The End of Semroc?

[Carl@Semroc]

We received a disturbing packet via courier today. It was from DrinkerBiddle & Reath LLP, representing Hobbico Inc. and Estes-Cox Corporation. It states that it has copyrighted their designs over the years and we are violating copyright and trademark law by replicating any "pictorial, graphic and sculptural elements" of their designs.

They say they own any design pictured in any publication they distributed throughout the years. They single out 17 from their 1974 catalog as an example. I understand how they own the pictures for the Laser-X, Starfire and others, but they also say we have to stop making the Little Joe II, Arcon and Aerobee-350, since they copyrighted them as well. Also in the same catalog were the Saturn 1B and Saturn V as examples of "well-known and popular copies of existing spacecraft." They mention our plans to sell additional models subject to these and other Estes-Cox copyrights.

They also state that we use their logos in a manner that implies authorization, affiliation, license and association with them. Evidently, we have not been clear enough over the years that we did not have anything to do with Estes-Cox.

The complaint is broad enough to cover any products they have depicted in the photos in their catalogs. This would likely include their nose cone shapes, body tube design, rings, chutes, launch lugs, and most of the other 2200 parts we have online. Since most of our revenue comes from parts sales, that would kill us as a company. If they think they can copyright a Little Joe II, then they certainly can "copyright" a BNC-60L design.

From my discussions with an attorney in the past, this complaint is without basis. The intention of the copyright law is not to stifle commerce by allowing a company to copyright a picture of a product and prevent anyone else from reverse-engineering and improving the original product. We have been careful over the years to avoid patent infringement, trademark infringement, and copyright infringement.

We do not know how this is going to play out. I do not respond well to bullies. If they do pursue this and drive us into bankruptcy, it has been a fun ride for all of us. It is futile to defend ourselves against a company that Barry Tunic estimated to be two hundred times our size. It is even more so to go against a company that owns it that is thousands of times bigger than us. We cannot afford a lawyer; we cannot even afford a good meal for a lawyer. The amount of money we have taken in over the years is miniscule, believe me! They just want us to go away. We have been content for the last eight years snacking on the “crumbs” they were not interested in keeping. Our mission has been to provide the models, parts, and services that they were not interested in providing.

We will not re-kit any of the “infringing” products until this is resolved. We have until August 19, 2010 to “resolve this difference amicably,” so when the existing stock is gone, it will probably be gone. It is hard to go out of business “amicably.”

Thanks to all our friends for everything you have done for us!

[Jerry Irvine]

It could very well be to resolve it amicably, you opt not to contest and admit their copyrights, but nonetheless agree to operate within limits they "permit".

Since it is clearly true you are tiny and not competitive from a business perspective, their motive is clearly to not forsake any rights they would have so long as they enforce them.

You should give them what they legally need, by saying without specifically what you are referring to, that you presume many of the items you sell either violate their property or confuse the consumer you might be. You should come up with a mutually agreeable "disclaimer and admission" that you in no way make claims to such ownership, but that you simply sell parts and kits that resemble the wonderful work they do/did and in the event they release a "similar product" on a mass basis they reserve the right to ask you to withdraw that particular product from market for the period of time Hobbico is actively selling it.

One thing you could do is volunteer to pay a license fee, perhaps 5% of net, to Hobbico as an active and ongoing admission of their property rights. It wouldn't be much money, but it would have the legal standing they require.

Barry said in his YORF interview he was simply not enforcing against you but declared you in violation and reserved the right to sue. That public claim is another variant from the technique Hobbico used.

My advise is to make a license offer along the lines of what I just said.

What nobody wants to see is Estes lose their rights and a cheap, crappy Chinese clone come out of Tridents and Interceptors and Goblins and everybody lose out.

One thing I know about you and everyone here, we all love Estes and wish Hobbico the very best.

Your niche seems to be a cross between "after market" and "tribute".

Jerry

[Bazookadale]

I sure hope you can resolve this Carl, you and your family are some of the best people in the industry

[Malcolm]

Do different parts types and construction techniques provide enough separation between prior designs and your work? FSI and others are not covered by the Hobbico claim. You could, if capital permits so the SLS route with a fair number of the designs and probably be far enough off for protection. If necessary, the royalty route may be the way to go with a nominal payment per kit that you could pass on to the buying public.

Estes/Hobbico would be destroying the recent goodwill that they have created over new engine releases and old kits if they tried to put you out of business.

Malcolm Smith
NAR & TRA L2

[genimijim]

WOW!

This is disturbing news Carl.

I have enjoyed your Semroc products and the thought of "The End of Semroc" leaves an empty feeling in my stomach.

Thanks for what all of you have done at Semroc..............

:mad:

Jim

[STRMan]

I want to say I'm in shock Carl, but I'm not.

A year ago my little sub-S corporation had a conflict with a much bigger more powerful corporation. An extremely unethical lawyer representing them realized they had a position of leverage over me in a dispute we had, and even though my own legal consul stated we would probably prevail, the legal fees to fight them and the disruption to my business would come back to cost me much more than they were trying to leverage out of me. I was forced to make a deal with the devil even though I KNEW I was right and they were WRONG.

I hope Hobbico comes to their senses and realizes SEMROC is a DRIVING force in making models that consume THEIR main product, ENGINES. A HYDRA 7 consumes 7 at once! They should be sending you a royalty check for goodness sake!

I suspect if they persist, the momentum of good will they have been basking in lately will dry up rather quickly. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!

What a sad turn of events following NARAM. I hope this situation plays out better for you than it did for me.

Maybe it is time to dust off that old engine making machine you have stored in the back room. That'll get their attention. ;)

[Malcolm]

Carl,

How many and which of your kits are not immediately impacted by this threat? It may be time for me to build inventory for my great-great grandchildren.

Malcolm Smith

[Jerry Irvine]

In addition to the license agreement they may also be wiling to offer you a wholesale purchase agreement that puts you in a favorable position for niche retail sales of in-production Estes product over the internet.

Jerry

[barone]

I'm at a loss of words. Where is GH?

[o1d_dude]

This is a most unpleasant turn of events.

I hereby declare a moratorium on the purchase of Hobbico and Estes products (rockets, motors, planes, tools, etc.) on my part until this particular issue is favorably resolved.

Who's with me?

[scigs30]

Carl, I was really hoping you would have been contracted by Estes to produce balsa parts, I guess that is not going to happen. You have done so much over the years for this hobby that I cannot thank you enough. I hope you get through this and Hobbico comes to there senses. Good luck, our prayers are with you.

[GuyNoir]

(mutter grumble)

This stinks.

As opposed to cursing the darkness, I lit a candle.

I ordered a bunch of kits from Semroc.

They deserve my business.

I encourage others to do likewise.

[Sunward]

I called and had a long chat with Carl on the phone. He is not very happy to say the least.

He is recovering from his heart attack and was doing well until today. The last thing he needs is stress and this just gave him lots of it.

I gave him my opinion but I am not a lawyer. (Those comments are private and I won't discuss them here) I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night either. I advised Carl to contact a lawyer and respond before the 19th.

I don't think it will be a problem, but I do advise every one to be careful with what they say on the forum, in emails, on in PM's as the messages can be subpoenaed.

[Malcolm]

I'm with Guy Black. Aphelion and XK23 are Semroc designed kits. I think a couple more for inventory or my wife's gala he's dead and I can now sell his stuff sale, whichever comes first is a great idea.

Malcolm Smith

[John Brohm]

...

The complaint is broad enough to cover any products they have depicted in the photos in their catalogs. This would likely include their nose cone shapes, body tube design, rings, chutes, launch lugs, and most of the other 2200 parts we have online. Since most of our revenue comes from parts sales, that would kill us as a company. If they think they can copyright a Little Joe II, then they certainly can "copyright" a BNC-60L design.

...

Thanks to all our friends for everything you have done for us!

Very sorry to hear this, Carl. Maybe these are good business tactics for Hobbico, but they're not going to help anyone else.

I'm surprised that they would pursue all of this from a copyright angle, but it would seem that their legal team has a strategy in mind. I'd be a little more worried about the commercial sale of reproduction decals - decals are, in fact, copyrightable material.

[hcmbanjo]

Carl,
I'm sorry to see this development.

You and your family at Semroc have given all of us a fitting tribute to what Model Rocketry was and should be.

[scigs30]

This will more than likely open up a can of worms....What about BMS? More Rockets? After Market decals? The list goes on. Hobbico is a big Giant and I think we are now seeing the good with the bad since they took over Estes.

[scigs30]

I guess I better download the plans from Jimz and Ye Old Rocket Shoppe before Hobbico attacks that.

[Jerry Irvine]

I guess I better download the plans from Jimz and Ye Old Rocket Shoppe before Hobbico attacks that.
All those resources should actively state they recognize all intellectual property rights Estes-Cox has or might claim are not being contested. That these things are being offered as a historical tribute and niche after market products and in every way we encourage purchase of any and all shipping Estes-Cox products, especially engines!

Jerry

[bacasino]

My thoughts and prayers are with you and yours Carl. I hope all turns out well for you in the end.

[Blushingmule]

I AM!

I just returned from NARAM 52 yesterday.

Carl, Sheryl, and Bruce are the friendliest people that I've ever met.
Why Hobbico would do this; knowing that model rocketry is a niche market is beyond me.

Looks like an order is going to be underway tonight!

Bob

[GregGleason]

First of all, thanks Carl for posting about this.

There are a lot of ways this can go, and I am hoping for the amicable solution for all parties.

Greg

[Jerry Irvine]

Isn't the heart attack as bad or worse of a concern as a request to come to an amicable agreement with Estes? Who is going to do Semroc if you get sick again?

Jerry

[dwmzmm]

Wow, sorry to hear about this Carl! What a way to start after NARAM. My thoughts & prayers are with you and your family. I hope this gets resolved on favorable terms for all of us.

[Gingerdawg]

The complaint is broad enough to cover any products they have depicted in the photos in their catalogs. This would likely include their nose cone shapes, body tube design, rings, chutes, launch lugs, and most of the other 2200 parts we have online. Since most of our revenue comes from parts sales, that would kill us as a company. If they think they can copyright a Little Joe II, then they certainly can "copyright" a BNC-60L design.

Carl, first let me say this sux, and we are behind you and yours 100%.


If NAPA can produce a distributor cap as a replacemnet part for a chevy, and GM can't prevent it, then how can Estes prevent Semroc from producing replacement parts for an Astron Alpha?
I suppose the point may be moot, if it comes down to the big guy financialy squeezing the little guy even though he is wrong.

further, I believe estes, at least through the prior owners, has already given up some of it's rights by not previously "protecting" their intellectual property.

[PaulK]

Wow. Just like that, all the goodwill they've tried to build recently is gone, *poof*. I hope it doesn't end like this, I've really appreciated all that Semroc has offered over the years, and even more so, the folks behind the company. I wish there were something we could do to help.

[Bluegrass Rocket]

Carl,

I, like the others, can't believe the "goodwill" that has seemingly disappeared. This is the last thing I would have thought of happening. Guess I won't be making any more square clones either. I know they have big money and can end up doing whatever they want, probably, but here is something I found while looking for answers.

LIMITATIONS ON THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS
The copyright owner's exclusive rights are subject to a number of exceptions and limitations that give others the right to make limited use of a copyrighted work. Major exceptions and limitations are outlined in this section.
Ideas
Copyright protects only against the unauthorized taking of a protected work's "expression." It does not extend to the work's ideas, procedures, processes, systems, methods of operation, concepts, principles, or discoveries.

With this statement from Copyright Law, you can continue to make all parts for any rocket kit.

Just like the Saturn V for example. They can copyright their picture of their Saturn V but nothing else. They can't make you NOT make your "expression" of a Saturn V. Especially if you only offer the parts and not a kit. If there is any other copyright involving a Saturn V, I would think someone at NASA would hold it. This would follow through with any Scale or real rocket.

Just talking out loud.

[STRMan]

You know, I just popped on to check out this thread again. There were no new updates since my last visit earlier this evening. When I saw this thread was stagnant, but there were 2 other active threads both with the word ESTES in the subject line, I just felt "blah" and didn't even bother to open them. I'm also in the camp that until this is resolved fairly and as "amicably" as possible, I have just lost all enthusiasm for any thing ESTES.

Maybe I'll start looking into making sugar engines on my own.

Then again, this can be a huge opportunity for Quest to start expanding their engine selection.

Carl, I'm in your corner 100%!

[Royatl]

Guys,

I'm going to hold judgement on Estes/Hobbico for a few days.

This may very well be just a 'CYA' letter so that it can be shown that they are defending their copyrights and trademarks.

The lawyers may actually want some small changes that would be perfectly reasonable.

I'd like for Carl to call Mary, or even to call Rick Piester at Hobbico, and avoid the lawyering until absolutely necessary. It would have been better for one of them to have called him *before* the lawyers sent the letter, but since I've had three friends become lawyers recently, I know how necessarily but unfairly nasty they have to be at times.

[Earl]

This is just hard news to take.

Honestly, I just don't see how they could begin to enforce any 'copyright' claim to models of 'actual' rockets/spacecraft. I mean really, they don't 'own' the Saturn V, Saturn 1b, or Little Joe II designs at all. Those 'designs' were paid for by the American taxpayer actually, and as such, anyone should be free and able to produce models, kits, representations, etc. and market those to their heart's content.

As for the Arcon and Aerobee, those were not Estes/Cox/Centuri (whoever....) designs either. Actually, THOSE designs did eminate from a commercial third party, and I'm sure back in the day Estes and Centuri had to obtain some type of release from the respective companies that developed THOSE vehicles to market a model thereof. If those companies still exist, I would think that Semroc (should they desire) could go to those companies just as Estes/Centuri did 'back in the day' in obtain permission to produce a kit today. It would be hard to imagine that Hobbico could stop that.

If Semroc wanted to produce a model Space Shuttle tomorrow, I do not see how Hobbico could even begin to think they could stop you from doing it simply because they marketed a flying Space Shuttle model at one time! That's rediculous to me. Or...how about the V-2? Are they saying Semroc cannot produce THAT kit either, simply because THEY marketed one in the past?

As for their 'internal' designs (Laser-X, etc.) that is a bit different. But, if they allowed those designs to enter 'free enterprise' without defending them for X number of years, then they may have lost their copyright on those. I'm no lawyer, but I would think their case might be somewhat flimsy in some instances.

Carl, I appreciate what you are saying about the cost of trying to fight something like this. If anyone knows a lawyer that might be willing to work with Carl on this pro-bona (I believe that is the term), that would certainly be great.

Also, Carl do you believe a 'letter writing' campaign (or 'email campaign') by the members here (in a diplomatic, yet passionate manner) to the principles of Hobbico on your behalf be in order right now, or would you prefer for us to hold off on that until you can discuss things with them? I think many of us would send off a letter of 'please back off Semroc' tomorrow to Hobbico if you feel that would help.

I would be highly inclined not to do any business at all with Estes if THIS is the kind of game they are gonna play.

Does someone have any direct friendship with Ricky Piester (or through his dad Lee) that could possibly talk some sense into Hobbico with this thing? This really just seems completely petty on their part.

Carl, I'll pray for a positive solution to this entire thing that will allow you folks to stay in business and continue to supply the parts you do. You are too valuable a resource to loose!

Best Regards,

Earl

[mycrofte]

I say boycott Estes...

[BEC]

To say I'm aghast would be an understatement. I wish I had some real contacts within Hobbico, but I don't any more. I'm not sure I ever did, really.

Perhaps it can work out as described by stickershock over the TRF thread. I surely hope so and will add some prayers for your health, in particular, Carl.

Suddenly I'm not so excited about buying more Estes motors or kits either.... and will probably get more motors on the Quest sale this weekend than I had originally planned.

Gotta put together another Semroc order, too...even though the last one is still in transit to me.

[Mark II]

Sorry, folks, I haven't been on this forum for awhile due to an access issue. Anyway, having just read one other Estes thread (http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=7498), and now this one, I would say that Big E needs to fire their lawyers and quick, before the recently hatched golden goose completely expires.

[UMRS]

And the problem is, alot of the goodwill built a NARAM will now turn into negative energy.

Coming from a family of lawyers & cops Im amazed sometimes how little lawyers understand the depth of a situation there representing.

To go after probably the torch holder of keeping the old designs/ways alive is worse than shooting yourself in the foot.

Even if this is a hollow threat to use as a bargaining tool for some type of consession from Semroc and no actual litigation takes place. The Damage Hobbico has done to themselves and the Estes name is deplorable.

[mperdue]

This is a most unpleasant turn of events.

I hereby declare a moratorium on the purchase of Hobbico and Estes products (rockets, motors, planes, tools, etc.) on my part until this particular issue is favorably resolved.

Who's with me?

Count me in.

[UMRS]

The rest of my two cents, theres more than just Semroc making clone kits or using LJ II names and other "kit names" Estes has used thoughout the years.

Im looking at this as an "attack" on the kit cloning industry, which is keeping several cottage suppliers in this business afloat.

Were not quite ready to call for a boycott yet. However we were working to start offering more Estes kits through a new distributor. Those plans will now be put on hold until this is resolved.

[jflis]

Carl,

We've talked (and will no doubt talk some more :) ) so you know where I'm coming from.

What a kick in the teeth, eh? After spending a week socializing with the whole crew to boot.

man...

[GregGleason]

Guys,

I'm going to hold judgement on Estes/Hobbico for a few days.

This may very well be just a 'CYA' letter so that it can be shown that they are defending their copyrights and trademarks.

The lawyers may actually want some small changes that would be perfectly reasonable.

I'd like for Carl to call Mary, or even to call Rick Piester at Hobbico, and avoid the lawyering until absolutely necessary. It would have been better for one of them to have called him *before* the lawyers sent the letter, but since I've had three friends become lawyers recently, I know how necessarily but unfairly nasty they have to be at times.

These are wise words Roy. It's trying to find out what the Estes/Hobbico end-game is, seeing if it reasonable for Carl/Semroc, and getting it on paper so that everyone understands what the "new" boundaries are.

I do like the "direct contact" approach, as a lot can be learned to get an accurate understanding of their concerns, so that everyone can move forward.

Greg

[lmerdan]

On the note of direct contact, I recommend employing "Investigative Negotiation" to find out what their wants and needs are.

http://hbr.org/product/investigative-negotiation/an/R0709D-PDF-ENG

It was a good article. I picked up the audio version from audible.com. I think it was cheaper there than the pdf copy.

Here is a review of it:
http://www.getmejamienotter.com/getmejamienotter/2007/09/investigative-n.html

[jadebox]

IP lawyers often send out Cease & Desist letters like junk mail. This, of course, is more targeted than the "Kevlar is a trademark" letters I get from DuPont's crack legal team occasionally. But, hopefully, it is just over-reaction by the lawyers.

-- Roger

[Sunward]

use the tubes:

http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

[Randy]

Carl,

After spending a week socializing with the whole crew to boot.

man...

This is sad news bit it's not just about Semroc, it's a shot across the bow to all of those involved with cottage industry rocketry. IMO, they simply mean to drive off one of the better known providers so as to intimidate all the other cottage industry companies into folding or at least hiding in the corners. Every cottage company mentioned in this thread is in now the cross hairs.

If I were Carl I'd be thinking back to who I talked to last week and about what. Even though Semroc has a website and is openly available to all, it sounds to me like they were on a "fishing trip" and something that was said may have triggered the contact. I hear the old song by the O'Jay's "Back Stabbers" playing in the background. I for one would love to know the names of those Carl talked with.

I agree that talking directly with them is the best idea but if that fails, I would be willing to make a donation to a legal fund to help Carl fight Estes if it comes to that. Hopefully others would too. They are counting on Semroc and all others being too small to fight back. ATF thought NAR/TRA couldn't fight back as well.

I also hope Carl will share whatever happens here and on all the forums and name, names. How Estes deals with this will be very intersting to all of us.

I'm sure NASA, Von Braun and Wan Hu, will be getting similar letters from Hobbico by the end of the week.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Jerry Irvine]

A first hand experience with Stickershock posted to TRF:

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=123098&postcount=14

The world is far from at an end. Exactly as I said!

