , it states "In the original kit, a plastic "COLLAR" (My emphasis) is cemented inside the rocket body, against which the solid-propellant engine is fitted". On the 1st firing, the motor ejected instead of the nose cone being fired free. Checking with the manufacturer we (were instructed) to slip a rubber band around the motor and it then stayed in the rocket body and fired off the nose cone so the parachute came free and lowered the unti to the earth. Rubber bands are now used instead of the plastic collar. "

The way I interpret the above was that they used a simple plastic colarr or ring to friction fit the motors into. This obviously is not a real good solution, so they used a simple rubber band to provide a even better friction fit. I guess they had not invented the use of masking tape yet.

I'm sure there are some people reading this that probably have an unbuilt MMI Aerobee-Hi or Arcon stashed away that they could look at and provide pics of the collars or motor mounts used. Or perhaps paper instructions in the kit?

hth

ted: pm me offline ?

terry dean
nar 16158

Mark II 03-15-2008 12:36 AM

Photos of the Carlisle Rock-A-Chute Mark I and Mark II models can be found accompanying GH Stine's article in the May, 1970 issue of Model Rocketry.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n08_05-70.pdf

Mark

Tedster 03-15-2008 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
Ted:

I can't help you much with the bottom of the nose cone, but if you look at the Carlisle patent it shows a view of the engine mount. ....

terry dean
nar 16158


I looked at the patent and sure enough, it shows a cross section of the engine mount. I will try for a friction fit. Still wish I had a photo of the rear end of a Mark II. I think that one that Bill S. has was one of the original ones built by O.C. !!!!

Ted

Tedster 03-15-2008 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark II
Photos of the Carlisle Rock-A-Chute Mark I and Mark II models can be found accompanying GH Stine's article in the May, 1970 issue of Model Rocketry.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v02n08_05-70.pdf

Mark


No photo of the engine mount,,,,,rats!

Tedster 03-19-2008 09:49 PM

So what does the launcher for the Mark II look like? O.C. used a variable angle dowel. I have seen some low res pictures of the launcher, anyone have a good drawing or photo of the O.C. launcher? Heck, I'll take low res!

Rocket Doctor 03-19-2008 09:54 PM

If you want to see some great MMI articles and photos, get your hands on some vintage American Modeler or American Aircraft Modeler magazines for 1959 - 1970.

Great articles and AD's, you can pick them up on ebay under back issues, or, just put in the buy column, American Modeler or ?American Aircraft Modeler , the list will come up.

Watch out for the prices, alot of the seller want a fortune for single issues, while other seller have complete years.

Happy hunting.

Mark II 03-21-2008 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
In a "build" article from Jan 1960 on the MMI Arcon , it states "In the original kit, a plastic "COLLAR" (My emphasis) is cemented inside the rocket body, against which the solid-propellant engine is fitted". On the 1st firing, the motor ejected instead of the nose cone being fired free. Checking with the manufacturer we (were instructed) to slip a rubber band around the motor and it then stayed in the rocket body and fired off the nose cone so the parachute came free and lowered the unti to the earth. Rubber bands are now used instead of the plastic collar. "

The way I interpret the above was that they used a simple plastic colarr or ring to friction fit the motors into. This obviously is not a real good solution, so they used a simple rubber band to provide a even better friction fit. I guess they had not invented the use of masking tape yet.
terry dean
nar 16158

If he put a few wraps of a rubber band around the motor, and then friction-fitted it into (or forced it through) the plastic collar, he could have had some, or maybe even all, of the rubber band coils acting as a "retro thrust" ring (similar to a conventional thrust ring, but situated on the other side of the mount). The rubber would be compressed as it was forced through the ring, and then would rebound once it got through, so that it would form itself into a (sort of) reverse thrust collar. (Masking tape wouldn't rebound like that if it was forced through the plastic ring.) Possible??? :confused:

