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Scott_650 01-29-2021 09:39 PM

Aerotech/Quest - F52C Enerjet 66.2 N-sec, 1.3 sec burn time, USPS mailable, 5-8-12 delays, mimics original exhaust, updated old style Enerjet graphics, Spring release, 29mm G8/12ST long burn/end burner motors, 130/144 N-sec, plugged only, Spring release too, three new/bring backs from Quest - Sport, Lightning (30mm diam), Icarus (35mm diam) - 24mm with included 18mm adapters - Icarus w/wood fins the others plastic, 24x70mm D22W QJets - 19.3 N-sec, E26W QJets, 27.9 N-sec (Estes E9 equivalent) - both motors lighter than BP equivalent and both mailable, BlackMax QJets coming eventually, L and M long burn motors definite possibility, Blue Thunder QJets a definite possibility too, more reloads (Redload?) for the 29mm Hobby-line case.

turbofireball 01-29-2021 09:55 PM

I have two observations. It seemed that Randy Boadway/eRockets was slated to present stuff. What happened? Hope everything is ok.

Secondly, Estes really didn't show a lot new from the last manufacturer's forum. There was a rehash of kits already available (no discussion about the Big Red Max), a more complete Dark-1 (X24 Buglike kit), Mars Snooper upscale box (no built-up), the new Antar was shown, AstroCam by itself, new igniters (same as last time), and the new catalog. Really the only thing else announced officially was an Upscale Orbital Transport.

Scott_650 01-29-2021 09:56 PM

All the new Aerotech and Quest motors are TRA certified and either currently have or will have California Fire Marshal approval by the time they go on sale.

Scott_650 01-29-2021 09:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofireball
I have two observations. It seemed that Randy Boadway/eRockets was slated to present stuff. What happened? Hope everything is ok.

Secondly, Estes really didn't show a lot new from the last manufacturer's forum. There was a rehash of kits already available (no discussion about the Big Red Max), a more complete Dark-1 (X24 Buglike kit), Mars Snooper upscale box (no built-up), the new Antar was shown, AstroCam by itself, new igniters (same as last time), and the new catalog. Really the only thing else announced officially was an Upscale Orbital Transport.

Randy popped up in the “window” during an early presentation for a moment but I didn’t see him after that. He looked good by the way.

Bill Stine said to watch whatever rocket it is he drops during the Estes tour Sunday for a big hint on what the forthcoming licensed rocket is. I’m guessing it’s something from SpaceX.

turbofireball 01-29-2021 10:47 PM

Bill stated that the contracts with possibly SpaceX were not settled yet, thus he wouldn't comment on it. He also said the video of the factory tour was shot earlier, so I doubt a SpaceX kit would show up for the same reason. He also stated it was a scale kit, not a licensed kit, and Bill tends to be very careful with his wording.
I am also surprised he didn't show another new item that Estes has already told the hobby shops/distributors is coming soon.

BEC 01-29-2021 11:42 PM

Yeah, I wondered what happened to Randy Boadway. He did pop onto the screen early on, but maybe he just couldn't hang in when the thing ran 40 minutes over even without him. I expect he's still recovering.

I think the biggest surprise for me was the 24mm x 70mm Q-Jet D22s and E26s. I can think of a few models that are set up for C11/D12 that will literally get quite a kick out of those, including that Super Mars Snooper that Bill Stine mentioned, since he said it will be 24mm. At NARAM last summer he was soliciting input as to whether it should be 18mm or 24mm. Glad the latter won out.

I thought those faux nozzles that Matt Steele showed that will fit over the 29mm Estes screw-on retainer rings were a cool idea. I'll be watching for those.

ghrocketman 01-30-2021 02:14 AM

I see a mention of the C5-0 coming back from Estes

Was there any mention/discussion of a possible return of the B8 series
engines ?
Getting at least the B8-0 or B14-0 back would allow one to fly a 3-stage flight of an Astron Farside, Arrow-300, Centuri T-Bird, or Comanche-3 with a good chance of recovering all stages.

Scott_650 01-30-2021 06:03 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I see a mention of the C5-0 coming back from Estes

Was there any mention/discussion of a possible return of the B8 series
engines ?
Getting at least the B8-0 or B14-0 back would allow one to fly a 3-stage flight of an Astron Farside, Arrow-300, Centuri T-Bird, or Comanche-3 with a good chance of recovering all stages.