Jerry

[jetlag]

Carl and everyone at Semroc,
I found this thread this morning; my happy feet now have to contend with a huge knot in my stomach. As others have said, you folks are a large reason we are still here, here as customers of yours and of Estes. I, for one, will hold off purchasing any more Estes products until this is resolved. I'm with Jerry when he says don't worry too much, yet. Still, when lawyers have to get involved, it leaves a bad taste. I will help any way I can: I can send help in the form of $, buy more kits from you, write to whomever, etc.
My heart and my prayers are with you and your family.
Please let us know what you would like us to do to help. I think nasty letters to Estes right now is probably counter-productive.
Take care of yourself!!! That is the most important thing. My hope is, of course, that all this good will is not just a front.
I Love You Guys (and Gals)! We are here for you!
Allen

Estes, don't do this. It is BAD. Carl and Semroc are no threat to you, nor have they ever been. If you feel threatened, buy them out. Incorporate their immense expertise; it could be a win-win!

[Dave Hutch]

This is quite disgusting.

I agree with those who think that this may be a "shot across the bow" to all of the small companies that have been helping us BAR's with re-creating the kits of old.

I'm hopeful though that Royatl is correct, and they really just want some acknowledgement or they want to cover themselves, just in case.

(Speculation about what an Anal retentive lawyer from Hobbico might think: "Jeez guys, what happens if someone buys a Laser X from Semroc and flys it into his little brother's eyeball? We are the original kit designers and owners of the name - we could be sued!")

The stuff about not allowing reproductions of scale models though - that is just so much crap. I could kit out a Little Joe 2 tomorrow, and there is not a **** thing Estes could do about it.

As others have said - Carl needs to find out what Hobbico wants. Probably they want protection from lawsuits and/or the ability to put out "classic" kits themselves with no competition. What they DONT want is a large group of influential buyers pissed off at them. Which is what they'll get if they continue to let the lawyers drive the agenda. Company lawyers justify their existence by finding potential unlikely problems. Hobbico and Carl by themselves
could likely resolve any problems amicably.


Way too early to talk of boycotts or negativity towards the new owners of Estes. However if Carl needs a fund for protecting his company, count me in.

ETA: Just read the post from stickershock23. I feel much better now. As long as Semroc can find out what Hobbico really wants, and works with them, things may work out for the best. Sometimes companies should realize that sending a "lawyer letter" is the very last thing they should be doing to resolve a problem. The legal system is by its very nature an antagonistic one, which can lead easily to misunderstandings and hurt feelings by us non-lawyers.

[AKPilot]

Hate to say it, but someone in Penrose (not Hobbico) has raised the concern.

Cross Post (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=123185&postcount=49)

[Shreadvector]

Hate to say it, but someone in Penrose (not Hobbico) has raised the concern.

Cross Post (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=123185&postcount=49)

Do you have proof of that, or is this simply your guess/supposition/conjecture?

[InFlight]

Carl,

We've talked (and will no doubt talk some more :) ) so you know where I'm coming from.

What a kick in the teeth, eh? After spending a week socializing with the whole crew to boot.

man...
So, they were smiling in Carl's face while another was getting ready to stab him in the back?

Now that is classy. :rolleyes:

.

[AKPilot]

Do you have proof of that, or is this simply your guess/supposition/conjecture?

You're an engineer, aren't you? ;)

Plausible theory. If you're livelihood's on the line, it'd be safe to use that theory.

[UMRS]

So, they were smiling in Carl's face while another was getting ready to stab him in the back?

Now that is classy. :rolleyes:

.


Pretty much a poor way to conduct business. Look at the bright side if this spirals out of control at least we know what to buy the hobbico people for christmas.....


A hat with two faces

[mojo1986]

Hate to say it, but someone in Penrose (not Hobbico) has raised the concern.

Cross Post (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=123185&postcount=49)

Hobbico is participating in the model rocketry business now. Doing the research to determine what products were originally created by Estes would be as simple as getting a few old catalogs and going online to a number of informative sites.

What makes you think that someone in Penrose has raised a concern?

[UMRS]

You're an engineer, aren't you? ;)

Plausible theory. If you're livelihood's on the line, it'd be safe to use that theory.


I cant speak of most of your statement, but its a logical thought to look at Semroc as competition. And when it comes to dealing with attorneys what can you say..........

[ghrocketman]

This is absolutely ridiculous.
Carl and his team have provided designs in kit form to us that Estes/Centuri FOR YEARS had ZERO interest in supplying us with.
I cannot say I am surprised about this and was the ONLY thing I worried about when it was announced Hobbico was taking over Estes.
Just when my opinion of Estes was turning around due to the sale and getting rid of Tunick.
If the intent here is to actually get Semroc to cease and decist from producing classic clones of Estes/Centuri designs of the past, I will boycott them in perpetuity for ALL items including engines; I will switch to 100% Aerotech and Quest engines and would suggest others do the same. If this is only an attempt to start dialogue on some sort of small royalty payments, then it is a REALLY CRAPPY way to do it when it could have been hashed out LIKE FRIENDS without involving any money-grubbing lawyers that just cost all parties a ton of unneeded expense.
Either way, my opinion of Hobbico has changed from a positive one to something that cannot be described cleanly on this forum other than to say many members of that company must be FULL OF STEAMING CANINE FECAL MATTER. As bad as Tunick was for Estes, he at least allowed the smaller makers to flourish in areas he had no interest in.

Hopefully this can be resolved quickly in a fair and equitable manner that benefits all parties involved.
Semroc is what actually started my interest back in the hobby after I had been out for many years and only into R/C aircraft. Without Semroc I and their line of "Retro Repro" kits I highly doubt I would even be involved in rocketry again.

[rpiester]

I'm new to posting to this forum but I've been reading for a while.
Here's some quick background for those of you who don't know me. I
literally was born in and grew up in the model rocket business. My
father started Centuri Engineering in my grandmother's garage just
before I was born. I spent many summers and weekends in various
Centuri plant buildings - probably causing trouble... but I learned a
lot from it! I have flown rockets all of my life, helped establish and
run an NAR section, used to compete at NARAM and other events and more
recently have flown rockets with my kids. After my father sold and
left Centuri in the mid 70s, I've been involved in selling rockets as a
retailer, distributor and/or manufacturer continuously for the last 35
years. I've possibly done rockets for a larger percentage of my life
than anyone, except maybe Bill Stine. [I'm told that as a baby I
teethed on balsa nose cones.]

I work for Hobbico who you know recently acquired Estes. My
responsibilities involve creating and promoting our company's private
label products. It's a real thrill for me to be involved with Estes and
all of the good old Centuri products as well. We all know about the
previous (nightmare) era that Estes has been through. Our company is
excited about the changes that have begun for Estes and plan a bright
future and helping to grow the model rocket hobby. We have the
resources to give Estes the support it needs to become great again.
And we are 100%, first and foremost, a hobby company. We're not going
to turn Estes into a toy company and ignore what made it great. And
we're not a faceless corporate giant. 100% of our company is owned by
the 750-or-so employees who work here. That includes the staff in
Penrose at Estes.

I don't think I've ever met Carl but I've heard great things about him.
I too enjoy all of the old great rocket designs from the 60s and 70s.
Nobody here wishes Carl or Semroc any ill will. But the fact is that a
person or company cannot make (for sale) unauthorized copies of products
designed/created/owned by others even if those are out of production.
And a company that has created and owns product designs, copyrights,
trademarks, etc. needs to protect its own rights.

Let's say that you were a big fan of the old Bob Hope/Bing Crosby "Road
To..." movies from the 40s and 50s... and let's say that Paramount
stopped making them available. Would it be OK for you to start selling
copies of those... even though that was an honor to the originals?
What would happen if you started making and selling almost exact copies
of the 1953 Chevy Bel Air?

Previous leadership of Estes didn't care much about the history of the
company... or some have said even about the rocket business in general.
That has definitely changed. We respect the origins of the company and
intend to honor that with re-releases. It's a big, important part of
our plans. Many of you recently submitted some great ideas for old
favorites from Estes and Centuri that you would like to see come back.
[Thanks to Blackshire for helping collect these for me.] I can't tell
you how excited I am to bring some of those back.

Was there a better way to handle this? Maybe. I might not always
agree with the way lawyers approach things. Sometimes they do things in
a certain way to protect a position because they don't know how the
other party will react. But I can assure you that nobody at Hobbico or
Estes wants to hurt Carl or Semroc.

I've read all sorts of things posted here with speculation that goes way
beyond our company's concerns. We're not out to stop Carl from selling
rocket parts. We're not claiming the exclusive rights to produce a
scale rocket like the Saturn V (only our own, specific interpretation of
that).

We don't like legal fees more than anyone else. I'd hope that no
lawyers need to be involved in this any further. I can assure you that
we'll do everything we can to avoid this being difficult or expensive or
painful for anyone. I'm sure there is a way that this can be resolved.

Sincerely,

Rick Piester
Vice President of Proprietary Products
Hobbico, Inc.
NAR #20413 (lapsed! I promise to renew it soon!)

[Jerry Irvine]

What amazes me is the sheer number of people actually anxious to throw the baby under the bus and proceed to eat their remaining children.

Here you have a company so inspiring you devote a significant portion of your life to thinking about it and buying their products, sometimes at insane collector prices, yet when they write one letter to protect the very intellectual property you covet, your heads all collectively explode.

Duh.

Jerry

[Rocketflyer]

Count me in.


Yep, count me in as well! Estes just pi$$ed me off. Quest motors anyway.

Carl, how much do you think it would cost to get your engine making machine up and running?

[Royatl]

Hate to say it, but someone in Penrose (not Hobbico) has raised the concern.

Cross Post (http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpost.php?p=123185&postcount=49)


Hello? Rick Piester (Lee's son) is the VP for Proprietary Products at Hobbico. He's probably the person that instigated the purchase of Estes. I think there are people at Hobbico that already know about Semroc.



{edit} Geez, just as I'm writing this, Rick writes a message! Am I good, or what?

[Rocketflyer]

This is sad news bit it's not just about Semroc, it's a shot across the bow to all of those involved with cottage industry rocketry. IMO, they simply mean to drive off one of the better known providers so as to intimidate all the other cottage industry companies into folding or at least hiding in the corners. Every cottage company mentioned in this thread is in now the cross hairs.

If I were Carl I'd be thinking back to who I talked to last week and about what. Even though Semroc has a website and is openly available to all, it sounds to me like they were on a "fishing trip" and something that was said may have triggered the contact. I hear the old song by the O'Jay's "Back Stabbers" playing in the background. I for one would love to know the names of those Carl talked with.

I agree that talking directly with them is the best idea but if that fails, I would be willing to make a donation to a legal fund to help Carl fight Estes if it comes to that. Hopefully others would too. They are counting on Semroc and all others being too small to fight back. ATF thought NAR/TRA couldn't fight back as well.

I also hope Carl will share whatever happens here and on all the forums and name, names. How Estes deals with this will be very intersting to all of us.

I'm sure NASA, Von Braun and Wan Hu, will be getting similar letters from Hobbico by the end of the week.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com


Yes, I'd contribute as well. I had thought about it, but glad someone elsr voiced it. I had thought I would have been tacky. Thanks, Randy. :)

[stefanj]

I'm glad Rick posted things from Estes' perspective, and mentioned right off that parts sales aren't effected, but I still think that this is a bit of a raw deal.

I hope something can be worked out. Like a $1 a year license for old designs that Estes isn't actually producing.

[Shreadvector]

I'm new to posting to this forum but I've been reading for a while.
Here's some quick background for those of you who don't know me. I
literally was born in and grew up in the model rocket business. My
father started Centuri Engineering in my grandmother's garage just
before I was born. I spent many summers and weekends in various
Centuri plant buildings - probably causing trouble... but I learned a
lot from it! I have flown rockets all of my life, helped establish and
run an NAR section, used to compete at NARAM and other events and more
recently have flown rockets with my kids. After my father sold and
left Centuri in the mid 70s, I've been involved in selling rockets as a
retailer, distributor and/or manufacturer continuously for the last 35
years. I've possibly done rockets for a larger percentage of my life
than anyone, except maybe Bill Stine. [I'm told that as a baby I
teethed on balsa nose cones.]

I work for Hobbico who you know recently acquired Estes. My
responsibilities involve creating and promoting our company's private
label products. It's a real thrill for me to be involved with Estes and
all of the good old Centuri products as well. We all know about the
previous (nightmare) era that Estes has been through. Our company is
excited about the changes that have begun for Estes and plan a bright
future and helping to grow the model rocket hobby. We have the
resources to give Estes the support it needs to become great again.
And we are 100%, first and foremost, a hobby company. We're not going
to turn Estes into a toy company and ignore what made it great. And
we're not a faceless corporate giant. 100% of our company is owned by
the 750-or-so employees who work here. That includes the staff in
Penrose at Estes.

I don't think I've ever met Carl but I've heard great things about him.
I too enjoy all of the old great rocket designs from the 60s and 70s.
Nobody here wishes Carl or Semroc any ill will. But the fact is that a
person or company cannot make (for sale) unauthorized copies of products
designed/created/owned by others even if those are out of production.
And a company that has created and owns product designs, copyrights,
trademarks, etc. needs to protect its own rights.

Let's say that you were a big fan of the old Bob Hope/Bing Crosby "Road
To..." movies from the 40s and 50s... and let's say that Paramount
stopped making them available. Would it be OK for you to start selling
copies of those... even though that was an honor to the originals?
What would happen if you started making and selling almost exact copies
of the 1953 Chevy Bel Air?

Previous leadership of Estes didn't care much about the history of the
company... or some have said even about the rocket business in general.
That has definitely changed. We respect the origins of the company and
intend to honor that with re-releases. It's a big, important part of
our plans. Many of you recently submitted some great ideas for old
favorites from Estes and Centuri that you would like to see come back.
[Thanks to Blackshire for helping collect these for me.] I can't tell
you how excited I am to bring some of those back.

Was there a better way to handle this? Maybe. I might not always
agree with the way lawyers approach things. Sometimes they do things in
a certain way to protect a position because they don't know how the
other party will react. But I can assure you that nobody at Hobbico or
Estes wants to hurt Carl or Semroc.

I've read all sorts of things posted here with speculation that goes way
beyond our company's concerns. We're not out to stop Carl from selling
rocket parts. We're not claiming the exclusive rights to produce a
scale rocket like the Saturn V (only our own, specific interpretation of
that).

We don't like legal fees more than anyone else. I'd hope that no
lawyers need to be involved in this any further. I can assure you that
we'll do everything we can to avoid this being difficult or expensive or
painful for anyone. I'm sure there is a way that this can be resolved.

Sincerely,

Rick Piester
Vice President of Proprietary Products
Hobbico, Inc.
NAR #20413 (lapsed! I promise to renew it soon!)

That's exactly what I thought.

Thanks for posting the explanation. I was about to post something with an almost identical automobile anaology (but I was going to use the 1969 Bel Air since I had one with the 327 V-8 until 1983).
How can I possbily have a lower NAR number than you? :confused:

When you renew, be sure to list a referring NAR member on your application so they get a $5 reward (program extended through the end of the year). My NAR number is 20117. But I suggest using Carl McLawhorn NAR#4717 for the referral. (OK, the $5 reward may only apply to "new" members and not renewal of lapsed members, but it's the thought that counts).

[UMRS]

Rick

I do understand your companies position, and I respect that you want to protect your property. Ive been in this business for going on 10 years. Very little of it has been done with lawyers.

Most of my business transactions are done on trust or a verbal agreement/handshake. What has got so many people upset is the way this was handled. You see there's just not Semroc theres a whole slew of cottage industries that rely on Semroc as well. We rely on each other so when you hurt Semroc your hurting us all.

So if any damage is done to Semroc these other cottage industries would be hurt as well. Ive operated in this business for years without the help or assistance of any large distributors. The feeling I'm getting is people look at this like a grab to destroy all the cottage industries that have sprung up (right or wrong) from Estes lack of support of older kits.

In my own opinion, this looks like a new sheriff in town trying to get all the town folks in line by going after one of the most popular townsfolk.

I wish you well and the best of luck with the "new" Estes. Its disappointing how this was handled. This is primarily a word of mouth/handshake business. When you throw lawyers into the mix it looks like David & Goliath.

My 2 cents YMMV

[Dave Hutch]

I wish you well and the best of luck with the "new" Estes. Its disappointing how this was handled. This is primarily a word of mouth/handshake business. When you throw lawyers into the mix it looks like David & Goliath.

Very true.
Have a conversation.
Let the lawyers come in at the end of the conversation to draw up the paperwork. Other than that, keep them a long, long way away from the conversation.

[Mark II]

What amazes me is the sheer number of people actually anxious to throw the baby under the bus and proceed to eat their remaining children.

Here you have a company so inspiring you devote a significant portion of your life to thinking about it and buying their products, sometimes at insane collector prices, yet when they write one letter to protect the very intellectual property you covet, your heads all collectively explode.

Duh.

JerryThe previous owners kept the company going and kept it profitable for 20 years; I'll give them that. But they also managed to create a great deal of ill will in the process. Although we all recognize that Hobbico had nothing to do with that, and that this is a whole new situation, some of that bad feeling lingers and it will take awhile for it to completely go away. The new management at Estes-Cox needs to understand this, just as they expect their loyal customers to recognize the positives and cut them a little slack. We all acknowledge what Hobbico has done and is intending to do to rejuventate Estes-Cox, but for their part, Hobbico needs to be sensitive to just how far and how deeply the toxicity had spread.

I suppose that I can understand why Hobbico might have wanted to get moving on this particular issue right away; they don't appear to be a company that wastes any time going about things. They obviously have their reasons for doing it. But in light of recent history, this seems like a tone deaf, bone-headed approach to take.

We all sincerely want to have this rapproachment. We all want to rekindle the love, we really do. As they go about moving in, cleaning up the mess and renovating the old house, Hobbico needs to step carefully around the few pieces of baggage that are still left on the floor from the previous owners.

[InFlight]

What amazes me is the sheer number of people actually anxious to throw the baby under the bus and proceed to eat their remaining children.

Here you have a company so inspiring you devote a significant portion of your life to thinking about it and buying their products, sometimes at insane collector prices, yet when they write one letter to protect the very intellectual property you covet, your heads all collectively explode.

Duh.

Jerry
So, now were all a bunch of Jerks now and you're Perfect. :chuckle:

Whatever dude

.

[Jerry Irvine]

So, now were all a bunch of Jerks now and you're Perfect.
:)

The personal note I got from Rick was unexpected and really nice. These folks are bringing back a modern version of the Estes we all remember from our youth.

I wonder if we could possibly focus on that? I see this as well beyond good news.

Semroc will be just fine when they complete their first phone call with the nice folks at Estes.

There are some really nice folks in rocketry. Some turn harsh when they go online. :(

Jerry

[Shreadvector]

The previous owners kept the company going and kept it profitable for 20 years; I'll give them that. But they also managed to create a great deal of ill will in the process. Although we all recognize that Hobbico had nothing to do with that, and that this is a whole new situation, some of that bad feeling lingers and it will take awhile for it to completely go away. The new management at Estes-Cox needs to understand this, just as they expect their loyal customers to recognize the positives and cut them a little slack. We all acknowledge what Hobbico has done and is intending to do to rejuventate Estes-Cox, but for their part, Hobbico needs to be sensitive to just how far and how deeply the toxicity had spread.

I suppose that I can understand why Hobbico might have wanted to get moving on this particular issue right away; they don't appear to be a company that wastes any time going about things. They obviously have their reasons for doing it. But in light of recent history, this seems like a tone deaf, bone-headed approach to take.

We all sincerely want to have this rapproachment. We all want to rekindle the love, we really do. As they go about moving in, cleaning up the mess and renovating the old house, Hobbico needs to step carefully around the few pieces of baggage that are still left on the floor from the previous owners.

You know what happens to unattended baggage!

[Mark II]

:)

The personal note I got from Rick was unexpected and really nice. These folks are bringing back a modern version of the Estes we all remember from our youth.

I wonder if we could possibly focus on that? I see this as well beyond good news.

Semroc will be just fine when they complete their first phone call with the nice folks at Estes.

There are some really nice folks in rocketry. Some turn harsh when they go online. :(

JerryI certainly hope so. We will all gain if this goes as well as you and others are predicting it will.