Mark

shockwaveriderz 03-21-2008 04:38 PM

Theres a circa 1963 G. H Stine designed Astron Mark over on Ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-60s-Est...tem120234661702

terry dean
nar 16158

shockwaveriderz 04-18-2008 10:55 AM

SO...is any progress being made on making clone copies of the Mark II nose cone?

terry dean
nar 16158

Tedster 04-21-2008 08:00 PM

It has gone nowhere. I have in the past made a mold of the "nose cone" and made copies. I need to make hollow nose cones because the castings I make are heavy. I've recently had two brain operations and am currently undergoing 6 weeks of radiation. I had a brain tumor that was taken out in the operations. Right now 90-95% of the tumor has been removed. Radiation should get the rest. I am sorry I have not answered all the questions. I thought I would be more active by this time. Interacting in the groups is about all I can muster. Waiting for Vern to get back to me on the Camroc. I can type a bunch with little effort!

Ted Mahler

marslndr 04-22-2008 05:47 PM

2 Attachment(s)
For what its worth, here is a photo of the Mark II from the museum of flight at Boeing field just south of Seattle.

The 2nd photo is of the rock a chute launcher.

Hope this can be of any use.

Tedster,

I hope your recovery is going well. My thoughts and prayers are with you.


Mark

shockwaveriderz 04-22-2008 05:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tedster
It has gone nowhere. I have in the past made a mold of the "nose cone" and made copies. I need to make hollow nose cones because the castings I make are heavy. I've recently had two brain operations and am currently undergoing 6 weeks of radiation. I had a brain tumor that was taken out in the operations. Right now 90-95% of the tumor has been removed. Radiation should get the rest. I am sorry I have not answered all the questions. I thought I would be more active by this time. Interacting in the groups is about all I can muster. Waiting for Vern to get back to me on the Camroc. I can type a bunch with little effort!

Ted Mahler


thansk Ted I was just wondering. Don't worry about it. just get well.

terry dean
nar 16158

Arley Davis 05-08-2008 08:44 AM

I have a Mark II, and as you can see from JimZ there are only 2 differences I can see from the Mark and the Mark II. Both have streamers but the Mark II brakes apart at the coupler instead of at the nose cone, and the Mark II was the first rocket to come with Decals. As for the Body tubes all three rockets the Scout and the 2 Markís were all BT-30 tubes., as will as the K-3 Space Plane and the K-14 Sprite. As for the nose cones on the Mark and Mark II they were both BNC-30E.

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k-02.htm

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k_02.htm

Arley Davis 05-08-2008 09:13 AM

If you wish to clone any of the BT- 30 rockets Semroc has the nose cones and Body tubes, and the BT-20 body Tube can be used for a coupler. As for the Decals on the Mark II, Iím positive that Excelsior Rocketry can make them up in no time for their real simple black decals.

http://www.semroc.com/Store/Products/NoseCones.asp

http://www.semroc.com/Store/Products/BodyTubes.asp

http://towrowrow.tripod.com/excelsiorrocketry/

Royatl 05-08-2008 09:43 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arley Davis
I have a Mark II, and as you can see from JimZ there are only 2 differences I can see from the Mark and the Mark II. Both have streamers but the Mark II brakes apart at the coupler instead of at the nose cone, and the Mark II was the first rocket to come with Decals. As for the Body tubes all three rockets the Scout and the 2 Markís were all BT-30 tubes., as will as the K-3 Space Plane and the K-14 Sprite. As for the nose cones on the Mark and Mark II they were both BNC-30E.

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k-02.htm

http://www.dars.org/jimz/k_02.htm



Hi Arley,

With the exception of Terry's post, we're not talking about the Estes Mark and Mark II. We're talking about Orville Carlisle's original model rockets from 1954 and 1957. The Rock-A-Chute Mark I which looked like a skyrocket on stilts, and the Rock-A-Chute Mark II, which looked more like modern model rockets, but had really big fins and a blunt nose cone that was made from a popular plastic crayon sharpener of the time (a replica of the Mark II is available from Semroc).


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