No discussion of specific new Estes motors past the C5-0 - just a very broad mention of motors with different/more power.

Gary Rosenfield specifically said there’s not going to be any QJets smaller than 18mm - so no 13mm motors.

Scott_650 01-30-2021 08:03 AM

So who’s presentation do I watch live this afternoon - John Coker’s on dual deployment or our own Bernard Cawley’s on altimeters? Whichever I pick I’ll watch the recorded version of the other eventually but just like a ballgame, the recorded one’s not the same as live 😉

Scott_650 01-30-2021 08:34 AM

For those of you who avoid TRF here’s the link to the Aerotech presentation http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/up...sentation. pdf

Ltvscout 01-30-2021 08:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_650
For those of you who avoid TRF here’s the link to the Aerotech presentation http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/up...sentation. pdf

Gary had already posted it here:

https://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=19270

:D

snaquin 01-30-2021 09:07 AM

If anyone is attending GPS Systems for Sport Rockets by Will Marchant please post some details here. I just found out I am going to miss this 10:00AM presentation but I will be back around the time of the lunch break to catch all the afternoon stuff I have blocked off. Thanks! :)

BEC 01-30-2021 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_650
So who’s presentation do I watch live this afternoon - John Coker’s on dual deployment or our own Bernard Cawley’s on altimeters? Whichever I pick I’ll watch the recorded version of the other eventually but just like a ballgame, the recorded one’s not the same as live 😉


I guess that is up to you. I have a slide early on that ends with "If you’re looking for info on deployment altimeters, you’re in the wrong talk. Sorry...."

So a clear choice. :D

Royatl 01-31-2021 01:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by snaquin
If anyone is attending GPS Systems for Sport Rockets by Will Marchant please post some details here. I just found out I am going to miss this 10:00AM presentation but I will be back around the time of the lunch break to catch all the afternoon stuff I have blocked off. Thanks! :)


remember we'll have 30 days to watch any/all of the sessions. And those that haven't registered can still register, even after the conference ends.

Just $25! a Steal.

Scott_650 01-31-2021 02:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofireball
Bill stated that the contracts with possibly SpaceX were not settled yet, thus he wouldn't comment on it. He also said the video of the factory tour was shot earlier, so I doubt a SpaceX kit would show up for the same reason. He also stated it was a scale kit, not a licensed kit, and Bill tends to be very careful with his wording.
I am also surprised he didn't show another new item that Estes has already told the hobby shops/distributors is coming soon.

You are correct sir - the model he dropped (which WAS edited out but he pointed it out) was...Nike-Hercules! Looked like a fairly small scale, maybe even 13mm powered but it was a very short view.

Scott_650 01-31-2021 02:37 PM

Bill just mentioned a specific future motor - higher powered B class booster.

Scott_650 01-31-2021 02:55 PM

It sounds like the future licensed SpaceX and Blue Origin rockets from Estes will be part of the 1/200 RTF line like the Saturn V and SLS. I can see that - those are dual purpose flyable/display models.

Scott_650 01-31-2021 03:25 PM

A definite but disappointing answer from the chat session after the Estes video tour - no 29mm motors coming to Hobby Lobby. We can infer that also means no 29mm powered kits at Hobby Lobby as welll since they only stock complimentary rockets/motors.

ghrocketman 01-31-2021 05:35 PM

Liking to hear there will be a higher power B motor and a small Nike Herc.

Ltvscout 01-31-2021 05:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_650
Bill just mentioned a specific future motor - higher powered B class booster.

Maybe a B with the number 14 after it? :D :chuckle:

BEC 02-01-2021 12:50 AM

My bet will be that it'll be an 8 rather than 14 — but that will still be something useful indeed.

ghrocketman 02-01-2021 01:28 AM

Be it a B8 or B14, either in a -0 delay will be most welcome as a booster instead of the B6-0.
One could reliably again fly a 3-stage 18mm powered rocket without fear of an extreme VEER upon clearing the launch rod.

Once this happens, they can discontinue the B6-0 and nobody will miss it.
It would be great if we could get the B8 or B14 back in -3,5,7, and 0 delays. Not sure why the B14-6 ever existed...seems like an un-needed delay.

In the past I probably used more B14-0s than any other B14. The B14-7 was a close second.

snaquin 02-01-2021 08:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
remember we'll have 30 days to watch any/all of the sessions. And those that haven't registered can still register, even after the conference ends.