[EchoVictor]

I'm new to posting to this forum but I've been reading for a while.
Here's some quick background for those of you who don't know me......

.....I can assure you that we'll do everything we can to avoid this being difficult or expensive or painful for anyone. I'm sure there is a way that this can be resolved.

Sincerely,

Rick Piester
Vice President of Proprietary Products
Hobbico, Inc.
NAR #20413 (lapsed! I promise to renew it soon!)

Kudos to you, sir, for coming on here personally while emotions are running high. I think I speak for everyone in saying that having both of you active and strong (Estes and Semroc) makes our hobby that much more enjoyable.

I would hope that in the future you visit here often, and look upon this forum as a great sounding board for "the pulse of the rocket community".

Thanks,
Eric

[Mark II]

You know what happens to unattended baggage!Oh, no, don't bring DHS into this! :eek:

[Leo]

Kudos to you, sir, for coming on here personally while emotions are running high. I think I speak for everyone in saying that having both of you active and strong (Estes and Semroc) makes our hobby that much more enjoyable.

I would hope that in the future you visit here often, and look upon this forum as a great sounding board for "the pulse of the rocket community".

Thanks,
Eric

Eric, I absolutely feel the same way!

[Shreadvector]

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cen004.html

Check out the young man on the right in the lower row of faces.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cen004.html

[Rocketflyer]

What amazes me is the sheer number of people actually anxious to throw the baby under the bus and proceed to eat their remaining children.

Here you have a company so inspiring you devote a significant portion of your life to thinking about it and buying their products, sometimes at insane collector prices, yet when they write one letter to protect the very intellectual property you covet, your heads all collectively explode.

Duh.

Jerry

Jerry, when Estes went to h&ll in a hand basket, and all that time elapsed under Tunick, and Estes was a toy store, what rights did they have? They let things lapse and ddn't bother with it's most loyal customers at the time. What, everyone is supposed to bow down and say good for the "old/new Estes," were back and don't touch? This is BS. Duh.

[Jerry Irvine]

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cen004.html

Check out the young man on the right in the lower row of faces.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cen004.html

So are you going to dig up my picture from a catalog now? Hint. I am holding Gary Crowell's Astrobee D scale model from NARAM Houston.

Jerry

[Dave Hutch]

Jerry, when Estes went to h&ll in a hand basket, and all that time elapsed under Tunick, and Estes was a toy store, what rights did they have? They let things lapse and ddn't bother with it's most loyal customers at the time. What, everyone is supposed to bow down and say good for the "old/new Estes," were back and don't touch? This is BS. Duh.

It may be BS, but it is what it is. Also, a new day has dawned.

Estes did not lose any legal rights when (under previous leadership) they showed no interest in their own older designs. The new owners may now want to excercise their right to produce kits of models that they own. There is nothing unusual about this.

I'm still confident that a good agreement can be worked out that will potentially benefit ALL parties involved, including us grumpy old pharts.

[Jerry Irvine]

Jerry, when Estes went to h&ll in a hand basket, and all that time elapsed under Tunick, and Estes was a toy store, what rights did they have? They let things lapse and ddn't bother with it's most loyal customers at the time. What, everyone is supposed to bow down and say good for the "old/new Estes," were back and don't touch? This is BS. Duh.
Barry Tunik bought the Wal-mart Kool-Aid. He honestly thought it would be a good business model because he was sold by the generally evil folks there. He did manage to make the best of it by leveraging newly exposed WM rocketeers to look for, and find, hobby retail outlets of a non-crippled selection of rockets and motors.

He reported in his YORF interview it made a large difference to HOBBY sales. I do blame Barry for letting the Estes home and its collectibles be lost. But he was also reamed by CPSC over a few things to the tune of well over $1,000,000 in out of pocket expenses to comply with changed, arbitrary, and nonsense rules.

Why can we not have printed parachutes anyway? CPSC. Firefox. CPSC. Rocket cars restricted. CPSC.

That's water under the bridge now. The new folks are really the old folks and the "fans" of the product line. This is really going to be good.

Jerry

[jetlag]

snip: "This is really going to be good.

Jerry"

Unless all the little guys get squished in the process..........
Those very same little guys that kept the 'old' new for us and many, many others. The new Estes ought to be thanking those little guys for keeping the bus on the road while the main driver recovered from his drunken 10 year stupor!
Allen

[Mark II]

Valid points, Jerry.

[Bob Kaplow]

What a devastating blow to Carl and our hobby. Especially after all he's contributed to the NAR membership program. I hope something can be worked out.

Did Carl get permission from "the old" Estes to clone the OOP kits? I know some folks did, and I would have expected the former management to do something like this if Carl didn't. I hope you kept any old correspondence.

But I can understand their side of this as well. Most of the other vendors out there like Flis and Red River produce original designs. Most of Carl's product line are copies of old classics.

I don't see how they could stop someone who totally re-engineered a scale model, like the Apogee Saturn. Likewise, they couldn't have any claim other than the name to a re-engineered upscaled kit like the Sky Hook or other SLS designs.

Carl, given the current good will of the management towards the company founders, and your close personal connection with Vern, you might contact him and see if he can work something out for you. I'll bet there is a way that Estes can get what they need to protect their assets, and you can produce the stuff you've been producing.

Otherwise, you can just sell me a bag of balsa, tubes, and other assorted parts that has no graphics, no photos, no instructions, and nothing but a designation of "Bulk Parts Assortment #43". Maybe I could build something cool out of it that looked like an old Estes kit. And maybe parts assortment #42 as well.

[Bob Kaplow]

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cen004.html

Check out the young man on the right in the lower row of faces.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/73cen004.html

I definitely remember that catalog. It's in my basement somewhere...

[Bob Kaplow]

So are you going to dig up my picture from a catalog now? Hint. I am holding Gary Crowell's Astrobee D scale model from NARAM Houston.

Jerry

Post the link!

[Dave Hutch]

Brainstorming here….

What if Estes entered into an agreement with Semroc along the following lines: Semroc continues to produce clone kits of old Centuri/Estes models, but includes more prominent information that these kits remain the intellectual property of Estes Co. Maybe even a link to the Estes website. Maybe the packaging could more prominently list the ESTES engines that these kits use. More Semroc kits being sold = more Estes engines used.

How about this? Semroc produces the “Classic Line” of Centuri and Estes products. These could be models that may not sell in huge numbers and are not suitable for 95% of “entry level” model rocketeers. Estes could actually provide Semroc with the opportunity to expand by working with them to sell these kits through the Estes distribution channels. Semroc would continue to sell via their own website though, while giving more credit to Estes (see above)

Imagine a guy going to a hobby store and seeing the models he had as a kid. He might just get inspired again, just like many of us did (but most of us “rediscovered” our models via the web.)

This situation could be a win-win. Semroc still produces the cool old kits (in addition to whatever “new” kits they want to come up with) Estes gets the credit for these old designs. Semroc gets a distribution channel to retail. Estes essentially gets a whole new line of their old kits on the market (that normally they could not do, because low volumes for these kits would not make any sense for them)

[foose4string]

This is very timely discussion....but not in a good way! Semroc was on my mind in a big way yesterday morning before Carl brought any of this to light! Carl made a comment in a different thread about the "little" vendors watching Estes with great interest. But in fact, it has been the other way around! Especially in reference to Semroc. Granted, Semroc is doing things to preserve what once was....the things that were GOOD about the hobby. Not new concepts by any means, but SEMROC was doing it's part to carry the torch and keep the HOBBY alive. Is it coincidence that Estes is trying to go back to it's roots? The roots that Semroc was trying their darnedest to preserve? Yes, we spoke and someone finally listened about what changes Estes should make(before the sale of the complany). Maybe, in some small way, we are to blame? Many of us asked for this. I can assure you, I didn't. Semroc already filled the niche, offering many of the classics and the "old school" methods. Asking Estes to bring back fairly simple designs and balsa that we could easily obtain through BMS or Semroc just didn't make sense to me.

With the new direction Estes is heading, it started raising concerns about Semroc's future. Not from a legal standpoint necessarily, but from market share perspective. With all the new(old) product that Estes is offering and the direction they want to take things, it seems they are cutting directly into the sales and aiming for customers that Semroc had worked so hard to (re)cultivate. Prime example is the Saturn V from Semroc that many of us anxiously awaited. When it became evident that Estes was sincere about re-releasing their version, Semroc backed away. That had to be a real pisser for Semroc after probably vesting countless hours trying to develop it. It was a gamble to be sure, but with Estes' future so uncertain, it seemed like worthwhile and rewarding proposition. There are other classics that Carl was directly asked to back away from. Judging from what has recently transpired and discussed here, there will certainly be more.

My concerns for Semroc yesterday got me thinking about what Semroc could do if push came to shove. What could they do to stay afloat in a way that would benefit both companies? First, I thought, what if Semroc assimilated with Estes or some type of merge took place? Then, I remembered how Carl said he never wanted to get that big as a company and vowed to maintain control and ownership of Semroc. So, that option was out. It would also mean an end to Semroc as we know it....probably not a good thing.

The next scenario that went through my mind was what if Estes contracted Semroc to produce some of their kits. A much more plausible and amicable resolve. I'm sure Estes is QUITE familiar with Semroc's excellent quality and have inspected their parts thoroughly. :) Could Semroc keep up with that type of demand and produce on a scale that would satisfy Estes and the entire Hobby industry? Probably not, nor does he want to. But suppose Estes did limited "collector" releases of some of the classics? For arguments sake, let's say 1500 units. Suppose Semroc was contracted to do these releases or played a role in producing parts for them? The limited numbers and collaboration would simply add to the collect-ability of these kits. We already know how many hobbyists like to collect and periodically sell kits. Checked eBay lately?


In reality, I'm sure Semroc will be forced to comply with whatever whim or wish Estes comes along with. I do like the new direction Estes is heading, but frankly, none of the most recent releases have got me jumping up and down with excitement except maybe the Saturn V and the Alien Invader. But, that's just MY opinion. I happen to like plastic cones too...so what do I know?

[foose4string]

Brainstorming here….

What if Estes entered into an agreement with Semroc along the following lines: Semroc continues to produce clone kits of old Centuri/Estes models, but includes more prominent information that these kits remain the intellectual property of Estes Co. Maybe even a link to the Estes website. Maybe the packaging could more prominently list the ESTES engines that these kits use. More Semroc kits being sold = more Estes engines used.

How about this? Semroc produces the “Classic Line” of Centuri and Estes products. These could be models that may not sell in huge numbers and are not suitable for 95% of “entry level” model rocketeers. Estes could actually provide Semroc with the opportunity to expand by working with them to sell these kits through the Estes distribution channels. Semroc would continue to sell via their own website though, while giving more credit to Estes (see above)

Imagine a guy going to a hobby store and seeing the models he had as a kid. He might just get inspired again, just like many of us did (but most of us “rediscovered” our models via the web.)

This situation could be a win-win. Semroc still produces the cool old kits (in addition to whatever “new” kits they want to come up with) Estes gets the credit for these old designs. Semroc gets a distribution channel to retail. Estes essentially gets a whole new line of their old kits on the market (that normally they could not do, because low volumes for these kits would not make any sense for them)


Hutch, you were obviously typing your response the same time I was. We are on the same wavelength!

[rpiester]

Unfortunately Estes isn't really a small just-a-handshake kind of company. I wish life was that simple but it's not today. It took REAL MONEY to acquire the company and with that you have obligations and responsibilities and you can't just allow the assets of the company to be used by another. We have a responsibility to our shareholders (which happens to be all of the employees).

Whatever business you're in, you have to protect what you create and own. If you design some new device that allows cars to get better mileage, you get a patent. If you own a store, you make sure that shoplifters don't take your products and that you lock the doors at night. If you're an artist, you wouldn't be happy if someone started selling prints of your artwork online without your authorization. If I started selling "Uncle Mike's Rocket Shack" branded products, UMRS would rightfully be unhappy. :-)

From what I've heard and read, I believe that Carl makes his products mainly because of his love for the hobby and the products themselves. But he is running a business and so are we.

I think that this doesn't have to hurt the cottage industries that have developed in model rockets. I think that's part of what makes the hobby great and often drives innovation. I do think they will have to be more careful about using the property of other companies. But there are ways to work these things out.

I think time will show you that as part of Hobbico, Estes will have a far different approach than that taken by previous leadership. I'm pretty confident that in time you will appreciate what Hobbico does. For the most part, customers love us. That's why we have grown to the company that we are. So far, the priorities at Estes have been on beefing up the resources. Our employees in Penrose can tell you that a lot of things have been improved already. Much of the improvements won't be visible to the market for a while.

Estes has a unique position of being an industry leader even though in some ways they haven't been leading (or allowed to lead) for a while. But that is changing and I think everyone will benefit. Our biggest challenge isn't competition within the model rocket industry... it's all of the other things that have taken people away from rockets and other hobbies. That's what everyone in the industry needs to work on.

Sorry for my rambling... but I hope these additional comments help.

Rick Piester

[foose4string]

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Rick. Doesn't make me feel any better about the situation, but I understand your point....to a degree. I had visions of the (remaining) Estes employees singing "Ding Dong the Witch is Dead" from the Wizard of Oz after Barry left. ;) I found new respect for Estes after the sale and the obvious changes that were being made under the new regime, but I guess life can't be all sunshine and roses.....especially in business. I suppose I was being a bit naive. I really hope you all can find a way to work this out with Semroc that will be beneficial to all concerned.

[Dave Hutch]

Hutch, you were obviously typing your response the same time I was. We are on the same wavelength!

Simulpost!

Great minds think alike eh?

[jetlag]

Rick,
Thanks for all your comments!
I must say that A LOT of ice cold water has been thrown on the 'feel-good' Estes elicited with your recent releases and expressed interest in all our concerns. I understand your wanting to stop the other guys from making your kits. However, after speaking to several of my lawyer buddies (and, granted, without specifics) and one in particular, I believe you may be fighting a losing battle for a host of reasons. I hope it does not turn into a fight. You folks are bigger than all the little guys put together, and you may be able to stop them. We'll see. I hope Semroc is able to reach a mutually amicable agreement, and we can all go, 'woo, glad THAT's over...lets go grab a beer!'

However, your car analogy does not quite work. Many, many OOP automobiles are cloned or kitted out there that are copies of the originals, albeit with modern improvements and materials. There are at least 3 manufacturers of a Ford GT kit car. In fact, very few automobiles cannot be reproduced this way. I don't know if the '53 Bel Aire is kitted, but few folks would want one of those, anyway.

I hope you can work this out. If not, I don't think the 'good' you attempt will outweigh the bad image you will actually project, something I feel you really don't want to happen.
If Semroc chooses to fight you (Estes), you could lose. Let's not loose sight of that.
I think your chance to put this all to bed years ago has expired, due to Estes' permitting this to go on as long as it has.

You know, there are lots of ways for Estes (you) to win and make everyone glad. A lot of suggestions have been made that are great. I hope you are listening.
We tend to side with the guy(s) that have been listening to and helping us all this time; Estes never would. For a very long time. Now, you want to wipe out (maybe too strong) the folks that kept the interest going in Estes OOP kits the whole time you were 'away.'
Indeed, you should be thanking them for giving you a good reason to buy the company in the first place.

When the big bad bull wakes up from a 10+ year coma and starts smashing all the china in the shop built around him, only a bad outcome can occur.

I was uplifted that Estes was suddenly going to be the Estes of old; now, it seems merely a reprise of the most recent Estes. I feel terrible.
Especially for all those who tried to help you stay in business while you slept.

Allen

[Jerry Irvine]

Here you are getting a post "from the horse's mouth" who not only is a Hobbico executive, but the son of Lee Piester, Centuri Engineering founder, and notably a guy who has had a career in hobby manufacturing and distribution, and you still doubt his motives or that of the company his company just bought?

Step away from the keyboard. Go outside, the graphics are amazing.

Jerry told you so. . . . . .

[jetlag]

Jerry,
Be quiet! YOU go stand outside, perhaps with Rick. Maybe the fresh air....
nevermind.
Why are you even on this forum? I thought you were banned.

Allen

[Dave Hutch]

I feel terrible.
Especially for all those who tried to help you stay in business while you slept.

Allen


Keep in mind that Rick was not the one sleeping. He was on the sidelines with the rest of us,watching the car crash that was the Estes of a few years ago.

I remember seeing some Estes rockets in a hobby store about 8 years ago and thinking "ah, too bad, rocketry has turned into a bunch of plastic crap that's flown once and then stuffed in a garage"

Yes, Semroc and others need to be thanked for keeping a huge part of the hobby alive, and yes, even for making it possible for the hobby of model rocketry to remain active, and for maybe even making the purchase of Estes a good decision for Hobbico.

But... Estes is now going to be changing. For the better. Just because the old ownership did not give a rat's bottom for the old designs does not mean that that intellectual property that Hobbico purchased has reverted to public domain.

I still forsee a win-win situation for everyone involved. This quote from Rick hits the nail on the head, and should make everyone very happy:
Our biggest challenge isn't competition within the model rocket industry... it's all of the other things that have taken people away from rockets and other hobbies. That's what everyone in the industry needs to work on.

He's NOT afraid of competition. He sees a path ahead that includes other companies, selling MORE rockets and EXPANDING the hobby.

I find it amazing that Rick Piester is involved with the new company, and fantastic that he is making the time to view and to post here. (spoken as a 1973 Centuri catalog fanatic!)

[JRThro]

As it happens, I bought a Semroc Cherokee C and a mini Omega on August 3rd and received them on August 10th, even with NARAM-53 interrupting Semroc's operations for over a week.

The Cherokee C was production #21 and the mini Omega was production #25 (or vice versa).

They are great looking kits, and I sure hope that when all is said and done, they'll still be available from Semroc, so many of the rest of you all can buy them too.

I sure hope Estes/Hobbico and Semroc are able to work out something that works for both companies with fairly minor changes to either. It would be a real shame if Semroc became just a parts supplier.

[jetlag]

Dave,
I hope you are right! We all hope so.
No, Rick was not the one sleeping, but he is now the face of Estes. I just hope it is not a reprise of Tunic.

'Our biggest challenge isn't competition within the model rocket industry... it's all of the other things that have taken people away from rockets and other hobbies. That's what everyone in the industry needs to work on. ' R Piester

If so, then why the legal attack on Semroc? I'm sure others will be hearing from Hobbico, as well.
Sorry if I do not share the thinking this is all a good thing. It is not.

Allen

[tbzep]

Regardless of what the handful of Estes employees want with SEMROC, the bulk of the ownership is with hundreds of employees from Hobbico, Great Planes, Tower Hobbies, Omni Models, etc. I imagine they see this as competition, not cooperation. Hopefully, Rick Piester can lead them into a good solution for all involved, but I just can't see how it won't hurt SEMROC enough to put it under.

[jetlag]

Tim, I pray it does not end up killing our good friend at Semroc.

[Dave Hutch]

If so, then why the legal attack on Semroc? I'm sure others will be hearing from Hobbico, as well.
Sorry if I do not share the thinking this is all a good thing. It is not.

Allen

Letters like this from lawyers are commonplace, and are simply a part of doing business. The bigger the business, the less is is able to rely on a "talk and a handshake" to make things work. That's just a fact of life.

Don't think of this as a "legal attack". It is really nothing more that a formal notification that "we need to talk" It's really not that big of a deal.

It does have the potential to be a good thing, as long as all parties don't take formal business dealings personally, and everyone works together to resolve any issues.

[Shreadvector]

How about this potential mutally beneficial scenario, boys and girls?:

After an agreement is worked out, Estes could have a link to SEMROC on their website and a mention in their catalog to direct folks to cool reproductions of out of production kits.

Semroc might have to add several lines of text to packaging and instructions and pay a fee, but they might end up with an insane increase in orders.

You know what they say about a rising tide.

[UMRS]

Rick I respect your opinion. But I must say this at no point in Uncle Mikes Rocket Shack history did I let it linger for over a decade just idoling away as it were. If I did I might not have too much to complain about if someone reproduced my materials that people had been clammering for.

See its more than a its our stuff thing. To me its a it was our stuff but we didnt care who reproduced it. Too me thats two seperate issues.

Copyright law is certainly on your side. I cant dispute that. But I dont think the Moral law is on your side in this case. If Hobbico insisting on their rights that were left dormant for a long time cause a popular company and many of the cottage industries it supports go under. All I can say is that would look bad for Hobbico I would think.

Granted thats hopefully an extreme gloom and doom scenario. Im hoping it doesnt come to that.

Again best wishes

Mike



Unfortunately Estes isn't really a small just-a-handshake kind of company. I wish life was that simple but it's not today. It took REAL MONEY to acquire the company and with that you have obligations and responsibilities and you can't just allow the assets of the company to be used by another. We have a responsibility to our shareholders (which happens to be all of the employees).

Whatever business you're in, you have to protect what you create and own. If you design some new device that allows cars to get better mileage, you get a patent. If you own a store, you make sure that shoplifters don't take your products and that you lock the doors at night. If you're an artist, you wouldn't be happy if someone started selling prints of your artwork online without your authorization. If I started selling "Uncle Mike's Rocket Shack" branded products, UMRS would rightfully be unhappy. :-)

From what I've heard and read, I believe that Carl makes his products mainly because of his love for the hobby and the products themselves. But he is running a business and so are we.

I think that this doesn't have to hurt the cottage industries that have developed in model rockets. I think that's part of what makes the hobby great and often drives innovation. I do think they will have to be more careful about using the property of other companies. But there are ways to work these things out.

I think time will show you that as part of Hobbico, Estes will have a far different approach than that taken by previous leadership. I'm pretty confident that in time you will appreciate what Hobbico does. For the most part, customers love us. That's why we have grown to the company that we are. So far, the priorities at Estes have been on beefing up the resources. Our employees in Penrose can tell you that a lot of things have been improved already. Much of the improvements won't be visible to the market for a while.

Estes has a unique position of being an industry leader even though in some ways they haven't been leading (or allowed to lead) for a while. But that is changing and I think everyone will benefit. Our biggest challenge isn't competition within the model rocket industry... it's all of the other things that have taken people away from rockets and other hobbies. That's what everyone in the industry needs to work on.

Sorry for my rambling... but I hope these additional comments help.

Rick Piester

[Jerry Irvine]

[b]Rick I respect your opinion. But I must say this at no point in Uncle Mikes Rocket Shack history did I let it linger for over a decade just idoling away as it were.
You might not personally approve of the direction Barry Tunik went in mass-merchandising model rocketry vs. increased emphasis on the hobby side, but his efforts were successful.

He was able to make a significant portion of the product line sales be starter outfits, RTF and ARTF rockets which means people who are NOT crafty could play as well. He got the product in stores where the people already were and as a result sold millions more units, albiet at shorter margins, than ever before.

All throughout that time frame folks on this and similar websites bragged about how "cheaply" they could get motors at Wal-Mart and K-Mart vs. local hobby stores. Those cheap vultures, perhaps you, were the CAUSE of mass-merchandising becoming more prevalent not less.

Then when the sheer number of containers of kits and starters (containing motors reimported from China via Penrose) was so massive the employees repurposed from kit making to sea container unloading and repacking to pallets were insufficient, so more had to be hired!

You guys might specialize in whining about Tunik and declare his term the dark years or worse, but quite the opposite, despite the minor nit of increased mass-merchandise focus, he was getting far more rockets to far more people, more widely, and deeply than ever before.

The side effect, the debris from that work, was a massive resurgence in sales through the HOBBY CHANNEL.

At least don't lie about the guy.

Jerry

[jetlag]

Jerry,
Wrong again, as usual.
If what you say is true, then how is it the company was acquired so easily? I guess Tunik's strategy was not so hot after all? And what could you possibly know about any extra hirings? From what I hear, the opposite took place.
Uncle Mike is right on!
Allen

[Solomoriah]

From what I've heard and read, I believe that Carl makes his products mainly because of his love for the hobby and the products themselves. But he is running a business and so are we.
Would it have killed you guys to call Carl direct, no lawyers, and just talk it out?

NOBODY runs a company like Carl. NOBODY has the good will of the real hobby rocketeers like he has. He earned it.

I thought you guys were working to earn it too...

EDIT: Talking to my daughter, it occurred to me. Carl isn't a businessman, not to us anyway. He's our good friend. He doesn't just sell us stuff, he takes care of us, and we take care of him.

You can't slap our friend in the face and not make us fighting mad.

[Rocketflyer]

[snip]

EDIT: [snip] Carl isn't a businessman, not to us anyway. He's our good friend. He doesn't just sell us stuff, he takes care of us, and we take care of him.

You can't slap our friend in the face and not make us fighting mad.

My hat is off to you, sir! Well said.

[Dave Hutch]

Would it have killed you guys to call Carl direct, no lawyers, and just talk it out?.

It's called running a business. An actual large business, not a hobby business out of your garage. The letter from the lawyer is a normal, everyday occurance, and it is simply a formalized way of dropping by and saying "hey buddy, we have a problem with how you've been using our intellectual property, and we'd like to have a chat about it"



You can't slap our friend in the face and not make us fighting mad.

If people fly off the handle and get emotional about things, there is much less chance of coming to a mutually agreeable and profitable solution.

[Carl@Semroc]

On 11/3/2008, we received an email from Mary Roberts notifying us that they had applied with the USPTO for “trademark protection for Nighthawk, Space Plane, and SST-Shuttle. Avoiding the use of those marks should prevent any future difficulties between our companies.” Estes-Cox knew at the time that we had those names in commerce with a common law trademark, but knew we could not afford to protect our rights by protesting. They also knew that we were not selling complete kits of the models, but each of our xKits which were just a “bag of parts.” We sold all the parts individually and anyone could order each item separately or order one item and get the all parts in one bag. The bags did not contain instructions or any copyrighted materials, except a parts list with the contents of the bag. It was possible to build an X-Ray or many other similar designs using the same parts. They did not want us to use the names that they had abandoned as long as 20 years ago and they did not want us to sell the bags of parts. We sold the small amount of existing inventory of these parts kits and waited for them to produce the models. They let the trademark applications run out and did not produce the kits or even extend the applications. They never got back to us and told us that they had decided not to produce the kits. I had a feeling at the time that they just wanted us to stop producing the parts kits; not that they were going to ever produce them anyway.

At NARAM last week, a former Estes employee asked us if we were going to produce the Nighthawk. I told him that as far as I knew, Estes-Cox was still planning on bringing it back into production. He asked Mike Fritz if and when Estes was going to produce the Nighthawk. He told me that the answer was that they no longer had plans to produce it. He asked me if I could provide him with a set of the parts so he could reproduce the Nighthawk, since he would not be able to get it from Estes-Cox. This has been a familiar story over the years. We produce over 250 laser-cut fin sets from a wide range of companies over the past 50 years for models that have been orphaned. If someone asks us for a particular nose cone, body tube, fin set, or even screw eye from 20 or 30 years ago, we try to provide that service. We have over 600 different balsa nose cones, reducers, and couplers and half of those have sold less than five of each. Many have only sold one or two. The biggest sellers have sold less than a hundred. This is clearly not a market that would interest Estes-Cox.

There is a disconnect between all the people at Estes-Cox/Hobbico/DrinkerBiddle&Reath. Mary does not want us to use trademarks that they abandoned decades ago or sell parts to build their old kits. DrinkerBiddle&Reath did not leave any room for anything but capitulation. They said, “in order to resolve this matter amicably, we must have written confirmation of compliance with these demands no later that August 19, 2010. There is not a contact name at Estes-Cox or Hobbico, since they have closed that option completely. Rick says scale models and parts are not covered. DrinkerBiddle&Reath disagrees and says they are. DrinkerBiddle&Reath knows the copyright law, I am sure. They have all the right words like “pictorial, graphic, and sculptural elements” from the Copyright Law. When you dig deeper, that section also means that “Copyright in a work that portrays a useful article [like a model rocket] extends only to the artistic expression of the author of the pictorial, graphic, or sculptural work. It does not extend to the design of the article that is portrayed. For example, a drawing or photograph of an automobile or a dress design may be copyrighted, but that does not give the artist or photographer the exclusive right to make automobiles or dresses of the same design.” Years ago when I researched this, the example given was if I took a photograph of my car and copyrighted it, I could not go after GM for producing models of my car, even though I could register the copyright on the photo of my car and prevent anyone else from making copies of the photograph. If one could come up with a great new design, draw it up, and copyright it and then own exclusive rights to prevent anyone else from using or producing his design, there would be no use for the patent office. In fact, that is almost the definition of a patent, not a copyright. If the photo was accompanied by a unique name and rights were attached to the name as well, then there would be no use for the trademark office. DrinkerBiddle&Reath knows this. They also know I can not do anything about it. If I was on even footing, DrinkerBiddle&Reath would not be pursuing it. If they honestly think that they could convince me that I do not have a right to make a “useful article,” like a model rocket from a photograph in a catalog, I am sure they also would extend it to nose cone shapes, launch pads, etc. It is the same principle. Both are ludicrous notions, but backed up with enough money, some people actually believe it. Estes employees have admitted publically and privately that they have lost much of their intellectual property over the past 20 years; copyrights into public domain, trademarks abandoned, and patents expired. If I had a DrinkerBiddle&Reath, I might be doing the same thing they are, if my parents had raised me a little differently.

[JRThro]

Carl,

Since August 19, 2010 is still a week away, could you speak with someone at Estes who might put you in touch with someone in authority at Hobbico, to try to find out what Hobbico truly wants from Semroc?

I sure hope so.

[RWmarlow]

not sure how to respond on this....The old bromide is "Dance with the one that brung ya"....but I remember back in the late 90's who invited me to the reunion Gig...

RM

[Dave Hutch]

Carl -

My advice (it's worth exactly what you've paid for it) would be to contact Rick Peister directly and ask to have a one-on-one chat. The lawyer letter is really just so much bumf. Insulting bumf, but don't be intimidated by it, or take it personally at all.

Hobbico really should have handled this differently (as they probably now realize). Intimidating an honoured colleague was probably not a fabulous idea.

You should not need to go Lawyer to Lawyer on this; In fact that would be the worst thing to do - the only winners in that scenario are the lawyers.

The questions to resolve are :

What does Hobbico/Estes really want? (apparently not to drive you out of business, according to Rick)

How can you achieve what they want fairly so that both parties are mutually happy?

ETA: Rick Piester, since you are viewing this thread, perhaps you could contact Carl directly yourself, arrange a meeting or call, and settle things amicably.

[Jerry Irvine]

If one could come up with a great new design, draw it up, and copyright it and then own exclusive rights to prevent anyone else from using or producing his design, there would be no use for the patent office. In fact, that is almost the definition of a patent, not a copyright. If the photo was accompanied by a unique name and rights were attached to the name as well, then there would be no use for the trademark office. DrinkerBiddle&Reath knows this. They also know I can not do anything about it. If I was on even footing, DrinkerBiddle&Reath would not be pursuing it. If they honestly think that they could convince me that I do not have a right to make a “useful article,” like a model rocket from a photograph in a catalog, I am sure they also would extend it to nose cone shapes, launch pads, etc. It is the same principle. Both are ludicrous notions, but backed up with enough money, some people actually believe it. Estes employees have admitted publically and privately that they have lost much of their intellectual property over the past 20 years; copyrights into public domain, trademarks abandoned, and patents expired. If I had a DrinkerBiddle&Reath, I might be doing the same thing they are, if my parents had raised me a little differently.
Lawyers do have a duty of care and ethics, as hard as it is to believe based on observations of behavior. You may have a cause of action against the law office itself for unethical action. Notably such an action could be filed in small claims or even municipal court in your own town since the violation action occurred in your jurisdiction. You seem to have researched this and know your rights. Perhaps now is the time to exercise those rights.

Jerry

[Dave Hutch]

Lawyers do have a duty of care and ethics, as hard as it is to believe based on observations of behavior. You may have a cause of action against the law office itself for unethical action. Notably such an action could be filed in small claims or even municipal court in your own town since the violation action occurred in your jurisdiction. You seem to have researched this and know your rights. Perhaps now is the time to exercise those rights.

Jerry


Agree, but only IF you are rebuffed by actual people working for Hobbico who are knowledgeable about the situation and the history of the hobby.

If DrinkerBiddle&Reath actually state that you are not allowed to produce a scale model kit of a rocket or missile, this is not only laughable, but is insulting to all of us, and flys in the face of a direct statement from their client, Rick Piester. Rick may need to remind DrinkerBiddle&Reath who they are working for, and instruct them to back off forthwith.

[Randy]

No reasonable person would expect Estes to freely give up legitimate rights to any - original to Estes property, but to seemingly claim blanket rights to so much of rocketry in general (that is the way it came across to me and evidently many others) is just too much to swallow.

Regardless of what has been posted by all concerned I think most people would have to question the intent - otherwise, why lawyers first? I owned a moderate sized business for 22 years and have worked to put people in business for the last 10 years (more than 100)from mom and pop's, to franchises, with bankers to SBA and it is not the norm for any company I have worked with to lead with lawyers. We never involve lawyers unless we mean to use them. They don't just drop a line to say "hey, how are you?"

Gotta question the timing - and wonder how this would be different if it had come out 2 weeks before NARAM. Imagine the reception for Estes. Might have put a slight crimp in the festivities, interest in, and sale of, the "numbered" Saturn V's and all those great times hob-knobbing with all the old guys."

Still, kudo's to Rick Piester for posting a response to this issue on this forum - but - it is in the best interests of all concerned that someone from Estes did just that.

Worst understatement of the day, "Was there a better way to handle this? Maybe." MAYBE ???

The legal firm works for Estes, all they have to do is call them off - if they will.

The new, old Estes? Everyone is waiting to see just how new.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[John Brohm]

...

There is a disconnect between all the people at Estes-Cox/Hobbico/DrinkerBiddle&Reath.

....

And I think this is the bottom line. As your note summarizes, this is neither new or current. Estes-Cox is no more at risk today than they were two years ago.

I appreciate that there is new ownership, and I'm sure we all are hopeful about the new direction Estes may be heading in. Rick Piester seems to be genuine in his enthusiasm, intent and approach, and we can hope that this has influence at the appropriate places at Hobbico.

As has been said many times now, much of this process is due process associated with a business re-asserting its rights and entitlements. By itself, this shouldn't be an issue - it is business, afterall.

But the underlying issue is the manner in which the whole affair has been handled. There's been plenty of opportunity in the past two years to approach Semroc in a less confrontational way, and there certainly was an abundance of opportunity for the new owners to do so just last week.

Is what Estes-Cox doing wrong? No. But is the way they are doing it the best way? That's where the real rub is.

[Bob Kaplow]

DB&R: No offices in Colorado, office in downtown Chicago, nothing closer to Carl than DC.

Probably the law firm that Hobbico used for their purchase of Estes...

[JSP]

I agree a phone call needs to be made (and should be made from Estes, since they started this PR debacle) I really want to think that the "New Estes" is truly concerned about the long time rocket enthusiast, but I have my doubts. If they are really concerned about us, they will realize that this has spiraled out of control and do major damage control quickly, otherwise the typical long time rocket customer will see no difference between the "New Estes" and the "Just Kicked to the Curb Estes."

[Sunward]

.... We never involve lawyers unless we mean to use them. ......
yep. Very true.

Lawyers cost money. And this is a big law firm. Not cheap.

This was also not a simple "form letter" that went out. There was research done by someone and then the letter was written.

But it is now up to Carl to call. We will see on August 20.

[UMRS]

Thats exactly the way it came across to me and numerous others, I have a brother in law that works for NASA. Im going to call him tommorow and see if they got a letter to..............................telling them they cant build anymore Saturn V's.



No reasonable person would expect Estes to freely give up legitimate rights to any - original to Estes property, but to seemingly claim blanket rights to so much of rocketry in general (that is the way it came across to me and evidently many others) is just too much to swallow.

Regardless of what has been posted by all concerned I think most people would have to question the intent - otherwise, why lawyers first? I owned a moderate sized business for 22 years and have worked to put people in business for the last 10 years (more than 100)from mom and pop's, to franchises, with bankers to SBA and it is not the norm for any company I have worked with to lead with lawyers. We never involve lawyers unless we mean to use them. They don't just drop a line to say "hey, how are you?"

Gotta question the timing - and wonder how this would be different if it had come out 2 weeks before NARAM. Imagine the reception for Estes. Might have put a slight crimp in the festivities, interest in, and sale of, the "numbered" Saturn V's and all those great times hob-knobbing with all the old guys."

Still, kudo's to Rick Piester for posting a response to this issue on this forum - but - it is in the best interests of all concerned that someone from Estes did just that.

Worst understatement of the day, "Was there a better way to handle this? Maybe." MAYBE ???

The legal firm works for Estes, all they have to do is call them off - if they will.

The new, old Estes? Everyone is waiting to see just how new.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Randy]

Thats exactly the way it came across to me and numerous others, I have a brother in law that works for NASA. Im going to call him tommorow and see if they got a letter to..............................telling them they cant build anymore Saturn V's.

Hey, now that's an idea! My dad worked on the Jupiter C and then on Apollo at the Cape and Redstone. As his heir I should be entitled to a cut from Estes, Cox, Centuri, etc. etc. etc. even Dr. Zooch! Hey Wes, you listening?

I'm going to let Carl slide on his stuff though. He's been through enough already.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[LeeR]

(mutter grumble)

This stinks.

As opposed to cursing the darkness, I lit a candle.

I ordered a bunch of kits from Semroc.

They deserve my business.

I encourage others to do likewise.

I was going to post the same plea to everyone -- place a Semroc order! I will put in a decent order tonight.

-- >> Done! Got a Cherokee-C, Mini-Omega, Sky Hook II, Orion, and parts!

[RocketMikeH]

yep. Very true.

Lawyers cost money. And this is a big law firm. Not cheap.

This was also not a simple "form letter" that went out. There was research done by someone and then the letter was written.

But it is now up to Carl to call. We will see on August 20.


Actually this is standard operating procedure for every law firm., "The threat letter", and believe it or not it is somewhat of a form letter. Sounds like some "rocket" language was added to it, but still somewhat of a form letter. And this can actually be done cheap, it's the next step that's expensive which is filling a lawsuit and trying to figure out which jurisdiction to file it in. That's were the research and big money can come into play. The sad part is this cheap letter sends fear. I really feel for you Carl, remember you do have options.


Actually ,I would consider this a compliment in a wierd kinda way. You make dam nice kits and the biggest rocket company in the world took notice.

I wish you the best and my order is placed.

Mike

[Solomoriah]

I agree a phone call needs to be made (and should be made from Estes, since they started this PR debacle)
Hear, hear! The "new" Estes is behaving rather badly here. Rude, at the least. I was planning to purchase some multi-packs of engines, but now I think I'll buy Quest instead. If Carl sold engines, I'd buy them from him.

I'd buy some parts, too, if I wasn't already buried under a pile of top-quality Semroc parts. Heck, I may anyway.

Is what Estes-Cox doing wrong? No. But is the way they are doing it the best way? That's where the real rub is.
I disagree. It is wrong, in the sense that, legalities or not, they are suddenly concerned about something that they ignored for decades... and indirectly, that's not the kits, its US. Perhaps the legal issues are on Estes side (though I suspect their case isn't as strong as the letter makes it sound) but it doesn't matter. Carl is one of US. For far too long, Estes (the company) hasn't been.

It's like, "hey, sorry to be so late to the party... and Carl, you're wearing my shirt, and I want it NOW. Pants, too."

[Mark II]

We will never abandon our friends. Order sent.

Hee-haw, if you catch my drift.

[jetlag]

It sounds to me like all Carl might have to change would be some artwork. Maybe stop including the instructions. A little different looking decal. The Sky Hook might have to become a Sky Hooker. Pay homage to the almighty Estes with a page of the rockets history (which he does already).
Unless Estes actually patented the rocket kit itself (the physical contents of the bag o' parts), they have not a case. Scare tactics. Unfortunately, they work.
However, I think Carl will end up having a happy ending here.

Allen

[Xyzzy]

I suppose this is my first post here, and I am going to ramble a bit, and it has very little to do with the current topic, so please bear with me.

Earlier this year my son, who is 8, wanted to try out model rockets. The only person I knew who was "into" model rockets was a Scoutmaster I knew somewhere out in Wendell. (I was like, Wendell? Where in the world is that?) I decided to contact him and he offered to have me come visit.