Just $25! a Steal.

Appreciate it Roy. I didn’t realize while watching the sessions over the weekend that it was as easy as switching to “show past sessions” to immediately view what I missed. I knew that later some would appear on NAR or YouTube but this is great. I just watched the Estes Tour with Bill Stine that I missed Sunday. Fascinating as I have never been on a tour of Estes and Bill Stine had such an interesting session. How about those glass cases in his office or the rooms packed full of stuff that weren’t on the tour! :)

shockwaveriderz 02-02-2021 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Be it a B8 or B14, either in a -0 delay will be most welcome as a booster instead of the B6-0.
One could reliably again fly a 3-stage 18mm powered rocket without fear of an extreme VEER upon clearing the launch rod.

Once this happens, they can discontinue the B6-0 and nobody will miss it.
It would be great if we could get the B8 or B14 back in -3,5,7, and 0 delays. Not sure why the B14-6 ever existed...seems like an un-needed delay.

In the past I probably used more B14-0s than any other B14. The B14-7 was a close second.


why would anybody want an underpowered B8 or B14.....doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of having either in the 1st place.? The new C5-3 is 1.31 Nsec weaker than the original. The average thrust is 1.35 Nsec less than the original. The old C5 actually was a C5. this new one is C4. The initial thrust spike is almost identical. All of this leads me to believe the culprit is that the BP has a much lower Isp than the 1995 BP did. The old C5 was a 91% C while the new one is a 78% C...... That's a full 13% difference.



for avg Thrust:

Average Thrust = Favg = (propellant weight flowrate) * Isp [Isp = specific impulse]

PS for you that didn't know Estes has used various different BP thruout it's history. For example it started out using DuPont, then Goex, then CIL, KIK, then back to Goex. All BP is not created equal in strength or Isp.

the Dupont plant in PA blew up while they where building the current GOEX plant in LA. The GOEX plant is the only BP manufacturing plant in the US. There used to be several but they either blew up or went out of business. CIL is Canadian Industries Limited. KIK is a Slovenia company or was. Your probably wondering how can BP be weaker or stronger? well it depends primarily on the Charcoal that is used in the manufacture of BP. ie the actual tree types the charcoal is made from. For example some people believe the charcoal in GOEX is made from Maple trees. GOEX has never really divulged exactly what trees it does use. But there are hardwood and softwood charcoals and they end up making different strengths of BP.
GOEX is actually owned by Hogsdon Power company.

I forgot to say that in addition to the actual trees used to make charcoal.....another important step is HOW you make the charcoal from the trees....Depending on the way you "cook" charcoal, ie make it, you can increase the Carbon content, which is what you want, high carbon content charcoal. Poor charcoal and hence poor or low carbon content in the charcoal can result in poor ie weak BP.....

Royatl 02-02-2021 12:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by snaquin
Appreciate it Roy. I didn’t realize while watching the sessions over the weekend that it was as easy as switching to “show past sessions” to immediately view what I missed. I knew that later some would appear on NAR or YouTube but this is great. I just watched the Estes Tour with Bill Stine that I missed Sunday. Fascinating as I have never been on a tour of Estes and Bill Stine had such an interesting session. How about those glass cases in his office or the rooms packed full of stuff that weren’t on the tour! :)


As I said to Bill in an email yesterday, this was a great complement to the in-person tour at NARAM-60 a couple of years ago. At that time, the Langfords had been in charge only four months, and Bill had been there only two. This filled out a number of gaps (we didn't go in the machine shop; we could just peer into John Boren's lab, didn't go upstairs into the exec offices (which probably hadn't been moved into anyway); didn't see the west side of the building at all, no darkrooms, no photo/video studio, no big wood USPS doors, and of course, no access at all into engine manufacturing (just what we could see through an open door in one of the Mabel buildings, from outside the compound).

the video only showed the output of the starter machine and the casing printer though, where we got to examine the details like the welding of the bridge wire, the shaking of loose casings so they'd end up in the correct orientation for printing.

Royatl 02-02-2021 01:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz

I forgot to say that in addition to the actual trees used to make charcoal.....another important step is HOW you make the charcoal from the trees....Depending on the way you "cook" charcoal, ie make it, you can increase the Carbon content, which is what you want, high carbon content charcoal. Poor charcoal and hence poor or low carbon content in the charcoal can result in poor ie weak BP.....