I never expected to see what I saw. Carl and his family live for rockets. Their house is incredible inside. I could go on for hours about all the high-tech one-off devices Carl has built. You couldn't believe the amount of balsa they have, or the awesome CNC nosecone machines. Or the laser slot body tube "cutter". Or the engine machine. Or the awesomely cute dogs.

Anyways, he hooked us up with a few kits, gave us a launch controller and launch pad and answered a billion questions. We frequently visit because when we want a rocket, we want it now, and Semroc's lightening delivery isn't fast enough for us.

Every rocket my son and I have built has been from Semroc. In a matter of a few months we have built countless rockets. I have a flight box with over 150 ESTES engines. I think ESTES has made out pretty good on this deal!

Without the rocket business, which I sometimes suspect to be a not-for-profit enterprise, they are doomed to financial failure.

I like to think of Carl as one of my best friends. He has helped me through some pretty rough times that I cannot go into here, and has provide my son and I a safe and exciting hobby. I even bought both of us NAR memberships at his prompting.

I can call him any time, 24 hours a day, and he is there to help. I can just drop by and visit any time and he will drop whatever he is doing (which is always ultra-cool) and chat with me. If my father was 1/10 the man Carl is I would be honored.

I think in my lifetime I have met one or two other people of the caliber Carl is. I someday hope, when I grow up, I can be like him. He is the epitome of class.

When he had his heart attack I had the opportunity to visit him within a very short time. Things looked pretty grim to me and all he could talk about was getting the web site online and rockets!

Anyways, I'm sure the lawyers don't care about any of this, but I can promise you that if Semroc goes under, I will never purchase another ESTES engine ever again. A meaningless gesture given that I am a nobody, but it is all I can do.

BTW, my son and I have purchased a pile of rockets from Semroc, but in the meantime, Carl keeps giving us free rockets. I tried originally to stop him but he is very persuasive. I have no idea how he can sell a rocket, provide free shipping, give me free rockets and advice and stay in business. One time I messed up an engine mount being glued into a body tube and it seized before I got it to the right position. Carl gave me replacement parts without blinking. I don't even remember asking.

You could say we are addicted to Carl, Sheryl, Bruce, the dogs and Semroc:

SA-23188 7/28/2010 $16.66 Shipped
SA-22649 6/21/2010 $13.80 Shipped
SA-22576 6/10/2010 $44.30 Shipped
SA-22387 5/28/2010 $18.78 Shipped
SA-22382 5/21/2010 $55.80 Shipped
SA-22336 5/17/2010 $81.86 Shipped
SA-22282 5/11/2010 $19.74 Shipped
SA-22230 5/07/2010 $39.00 Shipped
SA-22169 5/02/2010 $47.08 Shipped
SA-22050 4/21/2010 $62.60 Shipped
SA-21232 2/08/2010 $72.76 Shipped

Remember, we are just newbies! I expect, over time, to buy a whole pile more!

--
Mike
NAR 91110

Joey
NAR 91109

[barone]

I've read thru all 119 posts. Remember, the classic kits that are coming out were put in motion by the previous owner. It doesn't reflect upon the direction of the current owner other than they went ahead and made distribution.

It's been a stated and practiced policy of Carl's (Semroc) not to kit an OOP kit when there is even a rumor that Estes planned on producing it. Case in point, the Saturn V, which happened to actually get produced. So why the strong arm tactics? Certainly they can't expect a company that has a policy of not producing a kit rumored to be produced to compete against a kit they think they want to produce?

Competition based on hobbiest's ability to clone classic kits Estes is planning on producing? I've bought some Estes Classic kits that were probably cheaper to buy the parts for than the kit. Most people WILL buy the kit over building a clone.

Looking thru the latest Estes catalog, the part selection is rather short and pricey. Nose cone assortments with no description of what you are getting other than that they fit a certain BT. Body tubes that seem overpriced. And here's a real great bit of advise from the Estes catalog, page 45...."use tube couplers to connect tubes of the same size." Tube couplers aren't even in their catalog. How about page 4, parts of a model rocket. Nose block - not in catalog. Transition - not in catalog. Centering rings - only if you buy the motor (engine) mount kits. Payload section - not in catalog. Yeah, Semroc is going to take a lot of business away from Estes part sales. Heck, I can't get a replacement Apollo LES?

I don't know where this is going. I hope that Hobbico's intent is only to claim ownership of certain designs. I hope Hobbico also realizes that there is more to this hobby than making and selling kits. I hope Hobbico realizes that model rocketeers enjoy the ability to upscale, downscale and modify exisitng and classic Estes and Centuri designs. I hope Hobbico realizes that if they create the atmosphere that results in the loss of a company that gives model rocketeers the ability to achieve creativity, they also destroy what they have professed to want to achieve...."Our biggest challenge isn't competition within the model rocket industry... it's all of the other things that have taken people away from rockets and other hobbies. That's what everyone in the industry needs to work on."

[gpoehlein]

I posted this on TRF, but I want to post it here as well:

Carl;

I cannot believe that the law firm has complete autonomy to do what they want about this - if Estes/Hobbico wants to reign them in, they should be able to. If you can work out an amicable settlement or arrangement with Estes, they should then be able to tell the law firm to back off. Please try to work this out with Estes - it's too important to trust to lawyers alone.

Greg

[Jerry Irvine]

I can't get a replacement Apollo LES?
I have built and flown several dozen Saturn V's. I suggest you have a towerless nose cone for flight and a nice one for photos. Change it just before countdown.

Jerry

[foose4string]

I have built and flown several dozen Saturn V's. I suggest you have a towerless nose cone for flight and a nice one for photos. Change it just before countdown.

Jerry

Yeah, but the flight pics look much cooler and scale-like during flight with the tower on! Is it practical? No. But then, this a hobby...it's not meant to be. ;)

[Ltvscout]

However, I think Carl will end up having a happy ending here.

I don't think Sheryl would appreciate Carl going to an asian massage parlor!

:chuckle:

[Ltvscout]

Or the engine machine.
Shhhhh! Don't let the cat out of the bag!
;)

[Randy]

Carl,

Please post full details here on YORF about what happens and how you are treated.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[AKPilot]

Didn't Estes do this same thing with Red River Rocketry a couple years ago with their Quark (sp) model?

Sent them a letter telling him to cease, even though they rockets were completely opposite of each other in length (Estes small, RR tall), and the name was spelled completely different?

Did John have to get rid of HIS kits quickly in order to comply?

[mperdue]

It sounds to me like all Carl might have to change would be some artwork. Maybe stop including the instructions. A little different looking decal. The Sky Hook might have to become a Sky Hooker. Pay homage to the almighty Estes with a page of the rockets history (which he does already).
Unless Estes actually patented the rocket kit itself (the physical contents of the bag o' parts), they have not a case. Scare tactics. Unfortunately, they work.
However, I think Carl will end up having a happy ending here.

Allen
Carl doesn't use the Estes artwork or instructions. His are actually much better.

[brianc]

There is a disconnect between all the people at Estes-Cox/Hobbico/DrinkerBiddle&Reath.
...
They said, “in order to resolve this matter amicably, we must have written confirmation of compliance with these demands no later that August 19, 2010.
Wouldn't it be great if your response to DB&R included a letter from Estes granting you
appropriate permissions? Your option to deal with Estes/HobbiCo directly is not 'closed
completely' as you posted. Time is of the essence!

[GregGleason]

To Rick P.:

Thank you for posting your side of the story. I remember seeing your picture in the Centuri catalog, mentioned afore by Fred, so I am glad that you are back in the hobby business. Also, I am a FB fan of Estes so I wish you and Estes much success.

I believe that it is the hope of many that things are resolved soon and satisfactorily for both parties. As you can see from the many posts, Carl is seen by many as a "Rocket Guy in Your Neighborhood" of sorts, and as such has a loyal following. Estes can turn this into a "win/win" so that those who make the "buy decisions" feel good about purchasing from either Estes or Semroc.

I believe that you and Carl are both men of character and will work to resolve this in an amicable way. I am convinced that all want the best for their respective companies and I hope the hobby (rocketry) gains from this experience.

Greg

[Solomoriah]

More importantly, Rick... this is a fiasco for Estes. Even if you were entirely in the right, and I don't believe you are, you can't treat someone like Carl this way without ruining any good will you have earned among the true believers. We'll remember how you handle this (and I mean you in the collective sense, not just you personally) and it will influence our purchases and our recommendations to others for years to come if this goes badly for Semroc.

Carl, we're with you all the way.

[Matt38]

Hello all,

I just cancelled my Saturn V order and will not use an Estes product again. Someone hired the parasitical lawyers in the first place and that person can call them off.

If, after a gentlemanly discussion, differences cannot be remedied, then consider legal action. I wonder how many hours those folks billed just to draft and deliver that letter? An email would have been sufficient documentation this early on to see if they could come to an agreement.

This is a small community with real people and this corporate strong arm b***s*** is not going to do the "new" Estes any favors with members of the community.

[jeffyjeep]

I have built and flown several dozen Saturn V's. I suggest you have a towerless nose cone for flight and a nice one for photos. Change it just before countdown.

Jerry
I'm glad I'm not the ONLY one that does that.

[Jerry Irvine]

To Rick P.:

I am glad that you are back in the hobby business. Back? He has always been "in".

This issue is not limited to truly insignificant rocket companies.

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/08/12/oracle-files-lawsuit-against-googles-use-of-java-in-android/

Everybody get a life, make phone calls, and realize attorneys represent people, not replace them. Talk to the real person to bypass the bloodsucking attorney, then, just for fun, sue the bloodsucking attorney, who handed you a cause of action.

It's what they understand. Give them what they understand. In droves.

Merely Jerry

[LeeR]

I have built and flown several dozen Saturn V's. I suggest you have a towerless nose cone for flight and a nice one for photos. Change it just before countdown.

Jerry

Nah, doesn't look right. Get a molded capsule with tower from Sirius Rocketry.

[Earl]

I had a tentaive order 'stored' on Semroc's website for parts for several weeks now and decided earlier today that NOW was the time to place it. Original order (for said parts) was for about $25 or so.

By the time I submitted the 'final' order, the total was over $150.

First let me say, this is not a 'show-off brag' post. It is a 'CHALLENGE' post. I know others have talked about supporting Semroc by doing this very same thing (and some have no doubt already placed an order today), and I think it is a GREAT idea.

So.....whatever you can do tonight, tomorrow, over the weekend (whenever, but do it soon), place an order with Carl & Company and as we say in church (for those so inclined) when it comes to giving to a new building campaign, missionary trip, etc. "give till it hurts a little...or a lot". I know times are economically challenging for many folks, but lets show Carl 'the love' AND......lets show those Estes/Hobbico types who are monitoring this thread (and surely Rick -- with all due respect....Hey, loved what your dad Lee did with Centuri, so no personal disrespect at this point -- will be reading these posts) what kind of dollars we are talking about when we say "Never again Estes" if this goes down badly for Carl.

Challenge cast. Takers??

Earl

[Matt38]

Since I cancelled my Saturn V, I decided to order a Saturn 1B from Carl. Knowing how they operate, it is probably on its way...

[Earl]

Since I cancelled my Saturn V, I decided to order a Saturn 1B from Carl. Knowing how they operate, it is probably on its way...

That's what I'm talking about!!! Keep 'em comin'!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bill]

This news is quite disturbing especially in light of the optimism many of us came away with from NARAM about Estes, Semroc and the future of the hobby in general.

One highlight was the mixer on Tuesday night at a table with Mary Roberts. She was genuinely interested in us and wanted to know about our interests (besides rocketry, of course.) I had spoken to her on the phone before and was pleased to see she is as great in person. By the way, Carl and Sheryl were at the same table.

More importantly to me was the time spent bonding with Carl, Sheryl and Bruce. I not only admire and respect what they are doing, but I find I truly like them.

I can only hope that an equitable agreement can be reached which will allow Semroc to serve the hobby in ways Estes cannot or will not.

If not, I might just have to go buy that train set...


Bill

[harsas]

I have been heartsick about this since I first read Carl's post yesterday. I am not a frequent poster here, but I wanted to let Rick Piester know something. I am not terribly interested in your "business ethics", but I am interested in Semroc. These people are a part of our community, and I view an attack on them as an attack on us all.

I have been heavily involved in this hobby for 40 plus years. I run a local NAR section and a Tripoli Prefecture. If Semroc comes out of this thing diminished or destroyed, I want you to know I will never again buy anything from Estes again. I just will not.

Harold Sasloe

[Jerry Irvine]

One highlight was the mixer on Tuesday night at a table with Mary Roberts. She was genuinely interested in us and wanted to know about our interests (besides rocketry, of course.) I had spoken to her on the phone before and was pleased to see she is as great in person. By the way, Carl and Sheryl were at the same table.

Mary rocks. As I have told her privately she scares me. She hunts, and she dresses what she kills. I try to keep my distance.

Everybody on planet model rocketry loves Semroc. Everybody.

Jerry

[dwmzmm]

I have built and flown several dozen Saturn V's. I suggest you have a towerless nose cone for flight and a nice one for photos. Change it just before countdown.

Jerry

I never fly a scale model without the LES (Mercury Redstone/Saturn 1-B/Saturn - V); doesn't look good in flight.

[Jerry Irvine]

I never fly a scale model without the LES (Mercury Redstone/Saturn 1-B/Saturn - V); doesn't look good in flight.
Okay, if the plastic moldings are in short supply, how about castings from intensely committed 3rd parties. They would be trivial to make. Expendable to the extent of one per flight.

Another option is to adjust the recovery sling to make the base land first rather than sideways or nose first. The side sling in the instructions tends to leverage the LES impact despite efforts. Have the parachute mount string come out of only the "Command Module and LES"/"tube joint".

Jerry

[dwmzmm]

Okay, if the plastic moldings are in short supply, how about castings from intensely committed 3rd parties. They would be trivial to make. Expendable to the extent of one per flight.

Another option is to adjust the recovery sling to make the base land first rather than sideways or nose first. The side sling in the instructions tends to leverage the LES impact despite efforts.

Jerry


I've always used the side sling set up (except for the original Estes K-36 Saturn - V, which the 12" parachute was attached to the base/screw eye of the plastic Apollo Capsule/LES assembly) and always had excellent recovery results (this includes the Centuri 1/45 scale Apollo Little Joe - II also). The only two times the LES got smacked was when one K-36 kit lawn darted (engine mount ejected instead of the recovery system - that was back in 1971, and last year, when the recovery harness separated from my extensively modified K-36 five engine clustered Saturn - V). My 1/45 Centuri Little Joe has survived numerous flights since 1971 as well (and is still on "active" flight status today....) :D

[Zeus-cat]

I want to say that Estes/Hobbico has every right to protect their intellectual property, but what has happened sure seems heavy handed to me. I have been a Semroc customer in the past and I sure hope I can be one in the future. I stayed up well past midnight posting the below comments on TRF yesterday (login problems prevented me from posting here at the time) and I will be late for work posting this today, but this is important to me.

The model rocketry business is not only big enough for Estes and all these little guys, but I don't think I would still be flying if it were not for Semroc and some of the other vendors. I log all my flights in a spreadsheet so I compiled some statistics based on my flights since Jan 1, 2009.

Rocket made by flights
11 clone (OOP Estes)
10 Estes
6 Fliskits
16 Launch Pad
33 Scratch build
3 Semroc
79 Total

Motors used
78 Estes A-E
3 Aerotech
81 Total (several cluster flights which is why motors used exceeds launches)

Only 13% of my flights have used rockets produced by Estes, but 96% of the flights were made on Estes motors.

It is the wide varity of kits and hardware from various vendors that has kept me interested in flying rockets. On 28 of those flights with Estes motors I launched a Perfectflite altimeter. Most of my rockets now use Nomex chute protectors from Sirius Rocketry. Even the Estes kit I just finished was modified with a Kevlar shock cord from Semroc.

I just finished a scratch build rocket that will use Estes motors. At the same time I finished an Estes Sidewinder kit that I modified to a 24mm mount. Again, it will fly mainly on Estes motors. I am building a Fliskits Alien8 that will fly on Estes motors. I am also building a scratch build rocket that will fly only on Aerotech RMS motors. I ALWAYS launch at least one Estes powered rocket to test the wind before I launch an RMS powered rocket. So even flying another vendors motor gets me to fly at least one if not 5 or 6 or more Estes motors!

If I had to solely rely on Estes for my rocketry needs the number of my launches would have been a lot lower. The bean counters and the lawyers representing Estes need to realize that many of us use the vendors to enhance our rocketry experience and not to replace Estes. Take a good look at the numbers above and you will see that getting rid of Semroc and other vendors will not increase the amount of Estes products I buy, it will decrease it.

[EchoVictor]

Everybody on planet model rocketry loves Semroc. Everybody.

Jerry

Perfectly said, sir! Perfectly! :D

Later,
EV

[lmerdan]

This is taken from a ppt on the web:

Investigative Negotiation
Based on the article by
Deepak Malhotra and Max.H.Bazerman
Harvard Business Review, September 2007

Key idea
The best way to get what we are after in a negotiation is to approach the situation the way a detective approaches a crime scene

Principle 1
Don’t just discuss what your counterparts want
Find out why they want it.

Principle 2
Seek to understand and mitigate the other side’s constraints.
Don’t view the other side’s constraints as ”their” problem.
The two sides can help mitigate each other’s constraints.

Principle 3
Interpret demands as opportunities.
Do not adopt a defensive mindset
– What can we learn from the other side’s insistence on this issue?
– What does the demand indicate about the other party’s needs and interests?
– How can the information be used to create and capture value?

Principle 4
Create common ground with adversaries.
– It is possible to cooperate and compete with others simultaneously.

Principle 5
Continue to investigate even after the deal appears to be lost.
Sometimes the deal can be revived.
In other cases, important information that will help in future negotiations can be acquired.
More info can be acquired about the customer’s future needs, the interests and concerns of similar customers or the strategies of other players in the industry.

Conclusion
Effective negotiation requires a strong focus on the other side’s interests, priorities and constraints.
Constructing a value maximising deal often hinges not on the ability to persuade but on the ability to listen.
Ultimately, negotiation is an information game.
Those who can obtain more information perform better than those who stick with what they know.

[hcmbanjo]

I had a tentaive order 'stored' on Semroc's website for parts for several weeks now and decided earlier today that NOW was the time to place it. Earl

I was like you, had an order stored. After reading Carl's post I placed the order.

Vashon and Centuri got me started in rocketry in 1969.
Semroc got me back into the hobby seven years ago.

[Rocketcrab]

Would it have killed you guys to call Carl direct, no lawyers, and just talk it out?

NOBODY runs a company like Carl. NOBODY has the good will of the real hobby rocketeers like he has. He earned it.

I thought you guys were working to earn it too...

EDIT: Talking to my daughter, it occurred to me. Carl isn't a businessman, not to us anyway. He's our good friend. He doesn't just sell us stuff, he takes care of us, and we take care of him.

You can't slap our friend in the face and not make us fighting mad.

I couldn't have said it better!

[Blushingmule]

I had a tentaive order 'stored' on Semroc's website for parts for several weeks now and decided earlier today that NOW was the time to place it. Original order (for said parts) was for about $25 or so.

By the time I submitted the 'final' order, the total was over $150.

First let me say, this is not a 'show-off brag' post. It is a 'CHALLENGE' post. I know others have talked about supporting Semroc by doing this very same thing (and some have no doubt already placed an order today), and I think it is a GREAT idea.

So.....whatever you can do tonight, tomorrow, over the weekend (whenever, but do it soon), place an order with Carl & Company and as we say in church (for those so inclined) when it comes to giving to a new building campaign, missionary trip, etc. "give till it hurts a little...or a lot". I know times are economically challenging for many folks, but lets show Carl 'the love' AND......lets show those Estes/Hobbico types who are monitoring this thread (and surely Rick -- with all due respect....Hey, loved what your dad Lee did with Centuri, so no personal disrespect at this point -- will be reading these posts) what kind of dollars we are talking about when we say "Never again Estes" if this goes down badly for Carl.

Challenge cast. Takers??

Earl

Here's mine,

Ordered 8/12 and on the way.

1 KA-11 Ruskie Model Rocket Kit - $22.00
$22.00
1 KA-12 Saki Model Rocket Kit - $22.00
$22.00
1 KA-15 Geehod Model Rocket Kit - $22.00
$22.00
2 KA-20 Mini Hustler Model Rocket Kit - $21.50
$43.00
1 KA-27 Sky Hook II Model Rocket Kit - $14.50
$14.50
1 KA-29 Mini Omega Model Rocket Kit - $24.50
$24.50
2 KA-30 Cherokee-C Model Rocket Kit - $16.50
$33.00
1 KA-9 SLS Brighton Model Rocket Kit - $75.00
$75.00
1 KLV-33 SLS Laser-X Model Rocket Kit - $53.50
$53.50
1 KN-2 Tau Zero Model Rocket Kit - $18.50
$18.50
1 KV-11 SLS Hustler Model Rocket Kit - $65.00
$65.00
1 KV-28 Goliath Model Rocket Kit - $25.00
$25.00
1 KV-33 Laser-X Model Rocket Kit - $19.50
$19.50
1 KV-41 Orion Model Rocket Kit - $42.50
$42.50
1 KV-57 SLS Lil' Hustler Model Rocket Kit - $45.00
$45.00
1 KV-6 SLS Aero-Dart Model Rocket Kit - $47.00
$47.00
3 KV-9 Sky Hook Model Rocket Kit - $9.00
$27.00
1 Thunderbee Free

Bob

[STRMan]

We had a friend visit yesterday with her kids. It was dead calm out. The 15 y/o girl is into science, and when she saw my rocket room, she went nuts. My backyard is very long in one direction, but minimal distance from the back of my house to the line of RET's. I would never risk a fully built and painstakingly finished kit on a backyard launch.

I let her pick 4 almost RTF kits. We took out a Sky Writer, Chrome Dome, and Metalizer and rigged them with Estes A8-3's. We then took the Astrobeam and rigged it with a B6-2. I used my Estes launch pad.

She, and my son (who is 17 and autistic) took 2 turns each with the countdown and ignition. All 4 rockets landed within 30 feet of the launch pad.

Other than my launch controller, my entire evenings fun was done completely using Estes products. Did it have to be?

No. I could have just as easily launched my Quest EZ Payloader and my Custom rockets Razor on Quest A6-4's.

It turns out that was my last pack of A8-3's. I would typically run out and buy at least 2 packs of A8-3's today, as I like to have some of every type of engine on hand. I think I will hold off. Depending on the outcome from this debacle, I may be switching to an entire Quest and Aerotech engine inventory. I usually keep an inventory of around 140-150 engines on hand. Presently, all but 3 of these are Estes engines.

I just placed an order from Semroc for a Defender, even though I still have to build my Semroc 1B, Space plane, and Hydra-7. I like cluster models. I hope it flies well on three A6-4's, if need be.

[Matt38]

I cancelelled my Estes Saturn V last night and ordered a Saturn 1B from Semroc and it is already on it's way! This is how you do business and win loyal customers.

[Jerry Irvine]

No. I could have just as easily launched my Quest EZ Payloader and my Custom rockets Razor on Quest A6-4's.

It turns out that was my last pack of A8-3's. I would typically run out and buy at least 2 packs of A8-3's today, as I like to have some of every type of engine on hand.
Quest has a 40% off sale for the next three days. Pull the trigger, no matter what happens with some letter Semroc got.

Jerry

[Randy]

It is somewhat ironic that our monthly website update back on August 1st on Fire & Smoke covered much of what has been discussed and pointed out here about doing good business. Apogee has been outstanding too. I also did a tongue in cheek article on the Estes release of the new Saturn V kit and ended it with an illustration of grandparents paying forward. If a picture says a thousand words then the photo with Verna and 9 Saturn V's, most for kids in the womb at this moment, should be the equivilent to War & Peace.

It would only take 3-4 minutes to read the entire update but I think the articles speak very well to this situation, how to improve it and why many old time rocketeers feel and participate as we do.

I hope someone at Estes will take a couple of minutes to read and consider what's said. http://vernarockets.com/id6.html

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Solomoriah]

How come I can never connect to your website? Every other site works fine, but not www.vernarockets.com.

EDIT: Ah, so. Your hosting provider is blocking my internet service provider, apparently. I can connect indirectly through a school server, which is on the state's contract network, but not from my own office.

I'd love to see your site...

[falingtrea]

Well, here is a link to a similar situation just to show it is not unusual.

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=300

[ghrocketman]

I placed an order with Semroc yesterday and think I will place another one today to show my support.
Carl and the entire Semroc gang are total class act and huge example of how a company SHOULD be ran.
Although we have never met in person, I have never dealt with a finer group of people.
Actual kits we want, quality bar-none, responsiveness to customer needs/wants (I know I bug too much about that Athena though) in a TIMELY fashion, and Star-Trekkian like warp-speed shipping.
I am sure a large portion of the sales of Estes motors are due to Semroc existing along with other smaller rocketry companies as well. Vern Estes long ago realized the real money is in MOTOR sales, not kit sales anyway. The "new" Estes maybe should re-examine that and realize they are not the ONLY player in the BP SU Engine field.
A legal attack on one of the most beloved companies to us dedicated rocketry hobbyists is probably worst possible way to sway any of us back to Estes.
Mostly it just pisses us off beyond belief as Semroc was one of very few companies that actually listened to what we wanted, and DELIVERED in a timely fashion.
Legal or NOT, this lawyering-up communication from Estes to Semroc is just plain WRONG and BAD business. The way this was done cannot cause ANYTHING but bad blood.
If this works out bad for Semroc in any way, in my mind Estes will CEASE TO EXIST and I for one will never acknowledge them again.
I have bought MANY an Estes motor in the past to fly mostly Semroc rockets and clones even though the selection has not been nearly as good as it once was. My engine stock of BP motors at any given time is somewhere north of 500 BP motors (virtually all Estes) from 13 to 24mm and 200+ APCP SU and reloads from 18mm to 38mm. As the BP motors are depleted they will be replaced by equivalents from Quest or Aerotech unless this is resolved free of adverse impact to Semroc.
The "new" Estes has already given me the same BS reason (low sales volume BS and production safety BS) as the "old" Estes for not producing the one item I'd like to see return to the line above all else, the B14. THAT was strike ONE but livable due to the fact that they at least seemed headed in the right direction until THEY pulled this BALONEY on Semroc. This whole legal business aimed directly at Semroc is strike TWO and THREE, with only the third revokable if this is worked out AMICABLY to CARL and SEMROC's satisfaction. If the third strike stands, I'm DONE with Estes FOREVER based on the old crap we had to put up with and now this new crapola aimed at THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS. I will just stick to mid & HP, with a small future amount of LPR engine business going to Quest unless ANOTHER player gets into the engine game, which I would REALLY like anyway.

[Dave Hutch]

Well, here is a link to a similar situation just to show it is not unusual.

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=300

That was an interesting read!

Basically, Sparkfun got a "cease and desist" letter from Sparc, the parent company of Sun Microsystems. The letter was full of threatening language, and was altogether bullying and ridiculous.

What did Sparkfun do?

How did it all shake out?

After our original post, we began talks with SPARC International, directly, without attorneys! They were understanding and reasonable to work with.

Sparkfun did not have to comply with the idiotic demands in the Lawyer letter. They kept their name and their logo.

I think there is a lesson in here somewhere....

[BEC]

Well, here is a link to a similar situation just to show it is not unusual.

http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=300

And here's an explanation of how it all shook out: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=344

Note that they discussed the issues raised in the initial nasty lawer letter without the lawyers. That seems to be a key bit, at least from my own little knothole.

[Earl]

Here's mine,

Ordered 8/12 and on the way.

1 KA-11 Ruskie Model Rocket Kit - $22.00
$22.00
1 KA-12 Saki Model Rocket Kit - $22.00
$22.00
1 KA-15 Geehod Model Rocket Kit - $22.00
$22.00
2 KA-20 Mini Hustler Model Rocket Kit - $21.50
$43.00
1 KA-27 Sky Hook II Model Rocket Kit - $14.50
$14.50
1 KA-29 Mini Omega Model Rocket Kit - $24.50
$24.50
2 KA-30 Cherokee-C Model Rocket Kit - $16.50
$33.00
1 KA-9 SLS Brighton Model Rocket Kit - $75.00
$75.00
1 KLV-33 SLS Laser-X Model Rocket Kit - $53.50
$53.50
1 KN-2 Tau Zero Model Rocket Kit - $18.50
$18.50
1 KV-11 SLS Hustler Model Rocket Kit - $65.00
$65.00
1 KV-28 Goliath Model Rocket Kit - $25.00
$25.00
1 KV-33 Laser-X Model Rocket Kit - $19.50
$19.50
1 KV-41 Orion Model Rocket Kit - $42.50
$42.50
1 KV-57 SLS Lil' Hustler Model Rocket Kit - $45.00
$45.00
1 KV-6 SLS Aero-Dart Model Rocket Kit - $47.00
$47.00
3 KV-9 Sky Hook Model Rocket Kit - $9.00
$27.00
1 Thunderbee Free

Bob


This is great!!!! Carl's in-box has gotta be saggin' a bit by now!

[Shreadvector]

And here's an explanation of how it all shook out: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/news.php?id=344

Note that they discussed the issues raised in the initial nasty lawer letter without the lawyers. That seems to be a key bit, at least from my own little knothole.

That's nice, but not the same situation.

This situation could be easily worked out. And hopefully it will be soon.

[Cohetero-negro]

Unfortunately Estes isn't really a small just-a-handshake kind of company. I wish life was that simple but it's not today. It took REAL MONEY to acquire the company and with that you have obligations and responsibilities and you can't just allow the assets of the company to be used by another. We have a responsibility to our shareholders (which happens to be all of the employees).

Whatever business you're in, you have to protect what you create and own. If you design some new device that allows cars to get better mileage, you get a patent. If you own a store, you make sure that shoplifters don't take your products and that you lock the doors at night. If you're an artist, you wouldn't be happy if someone started selling prints of your artwork online without your authorization. If I started selling "Uncle Mike's Rocket Shack" branded products, UMRS would rightfully be unhappy. :-)

From what I've heard and read, I believe that Carl makes his products mainly because of his love for the hobby and the products themselves. But he is running a business and so are we.

I think that this doesn't have to hurt the cottage industries that have developed in model rockets. I think that's part of what makes the hobby great and often drives innovation. I do think they will have to be more careful about using the property of other companies. But there are ways to work these things out.

I think time will show you that as part of Hobbico, Estes will have a far different approach than that taken by previous leadership. I'm pretty confident that in time you will appreciate what Hobbico does. For the most part, customers love us. That's why we have grown to the company that we are. So far, the priorities at Estes have been on beefing up the resources. Our employees in Penrose can tell you that a lot of things have been improved already. Much of the improvements won't be visible to the market for a while.

Estes has a unique position of being an industry leader even though in some ways they haven't been leading (or allowed to lead) for a while. But that is changing and I think everyone will benefit. Our biggest challenge isn't competition within the model rocket industry... it's all of the other things that have taken people away from rockets and other hobbies. That's what everyone in the industry needs to work on.

Sorry for my rambling... but I hope these additional comments help.

Rick Piester


Rick,

Thanks for the reply. I normally BOTHER your Father and Mother all the time at their distrubution center off 19th Ave or when I catch your Father in one of his two remaining shops; someday I hope to bother you in the same way : )

I buy from Semroc because he was and is the only one selling parts for cloning, or new creations. Estes parts are pretty much non-existent or heavily over priced.

I can understand trademarks and just because someone isn't selling your intellectual property, doesn't mean they have the legal power to even give it away.

Please understand, Carl and Sheryl were the only ones giving a dammm over the last 10 years while Estes (Tunick) didn't give a dammm. Its nothing personal against you or Hobbico, its just that Carl and Sheryl have a loyal and zealot following.

I have often wondered how much copyright and control you or any onwer of Estes has over products and items produced over the years? I have one-of-a-kind items that you might possibly sue me for returning; this is one reason why I really don't like to talk about what I have. Negatives, films, catalog markups, prototypes ... where does it end? If you can shut down Carl, can you claim rights to things you have long since disgarded in the trash or lost to time? I know that Disney has the rights to reposses art and items at anytime claiming copyright and ownership; so if someone walked off with a Sound of the South prop without the permission of Disney, its return can be sued for.

So, I wonder how long JimZ has because that would also be a thorn in your side. Maybe Estes will take over the JimZ site and publish an official guide for old products?

Well the $$$ between you are Carl will has to be worked out. Please realize that he (Carl and Sheryl) has a lot of respect and frankly, more than you do at this moment in time. After all Rick, we don't know you as we do Carl and Sheryl.

At NARAM 52, Carl walked up to myself and two other rocketeers. He asked if we had received our Free Semroc Sky Hook kits. 'No', I said as I was focusing on competition and really didn't make it out to the vendor/sport flying area. He then stated that Bill Simon (former VP of Estes) was signing the Semroc Skyhooks. OMG, a rare signature indeed! So Carl then ran around trying to find Bill with no luck. He then took my name and stated that he would have Bill sign one of the Sky Hooks and I could come pick it up from his both the next day. He didn't have to do that for me ... Carl doesn't know me from 'Jack', but he took his time and effort to make me happy and for what? Not a single penny (I do about $100 a year with Semroc via mail).

So Rick, please understand that a hornets nest has now been stired up and you might want to make decisions that work to your advantage in the court of public opinion.

Yes, Estes-Cox legally owns all intellectual rights and content for your products; I believe 57 years in the time span, but also not forget the hard work Carl and Sheryl have done, and they weren't stealing or forging the Estes brand. While Barry wanted to make a quick buck with RTF flying crap (some if it recalled for safety), Semroc kept the flame alive for BARs and people interested in the very same product line that you are trying to bring back to the hobbyist.

Hope to meet you in person some day...

Jonathan

[Cohetero-negro]

I had a tentaive order 'stored' on Semroc's website for parts for several weeks now and decided earlier today that NOW was the time to place it. Original order (for said parts) was for about $25 or so.

By the time I submitted the 'final' order, the total was over $150.

First let me say, this is not a 'show-off brag' post. It is a 'CHALLENGE' post. I know others have talked about supporting Semroc by doing this very same thing (and some have no doubt already placed an order today), and I think it is a GREAT idea.

So.....whatever you can do tonight, tomorrow, over the weekend (whenever, but do it soon), place an order with Carl & Company and as we say in church (for those so inclined) when it comes to giving to a new building campaign, missionary trip, etc. "give till it hurts a little...or a lot". I know times are economically challenging for many folks, but lets show Carl 'the love' AND......lets show those Estes/Hobbico types who are monitoring this thread (and surely Rick -- with all due respect....Hey, loved what your dad Lee did with Centuri, so no personal disrespect at this point -- will be reading these posts) what kind of dollars we are talking about when we say "Never again Estes" if this goes down badly for Carl.

Challenge cast. Takers??

Earl

Earl,

I will be placing a LARGE similar order into Semroc next week. I have 3, yes 3 of the Semroc Saturn1bs, so I am covered there.

I will buy parts from him ... nose cones, nose blocks, tubes, couplers, baffles, screw eyes, centering rings, lugs, ... all the kinds if items I have been purchasing from him for years now that my LHS didn't have!

Run into you again one of these days Earl.

Jonathan

[Dave Hutch]

Mostly cross posted from another forum - apologies in advance:

It's been said before, but the best solution here is:

Rick Piester, currently Vice President of Proprietary Products, Hobbico, Inc. must first call off the lawyers. They work for him. Rick has said some stuff here that does not seem to agree with what his own lawyers are writing in formal letters. From this point on, Rick needs to run the show, not his employees (lawyers)

Second, he should give Carl a personal call, apologize for how this was handled and arrange a meeting. Perhaps acknowledge that Estes is in better shape now BECAUSE of Carl's efforts. Maybe acknowledge that without Carl's work over the past years, Estes would NOT EVEN HAVE A MARKET for their old designs, and may not have even been worth purchasing.

Third, he should come to a reasonable accommodation with Carl, that will allow Estes/Hobbico to retain it's intellectual property, and will allow Carl and Semroc to continue to run his excellent business and support the hobby. There are MANY win-win scenarios here. They have been detailed in previous posts. They range from the very simple (changing wording on Clone kits to better reflect that they are produced "under licence") to the more complex (partner with Semroc to produce low volume kits that Estes can sell through their supply chain)

Fourth, Rick should direct the company lawyers to draw up paperwork that reflects the decision of the Vice President of Proprietary Products. Once again, THE LAWYERS WORK FOR RICK. Anything that Carl or Semroc recieves from the lawyers from this point forward might as well come from the desk of Rick Piester, Vice President of Proprietary Products, Hobbico, Inc.

[Cohetero-negro]

Mostly cross posted from another forum - apologies in advance:

It's been said before, but the best solution here is:

Rick Piester, currently Vice President of Proprietary Products, Hobbico, Inc. must first call off the lawyers. They work for him. Rick has said some stuff here that does not seem to agree with what his own lawyers are writing in formal letters. From this point on, Rick needs to run the show, not his employees (lawyers)

Second, he should give Carl a personal call, apologize for how this was handled and arrange a meeting. Perhaps acknowledge that Estes is in better shape now BECAUSE of Carl's efforts. Maybe acknowledge that without Carl's work over the past years, Estes would NOT EVEN HAVE A MARKET for their old designs, and may not have even been worth purchasing.

Third, he should come to a reasonable accommodation with Carl, that will allow Estes/Hobbico to retain it's intellectual property, and will allow Carl and Semroc to continue to run his excellent business and support the hobby. There are MANY win-win scenarios here. They have been detailed in previous posts. They range from the very simple (changing wording on Clone kits to better reflect that they are produced "under licence") to the more complex (partner with Semroc to produce low volume kits that Estes can sell through their supply chain)

Fourth, Rick should direct the company lawyers to draw up paperwork that reflects the decision of the Vice President of Proprietary Products. Once again, THE LAWYERS WORK FOR RICK. Anything that Carl or Semroc recieves from the lawyers from this point forward might as well come from the desk of Rick Piester, Vice President of Proprietary Products, Hobbico, Inc.


Dave,

I disagree with you... Hobbico has EVERY right to stop Carl. They don't have to 'play nice' from a legal standpoint.

Now from a customer relations/ public opinion standpoint, they need to do some damage control. They (Hobbico) might decide that public opinion won't pay enough employee salaries or keep the lights on in the building and just crush the competition ... after all, Hobbico is a business...

Its a tough call because if you created a product, and then found someone making money off of your efforts and investments, you would want to put a stop to it also.

Be careful what you wish for as it might come true in the end. We all wanted Estes back to the pre-damon days, and now its happening and we are not liking the process.

Jonathan

[jetlag]

Jonathan,
In the Pre-Damon days, as you call it, this would never be happening, for a host of reasons. And I still believe Estes can try, but they won't succeed, that is, if Carl chooses to fight them. And, if more letters are sent out, the smaller guys out there would be able to pool their resources for the fight.
Counter sue. They have basis.
Allen

[Jerry Irvine]

I think this whole episode amounts to a detail of "close of escrow" of the company. The new owner has an affirmative duty to assert its intellectual property rights. Once the formality is satisfied by Carl at Semroc by acknowledging formally the superior rights of Estes-Cox to their own intellectual property, he will go on pretty much as usual with what he has been doing.

I am not worried.

It's not like Carl erected his central finger to the air and asserted his constitutional rights in a blather filled response. He acknowledges Estes' rights. He just claims and basically proves his "infringement" is tiny in scale, is not a taking of a right but a tribute to it, and offers to settle by simply admitting the rights are theirs and thank you very much for letting him use them on a small scale to make historical artifact copies for modern fans.

Estes may be happy with the simple admission of their rights, or they may ask for a tiny token payment just to say they did. In any case Semroc will continue to be one of the favorite rocket suppliers for past and current Estes employees as well as the small but excited fan base Semroc serves.

I don't think you need to suck Hobbico into this. Let Estes handle it at their level, where it belongs. Hobbico obviously has expressed they are open to Estes resolving this in as permissive a way as they are comfortable doing. It probably doesn't hurt some of the biggest Semroc fans are Estes employees themselves!