I believe willow wood is the preferred wood to cook black powder charcoal from. Don't know if it's in short supply, can't be grown fast enough, or what.

shockwaveriderz 02-02-2021 02:29 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
I believe willow wood is the preferred wood to cook black powder charcoal from. Don't know if it's in short supply, can't be grown fast enough, or what.

it's preferred by pyrotechs in the fireworks industry to make their home grown BP...the problem with it is there are literally 100's of species..... Ian Von Maltitz, in his book, "Black Powder Manufacturing Testing and Optimizing" has 2 very interesting chapters on Charcoal and woods. IVM of course is the current Estes BP guy. I guess, unless he's been replaced or retired by now.

In propep3, the propellant design tool, they only offer you 3 choices of charcoal: Carbon (Amorphous), Maple or Oak

My favorite is The Role of Charcoal in the combustion of Black Powder 1980...it synthesizes several earlier studies into one and does a comparison/contrast analysis.

Scott_650 02-02-2021 03:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
it's preferred by pyrotechs in the fireworks industry to make their home grown BP...the problem with it is there are literally 100's of species..... Ian Von Maltitz, in his book, "Black Powder Manufacturing Testing and Optimizing" has 2 very interesting chapters on Charcoal and woods. IVM of course is the current Estes BP guy. I guess, unless he's been replaced or retired by now.

In propep3, the propellant design tool, they only offer you 3 choices of charcoal: Carbon (Amorphous), Maple or Oak

My favorite is The Role of Charcoal in the combustion of Black Powder 1980...it synthesizes several earlier studies into one and does a comparison/contrast analysis.


Big disclaimer - I am not an amateur fireworks or pyrotechnics guy, have NO interest in becoming one, and know nothing about the website witchatabuggywhip or the people who own it or provide content (they could be red headed lizard eating tree worshipers from Pluto for all I know).

This discussion sent me down the BP and charcoal rabbit hole while I waited to watch SN-9 crash even harder than SN-8 - sure glad that “abrupt” less than nominal landing didn’t take out SN-10! I found an interesting website about the potential differences in BP formulation with burn trough tests of a bunch of different charcoals used in what I assume is amateur made BP:

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fir...2.html#charcoal

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fir...coal_tests.html

The variation in powders based on what tree the charcoal came from is, at least to me as a thought exercise, fascinating.

shockwaveriderz 02-02-2021 03:36 PM

Scott: check this out:
https://pyrodata.com/chemicals/Charcoal

Scott_650 02-02-2021 03:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz

These amateur fireworks folks are even bigger data nerds than rocketeers!

ghrocketman 02-03-2021 09:10 AM

Wow !
That pyro site has a LOT of info.
One would think a company that uses as much BP as Estes could specify how the composition is to be made.
I know in my industry (automotive) we specify what we want and the supplier better do it or someone else who will gets the contract. Either that or maybe they should blend their own BP to ensure the isp is "up to spec" instead of just accepting "whatever GOEX give them".
I would think Estes would be one of their largest customers and losing the contract would be a big loss of revenue.

PaulK 02-06-2021 08:33 AM

So, back on topic, Virtual NARCON was a hit as far as I'm concerned. The Estes tour by Bill was a great way to end it, and the last question he answered was a great way to end the Q&A. How many of us eventually get our dream job?

I found it interesting that he still hasn't explored the whole place, stuff keeps turning up. Including a bunch of film, hopefully including the film shown for tours (that I no doubt saw in the early 70s).

BEC 02-06-2021 12:16 PM

Agreed. That there are rooms full of stuff that hasn't been looked at in years gives hope for all sorts of interesting finds. It makes me want to go on a road trip and volunteer to do a little cleaning of the metaphorical closets.... :D

Initiator001 02-06-2021 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofireball
I have two observations. It seemed that Randy Boadway/eRockets was slated to present stuff. What happened? Hope everything is ok.

<SNIP>


Randy is fine.

He posted on the NAR Facebook page that he was having internet problems and couldn't take part in the Manufacturers' Forum.

On that same Facebook post he has a video he was hoping to present about the new building he has moved eRockets/Semroc into. New product for Semroc is the Scissor-Wing Transport.

ghrocketman 02-06-2021 11:22 PM

Wonder what is going on with the Semroc upscaled Orbital Transport ?


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