This is not an example of adverse positions. It is a love-fest. There isn't a lawyer on the planet that understands that.

Just Jerry

[Cohetero-negro]

Jonathan,
In the Pre-Damon days, as you call it, this would never be happening, for a host of reasons. And I still believe Estes can try, but they won't succeed, that is, if Carl chooses to fight them. And, if more letters are sent out, the smaller guys out there would be able to pool their resources for the fight.
Counter sue. They have basis.
Allen

Allen,

You have correted me ... thank you.

Well its David vs. Goliath ( Semroc vs. Hobbico) and I am cheering for the underdog, Semroc.

Maybe we should start a 'What Estes should NOT do to make $$$' thread?

Jonathan

P.s. I spoke to an ex-manufacture that sold his company to Estes back in the 90's about trademark and copyrights. He told me that if you took a rocket, gave it a new name, new decals, and paint scheme, you could market it as your own; shapes are not protected. Who can prevent you from marketing a trapezoid or a sphere or triangle? I don't know, its making me dizzy.

[jetlag]

Well-said, Jerry. I hope you are correct.
And, Jonathan, that list you mention is longer today than 2 days ago! :rolleyes:
I think we are all on the same page, even Jerry! I was VERY emotional yesterday.
Allen

[Dave Hutch]

Dave,

I disagree with you... Hobbico has EVERY right to stop Carl. They don't have to 'play nice' from a legal standpoint.



Well, they don't HAVE to play nice, but this could rapidly turn into a "lose-lose" scenario for them. I understand what they want, but I hope they realize that going about it this way was a BIG mistake.

I also happen to be of the opinion that their legal rights are on pretty shaky ground, if Carl's interpretation of the legalese is correct. Estes may have trademark rights to the NAMES of their old kits, but they do not (as far as I know) have patent rights that extend to things like nose cone shapes or minute details of construction.

I don't think there is ANY way that Estes can stop someone from making kits of scale models of historical rockets. Rick Piester even said as much here. That completely blows any argument they have with respect to scale models right there. There is no way that Estes can stop someone from manufacturing and selling nose cones in parabolic or ogive shapes. A parabola is a mathematical formula - you can't patent it.

Anyone can get their lawyer to send a letter demanding pretty much anything. I could hire a lawyer to send a letter to Estes claiming rights to the Chrome-Dome rocket, because that was my nickname on my football team years ago. The claim is totally bogus, but it would not stop me from making it. Likewise, many of the "demands" of the lawyer letter that Carl got are bogus.

It's a tactic of the lawyers. They want "X" so they demand "X + Y + Z", and try to intimidate the small players. The lawyers think that if they drive a competitor out of business, it's a "win" for them. People like Rick Piester realize (and have explicitly stated) that competition is not the challenge. It's now up to the people who really run the show at Estes/Hobbico to take control of this situation, and do things the right way.

[jetlag]

In court, I guarantee you all of Rick's posts ( and Carl's) here and elsewhere (esp. Facebook and Twitter and others) will all become exhibits. Rick kind a busted his lawyers' own efforts through certain remarks he has made. Estes long inaction also goes aginst them. I doubt we will be hearing from him anytime soon.

I expect this to go away. We will need a special Kool-Aid mixture, though, to wash all this down...
Allen

[Cohetero-negro]

Well, they don't HAVE to play nice, but this could rapidly turn into a "lose-lose" scenario for them. I understand what they want, but I hope they realize that going about it this way was a BIG mistake.

I also happen to be of the opinion that their legal rights are on pretty shaky ground, if Carl's interpretation of the legalese is correct. Estes may have trademark rights to the NAMES of their old kits, but they do not (as far as I know) have patent rights that extend to things like nose cone shapes or minute details of construction.

I don't think there is ANY way that Estes can stop someone from making kits of scale models of historical rockets. Rick Piester even said as much here. That completely blows any argument they have with respect to scale models right there. There is no way that Estes can stop someone from manufacturing and selling nose cones in parabolic or ogive shapes. A parabola is a mathematical formula - you can't patent it.

Anyone can get their lawyer to send a letter demanding pretty much anything. I could hire a lawyer to send a letter to Estes claiming rights to the Chrome-Dome rocket, because that was my nickname on my football team years ago. The claim is totally bogus, but it would not stop me from making it. Likewise, many of the "demands" of the lawyer letter that Carl got are bogus.

It's a tactic of the lawyers. They want "X" so they demand "X + Y + Z", and try to intimidate the small players. The lawyers think that if they drive a competitor out of business, it's a "win" for them. People like Rick Piester realize (and have explicitly stated) that competition is not the challenge. It's now up to the people who really run the show at Estes/Hobbico to take control of this situation, and do things the right way.


Dave,

BINGO! Estes can't stop Carl from making scale kits. What they can do is stop him from using Estes instructions and patented inventions in the use of his kits.

Also, I was told by an ex-manufacture, that I could take any manufacture's kit, change the name, decals, and paint scheme, and there wasn't anything the inventor could do about it from a legal standpoint. Yes it is 'intellectual stealing' but it goes on everyday all over the world. And NO , two wrongs don't make a right.

E.g. The F-15, Generation 4 fighter, the world's best, was a copy of the Mig-25 Foxbat. Can CCCP sue McDonald Duglas?

Russian Buran Space Shuttle, an almost EXACT duplicate of the STS Amerian orbitors ... so Rockwell is going to sue who and where?

You could, take a Estes kit, and call it a Semroc kit, change the paint, add new decals, change the chute size slightly, and the motor tube length, and make millions or die trying!

Jonathan

[Cohetero-negro]

In court, I guarantee you all of Rick's posts ( and Carl's) here and elsewhere (esp. Facebook and Twitter and others) will all become exhibits. Rick kind a busted his lawyers' own efforts through certain remarks he has made. Estes long inaction also goes aginst them. I doubt we will be hearing from him anytime soon.

I expect this to go away. We will need a special Kool-Aid mixture, though, to wash all this down...
Allen

Allen,

Copyright laws exist for 57 years ... so you can be inactive for a very long time :)

Why don't we hear jinggle bells on TV anymore? Because two old hags with the help of lawyers sued and won rights to the song. Now everytime the tune is played, they get royalties.

Even our postings are protected. 57 years from now, anyone can use your postings in a book and there is NOTHNG you can do about it.

This is why that guy who was writing the book on model rocket history wasn't going to make it very far; most of the materials and patents and rights are still owned by someone else.

I figure a TRUE history of model rocketry book won't see the light of day until 2027 (57 years after 1970 which some mark as the end of the golden age of model rocketry). Now how many of us will be around in 2027?

Jonathan - I will try to make it to 2027.

[jetlag]

The F-15 was not a copy. It was a response to the MiG 25, which is not/was not a very useful machine, except in exquisitely trained hands. The F-15 has shot many down. The same cannot be said for the MiG.

The Russians became quite adept at industrial defense espionage. Remember what happened to their copied version of the SST when certain incorrect numbers were allowed to be stolen?
It crashed!
Whoops!

But, back to the thread: What has Estes actually 'patented?' I am unaware of any, so I hope some of you may know. Good points, Jonathan.
Allen

[Cohetero-negro]

The F-15 was not a copy. It was a response to the MiG 25, which is not/was not a very useful machine, except in exquisitely trained hands. The F-15 has shot many down. The same cannot be said for the MiG.

The Russians became quite adept at industrial defense espionage. Remember what happened to their copied version of the SST when certain incorrect numbers were allowed to be stolen?
It crashed!
Whoops!

But, back to the thread: What has Estes actually 'patented?' I am unaware of any, so I hope some of you may know. Good points, Jonathan.
Allen


The Chinese have a new Gen 4.5 Fighter, the J-10, that used Eurofighter and F-16 developments: http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/fighter/j10.asp

The F-15's shape and design was heavily influenced by the Foxbat. But that is for another thread.

Everything Estes and its employee's produced is covered under copyright. Someone posted a link to a site covering copyright and it is spot on.

Estes didn't have to formerly apply for a Cineroc patent (they did) in order to protect the product.

That Aussie band, Men at Work, was sued successfully because a few notes of their hit 80's song, sounded similar to an Aussie Camp fire song and yes just like the 'jingle bell hags' was owned by someone else. Lawyers have made the world into a crazy and cut throat world. Instead of defending people from people, lawyers now enable people to turn on people.

By defending Estes, I am defending all of us when it comes to our own intellectual creations.

Now I just want to understand how logos can be shared between companies :rolleyes:

Jonathan

[Rocketflyer]

I don't think Sheryl would appreciate Carl going to an asian massage parlor!

:chuckle:


Ah GI-san, you want happy ending with massage? :chuckle:

[Cohetero-negro]

Ah GI-san, you want happy ending with massage? :chuckle:


Al Gore seems to have issue with massages:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/7850976/Al-Gore-accused-of-sexually-harassing-massage-therapist.html

And with two other massage therapists:

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/exclusive_al_gore_sex_scandal_two_new_female_accusers_assault/celebrity/69024


I guess you can call this, 'Global Whoring'?

Jonathan

[barone]

Ah GI-san, you want happy ending with massage? :chuckle:
ROTFLMAO!

[Dave Hutch]

Jonathan

I am not a lawyer (thank God), but I think you may be confusing patents with trademarks.

Estes has no doubt trademarked its name, logo, and likely the names and photos of all of its model kits. A trademark includes any word, name, symbol, device or combination thereof. The thing to be trademarked must be used in commerce to identify and distinguish the goods or services of the applying party from those of others.

A patent is issued for a unique idea or innovation to a product. Estes has no doubt patented the Cineroc mechanism. This would not prevent a competitor from producing a rocket video camera. They could not copy the Cineroc mechanism (patent) nor could they call the product the "Cineroc" (trademark) Estes may also hold patents on innovations like the old Centuri method of securing the shock cord (remember those cool metallic foil sticky things anyone?)

I can't see where Semroc could possibly be in violation of any patented ideas or innovations.

I can see where Semroc could need to talk to Estes with regard to the names of some trademarked kits (Laser-X, Orion, Excalibur, etc). This is the part that could have been handled very effectively via a short conversation during NARAM. I think the fact that it was not even mentioned then, and was handled via a formal, demanding, insulting, overreaching letter from a lawyer is what is irritating Carl and the rest of us so much.

[jetlag]

Allen,

Copyright laws exist for 57 years ... so you can be inactive for a very long time :)

Jonathan - I will try to make it to 2027.


"The length and requirements for copyright duration are subject to change by legislation, and since the early 20th century there have been a number of adjustments made in various countries, which can make determining the duration of a given copyright somewhat difficult. For example, the United States used to require copyrights to be renewed after 28 years to stay in force, and formerly required a copyright notice upon first publication to gain coverage." Wiki.

I guess what we do not know is whether Estes renewed their copyrights according to the existing laws at the time. However, this does not change the fact that Estes did not patent their kits. Intellectual property definitions are what the lawyers will have to hash out.
What would be nice is to have a lawyer post here with Copyright law expertise.
That might clear up (or muddy----gasp) our thinking somewhat. My sister used to work for ASCAP, and she thinks there may be some concerns, but the actual making of a bag of parts to recreate a no-longer produced (or patented) rocket model is not covered.
Allen

[Cohetero-negro]

Jonathan

I am not a lawyer (thank God), but I think you may be confusing patents with trademarks.

Estes has no doubt trademarked its name, logo, and likely the names and photos of all of its model kits. A trademark includes any word, name, symbol, device or combination thereof. The thing to be trademarked must be used in commerce to identify and distinguish the goods or services of the applying party from those of others.

A patent is issued for a unique idea or innovation to a product. Estes has no doubt patented the Cineroc mechanism. This would not prevent a competitor from producing a rocket video camera. They could not copy the Cineroc mechanism (patent) nor could they call the product the "Cineroc" (trademark) Estes may also hold patents on innovations like the old Centuri method of securing the shock cord (remember those cool metallic foil sticky things anyone?)

I can't see where Semroc could possibly be in violation of any patented ideas or innovations.

I can see where Semroc could need to talk to Estes with regard to the names of some trademarked kits (Laser-X, Orion, Excalibur, etc). This is the part that could have been handled very effectively via a short conversation during NARAM. I think the fact that it was not even mentioned then, and was handled via a formal, demanding, insulting, overreaching letter from a lawyer is what is irritating Carl and the rest of us so much.



Dave,

I believe that Carl's biggest mistake was by using Estes instructions to aide in the selling of his kits.

I have a few of his CC Spaceplanes and X-21s where it clearly directs the modeler to the JimZ site to download the instructions of OOP Estes kits. Carl is sunk on that one.

If Carl had drawn new instructions, and made enough subtle changes to the process and illustrations, he would have never received that letter, IMHO.

He used Estes Copyright and Trademark to sell his Semroc kits. I think that is what got him into trouble and not the 'resemblence' of rocket.

I can copy a Centuri Micron, extend its length by 0.2", give it red flame decals, call it the Mu, and there is noithing Hobbico can do to stop me, or is there?

I don't own Semroc's upscalled, Laser-X, if that has new instructions, then I think Carl is safe on that kit. He will have to likely change the name to Laser-Probe or Laser-EXP. Yep I just checked the Semroc site and he is going to have to change the kit names at the very least...

But I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV.

Jonathan

[Cohetero-negro]

Nothing here, just move along people.

[UMRS]

Two times nothing to see here :)

[Shreadvector]

Last paragraph is interesting.


I did not check to see if it ever moved along from "pending".

Vern has a bit to say about Estes v. Centuri and a patent (never went to court): http://www.vernestes.com/images/Sport%20Rocketry%20Articles/SR%20-%20Part%202%20with%20cover.pdf

[Cohetero-negro]

I think in lite of the fact prying eyes may be montoring this forum, Im not sure that was a great thing to point out. As a matter of fact If I were Gordon I might have a weed up my a$$ about a post like this. Perhaps you should 'remove' it.

All due respect

Mike

Mike,

We have 2 former and 4+ current Estes employees and 1 owner on YORS forum already. But if you think its best, I will remove my posting and you should remove yours ... they know about Gordy already...

Jonathan

[Cohetero-negro]

Last paragraph is interesting.


I did not check to see if it ever moved along from "pending".

Vern has a bit to say about Estes v. Centuri and a patent (never went to court): http://www.vernestes.com/images/Sport%20Rocketry%20Articles/SR%20-%20Part%202%20with%20cover.pdf


Fred,

So Vern was preparing to sue Lee ... but they are the best of friends!? See, things are never what they appear to be.

Well maybe not; my wife had to sue her sister in a traffic accident. it was nothing personal as it was the only way to get bills payed by her sister's insurance company.

Jonathan

[Dave Hutch]

"The length and requirements for copyright duration are subject to change by legislation, and since the early 20th century there have been a number of adjustments made in various countries, which can make determining the duration of a given copyright somewhat difficult. For example, the United States used to require copyrights to be renewed after 28 years to stay in force, and formerly required a copyright notice upon first publication to gain coverage." Wiki.

I guess what we do not know is whether Estes renewed their copyrights according to the existing laws at the time. However, this does not change the fact that Estes did not patent their kits. Intellectual property definitions are what the lawyers will have to hash out.
What would be nice is to have a lawyer post here with Copyright law expertise.
That might clear up (or muddy----gasp) our thinking somewhat. My sister used to work for ASCAP, and she thinks there may be some concerns, but the actual making of a bag of parts to recreate a no-longer produced (or patented) rocket model is not covered.
Allen


That's fascinating....

If the old ownership of Estes did not cross all the t's and dot the i's with regard to maintaining their copyright on the old kit names... (and you know this is very possible with the lack of interest the old owner showed in the historical kits)

It might just happen that if push came to shove and this went to court, SEMROC could wind up holding the copyrights to all of the old kit names that they have been producing for the past few years.

In fact, this might just explain the intimidating "lawyer letter" tactics being used. If Hobbico's lawyers saw that they were in a particularly weak position, one strategy might have been "If we go to court or try to renew the copyright, we're screwed. Lets scare the hell out of Carl, and ask for the moon. He can't afford a lawyer. He'll probably just capitulate, and then we can get the copyright back. "

[Jerry Irvine]

So Vern was preparing to sue Lee ... but they are the best of friends!?
Jonathan
A lawsuit among friends is a way for two businesses to resolve a legal issue, each take opposite positions on. Usually the first couple of rounds of pleadings and hearings clarifies the issues to the degree to make a settlement compelling.

Usually it is only people with a hurtful agenda that extend the litigation process as long as possible and in as many permutations as possible. Kosdon for example sued me in four venues, which took 9 years to reach a conclusion, over a $5000 promised investment, of which he tendered $3311 and received a small claims judgement for it 60 days into the process.

I was at a gathering for drinks among Vern, Lee, Lonnie and a step-in by Harry (who didn't need yet another drink) where the whole thing was entirely collegial and jovial. It was one of the more memorable moments of my life.

Jerry

That said, cite:

Copyright does not prohibit all copying or replication. In the United States, the fair use doctrine, codified by the Copyright Act of 1976 as 17 U.S.C. § 107, permits some copying and distribution without permission of the copyright holder or payment to same. The statute does not clearly define fair use, but instead gives four non-exclusive factors to consider in a fair use analysis. Those factors are:

17 U.S.C. § 107

1. the purpose and character of the use;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

[Cohetero-negro]

That's fascinating....

If the old ownership of Estes did not cross all the t's and dot the i's with regard to maintaining their copyright on the old kit names... (and you know this is very possible with the lack of interest the old owner showed in the historical kits)

It might just happen that if push came to shove and this went to court, SEMROC could wind up holding the copyrights to all of the old kit names that they have been producing for the past few years.

In fact, this might just explain the intimidating "lawyer letter" tactics being used. If Hobbico's lawyers saw that they were in a particularly weak position, one strategy might have been "If we go to court or try to renew the copyright, we're screwed. Lets scare the hell out of Carl, and ask for the moon. He can't afford a lawyer. He'll probably just capitulate, and then we can get the copyright back. "


Dave,

That could be a very likely senario.

Carl,

Can we send you a little something to help with at least your first round of legal consultations? I would give you $50.00 as my way of saying thank you for the Skyhook/Bill Simon kit!

Just post a paypal-legal fund e-mail address!

Jonathan

[Bazookadale]

Dave,

That could be a very likely senario.

Carl,

Can we send you a little something to help with at least your first round of legal consultations? I would give you $50.00 as my way of saying thank you for the Skyhook/Bill Simon kit!

Just post a paypal-legal fund e-mail address!

Jonathan

If there needs to be a legal defense fund set up (let's hope not) count me in!

[UMRS]

We offered up Semroc $100.00 to start up a fund yesterday. Carl and the gang the offer is still there if you guys want to fight this. You have a lot of support behind were there if you need us :)

[mycrofte]

There are squatter's rights in the law. If you made the kit for a certain amount of time with no complaints. Let alone, all the disclaimers for only making kits out of production...

I remember noting that you (and other makers) quit producing kits when they were mass produced.

[jadebox]

To all ...

Please be careful about what you post. There is a lot of incorrect information being posted in this thread. Intellectually property laws are complex. And we aren't lawyers. I don't think it does Carl, or any of us, any good to spread misinformation.

-- Roger

[Jagged]

You know what?

This pissed me off somethin' fierce.

I was savin' for a spray booth, but that can wait.

I'll spend the money at Semroc instead.

I was thinkin' o' pickin' one o' dem dar Flutterbys when they came out.

Not now.

The name Estes really puts a bad taste in your mouth, as does Hobbico now I suppose also.

What is your name worth? What is your reputation worth?

"Better to be pissed off than pissed on."

[Bazookadale]

To all ...

Please be careful about what you post. There is a lot of incorrect information being posted in this thread. Intellectually property laws are complex. And we aren't lawyers. I don't think it does Carl, or any of us, any good to spread misinformation.

-- Roger


Excellent point - Carl if I could give you some legal advice as a friend - NEVER take legal advice from a friend.

[Zeus-cat]

To all ...

Please be careful about what you post. There is a lot of incorrect information being posted in this thread. Intellectually property laws are complex. And we aren't lawyers. I don't think it does Carl, or any of us, any good to spread misinformation.

-- Roger

I agree completely. If all we do is bash Estes/Hobbico and say things like I will never buy anything from Estes again after the way they treated Carl and Semroc, then we don't offer anyone a way to resolve this peacefully. We should settle down and let the two parties work this out. Both parties have said that is what they want to do. Let's let them do it.

[scigs30]

Estes and its employees do not leave a bad taste in my mouth. When I first came back to this hobby, it was Estes that referred me to Semroc and Phred for aftermarket parts. I cannot believe all the accusations, assumptions and thoughts of boycotting Estes. All this and we still don't know all the facts or what the outcome is going to be. I will reserve judgement until I have all the facts, and still I will continue to support Estes and Semroc. Carl is a prime example of how a business should operate and I wish other companies can take note. With that being said, it is a small business and he is able to keep everything at a personal level. Hobbico is a large business owned by its employees and is not able to operate without corporate lawyers and they are not alone. Hobbico has many subdivisions and boycotting Estes will do nothing to hurt Hobbico. What is the worse case scenario? Hobbico dumps Estes? Who will that really hurt? I have a lot of respect for the employees at Estes and I will in no shape or form do anything that will hurt their livelihood unless there is proof they are intentionally attempting to shut down Carl. There is a lot of room for negotiating still and I am anxious to see the outcome. We can all speculate on what should or will happen with this, but it is all speculation. I am pleased that Estes employees post messages here and answer our non political questions, it would be a shame to loose that. Once again, Hobbico is a large business and they are going to do what is in their best interest as management deems necessary, this is how all large business operate. I did talk with my Father in laws Lawyer for his business and showed him this thread. He did advise me this area of the law is tricky and requires lawyers that specialize in trademark and copy right infringements. He did say that most corporate lawyers know better than to send out a threating letter when it comes to infringement alligations. If a company or law firm were to do this, they could be sued if they did not follow through. The reason for this is to prevent large corporations from scare tactics of smaller businesses. Any way he used a bunch of large terms that I cannot remember or understand.......Lawyers.

[Armour]

You know what's sad..........

That 99% of the lawyer's give the other 1% a bad name! :D

[Carl@Semroc]

After a very enjoyable conversation with Rick Piester that we both agreed that probably should have been made much earlier, we are all satisfied that this has ended well. In fact, from my standpoint, I feel better about our long-term relationship with Estes-Cox and Hobbico than I thought I ever would. Rick and I both regret the lawyers being involved. They were not necessary (as usual) and the terms under which we will move forward are better than we would have ever expected. Rick is much like his Dad and Mom, and that is great for the hobby.

You will see some changes to our packaging and website to reflect our new relationship. Please stop the talk about boycotts. I was never comfortable with that since I really liked all my new friends at Estes-Cox that we met at NARAM. They are doing everything right to get model rocketry back on track. No need for a legal fund, either!

The orders placed by many of you over the past 72 hours have overwhelmed Sheryl, but I think she liked it. Now to start restocking under our new licensing agreement that we should have in place soon. I feel confident that Estes-Cox and Semroc will work closely to enhance each other and grow the hobby.

On a personal note, the responses to this thread and the support shown has been both amazing and very humbling. I hope to be able to return the favor to all of you in the future. It really is better to have friends than money. It is good to be reminded of that occasionally.

[jbuscaglia]

It really is better to have friends than money.

True, but it's nice to have both!

I'm glad that things are working out and hope that I can continue to send my money to my friends at both Semroc and Estes for many years.

[foose4string]

After a very enjoyable conversation with Rick Piester that we both agreed that probably should have been made much earlier, we are all satisfied that this has ended well. In fact, from my standpoint, I feel better about our long-term relationship with Estes-Cox and Hobbico than I thought I ever would. Rick and I both regret the lawyers being involved. They were not necessary (as usual) and the terms under which we will move forward are better than we would have ever expected. Rick is much like his Dad and Mom, and that is great for the hobby.

You will see some changes to our packaging and website to reflect our new relationship. Please stop the talk about boycotts. I was never comfortable with that since I really liked all my new friends at Estes-Cox that we met at NARAM. They are doing everything right to get model rocketry back on track. No need for a legal fund, either!

The orders placed by many of you over the past 72 hours have overwhelmed Sheryl, but I think she liked it. Now to start restocking under our new licensing agreement that we should have in place soon. I feel confident that Estes-Cox and Semroc will work closely to enhance each other and grow the hobby.

On a personal note, the responses to this thread and the support shown has been both amazing and very humbling. I hope to be able to return the favor to all of you in the future. It really is better to have friends than money. It is good to be reminded of that occasionally.


Great News!!!!!! So glad this had a happy ending! (and no, I'm not refering to oriental massage) :rolleyes:
We have your back, Carl! You (and yours) contribution to this hobby has been immense. We are all very grateful for Semroc's existence. Anyone who doesn't agree is either blind or stupid.

Glad Estes/Hobbico(Rick) was willing to talk this out with you and get things resolved expeditiously and amicably.

[tbzep]

I hope to be able to return the favor to all of you in the future.

I think you have it backwards. I hope to be able to return the favor to you someday. The few posts and emails that we have made over the last couple of days are a drop in the bucket compared to what you have done for rocketry and the joy you have given to all of us. :)

I'm very happy that the friendship that Vern and Lee had has carried on with you and Rick working out a peaceful co-existence...or even a good case of mutualism. :cool:

[PaulK]

This is really great news Carl. :) I've been watching this closely since it started, hoping for some positive news, yet worried about negative outcomes; This has really been eating at me. Thanks so much for the udpate, and to both you and Rick for working things out quickly.

[Royatl]

After a very enjoyable conversation with Rick Piester that we both agreed that probably should have been made much earlier, we are all satisfied that this has ended well. In fact, from my standpoint, I feel better about our long-term relationship with Estes-Cox and Hobbico than I thought I ever would. Rick and I both regret the lawyers being involved. They were not necessary (as usual) and the terms under which we will move forward are better than we would have ever expected. Rick is much like his Dad and Mom, and that is great for the hobby.



HUZZAH!!! And Hurray!! And Hurrah, even!

[foose4string]

I think you have it backwards. I hope to be able to return the favor to you someday. The few posts and emails that we have made over the last couple of days are a drop in the bucket compared to what you have done for rocketry and the joy you have given to all of us. :)

I'm very happy that the friendship that Vern and Lee had has carried on with you and Rick working out a peaceful co-existence...or even a good case of mutualism. :cool:


Agreed. Semroc has payed it forward many times over. You deserve any amount of goodwill that comes your way. You earned it!

[Sunward]

....You will see some changes to our packaging and website to reflect our new relationship.....
So it is taken care of?

You must be feeling much better now.

[Jerry Irvine]

He did advise me this area of the law is tricky and requires lawyers that specialize in trademark and copy right infringements. He did say that most corporate lawyers know better than to send out a threating letter when it comes to infringement alligations. If a company or law firm were to do this, they could be sued if they did not follow through. The reason for this is to prevent large corporations from scare tactics of smaller businesses.
Exactly as I said. Suing their lawyers is NOT the same thing as suing them. :) I would donate to a fund for that!

Carl, "I told you so". We really should sit down over a beer sometime with Rick so I can tell Rick stories to you and totally embarrass him.

Just Jerry :D

[CPMcGraw]

After a very enjoyable conversation with Rick Piester... we are all satisfied... I feel better about our long-term relationship with Estes-Cox and Hobbico than I thought I ever would... the terms under which we will move forward are better than we would have ever expected...

I smell balsa being turned... :D

On a personal note, the responses to this thread and the support shown has been both amazing and very humbling. I hope to be able to return the favor to all of you in the future. It really is better to have friends than money. It is good to be reminded of that occasionally.

So very glad things have been worked out. The community responses, from one end to the other, are simply a reflection of the hard work you've put into being a customer oriented company. If Rick and his Hobbyco team can come close to matching your high-set standard, then we can certainly expect good things from the "new" Estes.

Rick, if you're reading this, then Thank You, Too! for easing Carl's stress level. You will find you really do have a good working partner in Carl and SEMROC, and maintaining a strong relationship with them will prove to be an asset down the road.

Pay attention to the support and affection we all have for Carl. It's not impossible for Estes to one day experience that level of loyalty again. This is a good beginning.

[barone]

I think you have it backwards. I hope to be able to return the favor to you someday. The few posts and emails that we have made over the last couple of days are a drop in the bucket compared to what you have done for rocketry and the joy you have given to all of us. :)

I'm very happy that the friendship that Vern and Lee had has carried on with you and Rick working out a peaceful co-existence...or even a good case of mutualism. :cool:
My sentiments exactly! And to Jerry....I guess you were right.... :o

[jetlag]

Woo Hoo!! Carl that is wonderful news, indeed!

Now I can put my 1970 catalogue back under my pillow!

Fantastic job, Rick! Way to step up to the plate and hit one out! Thank-You!

Jerry, You were right, indeed! :eek:

Allen

[scigs30]

One hour after my long post and everything is ok...... :chuckle:

[Jagged]

"Go put the rope away Bubba, looks like we won't be needin' it."

:chuckle:

[JStarStar]

I smell balsa being turned... :D



So very glad things have been worked out. The community responses, from one end to the other, are simply a reflection of the hard work you've put into being a customer oriented company. If Rick and his Hobbyco team can come close to matching your high-set standard, then we can certainly expect good things from the "new" Estes.

Rick, if you're reading this, then Thank You, Too! for easing Carl's stress level. You will find you really do have a good working partner in Carl and SEMROC, and maintaining a strong relationship with them will prove to be an asset down the road.

Pay attention to the support and affection we all have for Carl. It's not impossible for Estes to one day experience that level of loyalty again. This is a good beginning.

Yes, it's certainly a VERY good sign that this whole little tempest was solved quickly and amicably, in a manner of what, three days? (certainly lightning-fast in the realm of legal wrangling.)

Certainly I, and many rocketeers, would love to see Estes once again fully engaged and involved in a positive way in hobby rocketry, instead of (apparently) regarding it as something of a necessary nuisance as has been the case for far too long.

Without speculating too much, I would guess the original letter was something of a formality normally sent out after new acquisitions and spearheaded by the legal firms.

Once the real rocketry people (i.e. Rick and Carl) got together on the phone, things started moving faster than a 3-stager on a B14-0 (HINT HINT RICK :chuckle: ).

So after a lot of the venom and paranoia of the last couple days, a big thumbs-up to all involved for coming to a quick solution which should be win-win for everybody.

[Chas Russell]

Great news, indeed! I do hope that everything will be in writing (to preclude those nasty wiretaps...).

I did send an order in that included an 18" body tube to make a Cineroc clone. Carl and Sheryl wanted to include a 4" section of the same tube. I guess they have seen me cut tubing before. Another example of their superior customer service!

Embarrassing stories about Rick Piester? I have a picture of him getting a trophy at NARAM-13 from Jim Kukowski. Ricky (at the time) had to be no more than 7 or 8. Jim Barrowman is behind them in bell bottom slacks that were the rage at the time. My how we have grown.

Chas

[Rocket Doctor]

My 2 Cents.

I wasn't going to post anything here on this new topic, but, i cannot sit back and say nothing.

Barry is gone, January 15th was it, you now have a new owner with new ideas (Hobbico).
Don't blame anyone at the 1295 H H Street Address, they are not running the show, rather Hobbico.

The Estes employees are dedicated to their jobs and to their customers. We had 19 years of mixed emotions going on and the veil has been broken.

Business is business and should be handled that way,if there are issues, they need to be worked out in a civil manner.

Don't boycott Estes, send your frustration out to Hobbico, not Estes or their employees, The Estes employees should not suffer the brunt of any situation here.

I HAD been associated with Estes for many years, I caught HELL many times for sticking up for the hobbyists, the proof is in the pudding when the Estes forum was shut down , that was a sad day for me. Even to the point of getting out of the hobby .

I guess fighting for what you think is right sometimes gets you in trouble and i tokk the hit.

I also received an eamil from a competitor asking why I posted the announcements for the classic Series , iI did that as a favor, i was also shocked to hear about this new line. No inside information.

A mutual friendship has sufferd over this, and , it should have never happened.

I'm staying out of this "dispute" But, once again, don't take it out on the Estes employees,

[Ltvscout]

After a very enjoyable conversation with Rick Piester that we both agreed that probably should have been made much earlier, we are all satisfied that this has ended well. In fact, from my standpoint, I feel better about our long-term relationship with Estes-Cox and Hobbico than I thought I ever would. Rick and I both regret the lawyers being involved. They were not necessary (as usual) and the terms under which we will move forward are better than we would have ever expected. Rick is much like his Dad and Mom, and that is great for the hobby.
That is great to here, Carl. You and Rick are reasonable people, and I figured that once you two had the chance to talk that the air would be cleared. That's why I stayed out of this thread until now. ;)

Hopefully there won't be a raise coming in retail pricing. :chuckle: If so, everyone, order up!

[Ltvscout]

Great News!!!!!! So glad this had a happy ending! (and no, I'm not refering to oriental massage) :rolleyes:
Actually, after all this stress, Rick and Carl should go for a massage this weekend. :chuckle:

[Ltvscout]

My sentiments exactly! And to Jerry....I guess you were right.... :o
As Fred would say, "Put that in the FAQ!"

[Solomoriah]

As Fred would say, "Put that in the FAQ!"
Hey, it had to happen sometime, didn't it?

:D

[GuyNoir]

It is a love-fest. There isn't a lawyer on the planet that understands that.

Joe Egan did.

[scigs30]

And my Saturn V shipped today. :D

[GuyNoir]

t really is better to have friends than money.

Amen.

Bunny
(former investment banker)

[Jerry Irvine]

Joe Egan did.
Point.

Can we end this thread now? I know this site does not like locking threads, but this is an instance where it is actually justified and not out of retribution, but celebration.

Jerry

[BEC]

OK, but right after I get my "FANTASTIC NEWS" :D :D post in. I'd go on a bit, but it's not necessary.

[UMRS]

One of these days when I come down south to visit my brother and his family, Im going to take you and your wife out to dinner with me and mine. Semroc showed class through this entire thing.

I know you say your humbled by all this. I think youve earned the respect of this community as well through all the hard work you and your family have done with Semroc.

Now lets get back to selling some kits :)

[Blushingmule]

Yay!

It appears that it's working out for both parties. We are all most fortunate.

Bob

[mperdue]

Carl,

Thanks for the great news. It's good to know that Rick was on top of this and made things right with you. My opinion of Estes-Cox has been restored and I look forward to better things from them in the future.

Mario

[Carl@Semroc]

Joe Egan did.In the dark days of the BATF case, we were lucky to have him (and his faithful sidekick, Bunny.)

[Bill]

After a very enjoyable conversation with Rick Piester that we both agreed that probably should have been made much earlier, we are all satisfied that this has ended well.

On a personal note, the responses to this thread and the support shown has been both amazing and very humbling. I hope to be able to return the favor to all of you in the future. It really is better to have friends than money. It is good to be reminded of that occasionally.


That is wonderful news, Carl.

All I ask is that you live long and prosper. Uh, oh, now I've done it; there may be a C&D letter on the way to me from Paramount Studios...


Bill

[andrew scott]

Carl, this great news to see semroc will live long and prosper.

I can speak for all rocketeers in Australia it's good to see that we'll be buying more great semroc kits in years to come.


On a personal note, thank you all on forum for show support to Carl and semroc the responses to this thread and the support shown has been both amazing and deeply moving. :):):):):):):):)


Andrew Scott

[Eagle3]

Kudos to Carl and Rick in resolving this so quickly. Best of luck with the new relationship.

[Randy]

We are very glad to hear this! Congratulations to all parties.

We'll be looking forward to the releases of all those classic kits in the coming months and we'll be supporting Carl & Estes with our dollars.

Well done Rick.

Randy
www.vernarockets.com

[Bob Kaplow]

Great news. I'm sure you'll fill in the details shortly.

[GregGleason]

I never fly a scale model without the LES (Mercury Redstone/Saturn 1-B/Saturn - V); doesn't look good in flight.



Amen brother!

[Donaldsrockets]

Congrats on getting this resolved in a positive matter for both parties.

This has completely restored my faith in Estes/Cox/Hobbico and I look forward to getting a Saturn V myself.

I will also say Rick Piester is an individual with class since while all the negative posts concerning Estes/Hobbico were going on, he essentially dove head first into a shark tank to explain what was going on.

Again, a big congrats for everyone involved that made for a positive outcome.

[Carl@Semroc]

Great news. I'm sure you'll fill in the details shortly.
The fine details will be worked out over the next few days, but Rick's closing line has enough detail for us, "I look forward to finding ways that we can help each other and help create more model rocketeers and keep 'em flying."

I could not have said it better and it is the same way I feel about Estes and all our other fellow manufacturers, our vendors, and even more importantly, our friends that have stood by us.

[stickershock23]

Here to a good ending.. :D

[Jerry Irvine]

Here to a good ending.. :D
Happy ending? :rolleyes:

[sandman]

Carl, Great news!

I'll place an order as soon as my first Social Security check comes in!

[scsager]

Hip ! Yesterdays gloomy news replaced by todays sunshine and clear skies!
Hip ! My first post on this forum!
Hooray ! Just placed my order SA-23455

:) :) :)



... ok my second post here, but what the heck :)

[dwmzmm]

Great news Carl! And thanks to Rick for stepping in and trying to sort things out here. I'm looking forward to the announcements in the near future of how this partnership is going to play out.

And, Rocket Doctor, you haven't been forgotten either.....I hope I speak for all of us in saying we appreciate all what you have done for us while at Estes and since then......

[Earl]

The fine details will be worked out over the next few days, but Rick's closing line has enough detail for us, "I look forward to finding ways that we can help each other and help create more model rocketeers and keep 'em flying."

I could not have said it better and it is the same way I feel about Estes and all our other fellow manufacturers, our vendors, and even more importantly, our friends that have stood by us.

Carl,

To repeat what all others have said so far, this is truly VERY wonderful news for US, the customers, but I think many of us are just so very happy (and relieved!) for YOU and yours there at Semroc. Heck, it's good news for ALL!!

I know you probably can't say much about details as of yet, but at this point, do you see any true limitations in anything that you wanted or planned to do with Semroc as a result of your conversation with Rick? Your overall 'tone' sounds very positive (and that's a good thing), but I was just wondering (probably many of us are) if you see whether there is any business portion (kits, parts, etc.) of what you are doing now that will have to 'substantially' change, or will it be one of those "it's largely semantics, guys" (i.e., wording, labeling, etc.) that will change as a result of this new agreement?

Again, if you can't say that's fine. Obviously, we'll all be ears when you CAN announce the details of the final agreement, but 'till then, we'll just take this as a sign of very good news to come and celebrate with you what I hope is a big, huge pile of stress unloaded from your shoulders.

Congrats,

Earl

[Leo]

Carl, Rick.... you had me really worried there...

Our hobby is too much under scrutiny and the little resources available to work under are difficult. This goes for the model rocket industrie and us hobbyist.

Our hobby can't afford headlines!

I'm glade all parties are happy and I hope it will continue stay that way. Everybody can only benefit from this.

[Der Red Max]

Yes, very good news indeed but I can't help thinking how all this mudslinging could have been avoided if Carl had use his "contacts" to reach the proper folks and discuss this amicably rather than running straight to the forums and starting this fire!

But then again, maybe he wouldn't have benefited from all of this outpouring of $upport...

I'm just saying.

[mycrofte]

It is amazing what can be accomplished without lawyers! They should all be hanged.

While boycott may have sounded drastic it also let Carl and Estes / Hobbico know how we felt too! Makes me wonder how many phone calls and emails Estes might have gotten.

[mperdue]

It is amazing what can be accomplished without lawyers! They should all be hanged.
Why do scientists prefer lawyers to rats for their experiments?

1) Lawyers do more harm to society than rats.
2) Lab assistants are less likely to develop a bond or feel sympathy for lawyers.
3) Rats arouse more feelings of compassion and humanity.
4) Lawyers multiply faster.
5) Animal rights groups will not object to experimentation on lawyers.
6) There are some things that a rat won't do.

[AKPilot]

Carl is it possible to find out what Hobbico/Estes wanted from Semroc, in general?

[motley16]

This entire thing is crazy...sick. Let us move on. The hobby is at a great plce right about now. Let us enjoy the new products and @#$%^& the lawyers that screw up our lives.