auto company

[motley16]

:mad: :mad: How many billions are we gonna give these companys? They are bleading money and we just keep proping them up with more and more money. Give me a "bridge loan" my co is in the same boat as is everyone. Chapter 11 and reorganize sounds better to me. :mad:

[Solomoriah]

So we had this Republican president, and he signed this big spending bill to fix the economy; and then we got a Democrat president, and he signed a big spending bill to fix the economy.

What's the difference? Neither one will actually fix anything. The government CAN'T fix things.

... just had to get that off my chest ...

[Bob Kaplow]

What's the difference? Neither one will actually fix anything. The government CAN'T fix things.

The government *IS* the problem...

[tbzep]

Karl Marx is sitting up in his mausoleum grinning from ear to ear tonight.

[Solomoriah]

Actually, however misguided, Marx wanted the best for people. Most social reformers do... the problem is when what they think is best isn't what everyone else thinks is best.

Put a bunch of serious communists on an island by themselves, and they'll build a perfectly functional communist government that probably even works. Dump a load of libertarians on another island, and they'll make up a libertarian government that works for them. Likewise the socialists and so on. But when you mix together people of all different kinds... well, that's when it gets complicated. The more "pure" a government is, the harder it is to make it work for the heterogenous group, because the purer it is, the more citizens are left out.

[tbzep]

Actually, however misguided, Marx wanted the best for people. Most social reformers do... the problem is when what they think is best isn't what everyone else thinks is best.

Put a bunch of serious communists on an island by themselves, and they'll build a perfectly functional communist government that probably even works. Dump a load of libertarians on another island, and they'll make up a libertarian government that works for them. Likewise the socialists and so on. But when you mix together people of all different kinds... well, that's when it gets complicated. The more "pure" a government is, the harder it is to make it work for the heterogenous group, because the purer it is, the more citizens are left out.

He's still grinning. However, a few years from now he'll be crying after he sees that this twisted version of socialism finished wrecking the greatest country in history.

[luke strawwalker]

He's still grinning. However, a few years from now he'll be crying after he sees that this twisted version of socialism finished wrecking the greatest country in history.


Yep... OL JR

[Nuke Rocketeer]

So we had this Republican president, and he signed this big spending bill to fix the economy; and then we got a Democrat president, and he signed a big spending bill to fix the economy.

What's the difference? Neither one will actually fix anything. The government CAN'T fix things.

... just had to get that off my chest ...

A repeat of the crap from 1929-1933 where Hoover tried massive government intervention to ameriolate the 1929 crash and made things worse and Roosevelt came in and did even more and made the economic crisis almost permanent. If it had not been for WW2 creating confidence again, it would have been a permanent crisis.

[tbzep]

A repeat of the crap from 1929-1933 where Hoover tried massive government intervention to ameriolate the 1929 crash and made things worse and Roosevelt came in and did even more and made the economic crisis almost permanent. If it had not been for WW2 creating confidence again, it would have been a permanent crisis.

It didn't just create confidence, it created jobs for almost everyone. Even those who weren't employed somewhere had victory gardens.

The interesting thing is that products were rationed, so there wasn't much individual spending during the war. Most people saved what they earned instead of spending yet the depression still fizzled away during the war. That's the opposite of what they say we need to do now.

After the war, people were able to take that saved money and pay cash for things they would have either done without, or got loans for. What a concept...saving until you could afford something. :cool:

[ghrocketman]

Quite frankly I will support whomever will do EVERYTHING, ANYTHING, and WHATEVER it takes to make the US-owned auto industry recover. These companies are getting LOANS, not the hundreds of billion $$$ in HANDOUTS the crooks on Wall Street and Banking companies are getting. Those entities were RIPOFF artists, producing NOTHING. The auto companies produce viable goods and living-wage REAL jobs.
The US Auto Industry directly impacts one in ten jobs in the USA with more indirectly.
It AMAZES me to think there are actually people that think it makes US economic sense to NOT support these industries !
How badly do you really want to transition our national economy from recession to full-blown depression the likes of which have not been seen since the 1930's ?
The implications to national security alone regarding the manufacturing base are reason enough to keep GM, Ford, and Chrysler viable should the need arise for war production.

[motley16]

How much coin are we gonna throw at the auto problem? Obama has his way there is no limit. The auto people know it. Bust the lazy union people. Work hard for less like the rest of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[lurker01]

:mad: :mad: How many billions are we gonna give these companys? They are bleading money and we just keep proping them up with more and more money. Give me a "bridge loan" my co is in the same boat as is everyone. Chapter 11 and reorganize sounds better to me. :mad:


Well you might want to hedge your bet by betting AGAINST America:

Buy and invest in Gold. They are saying Gold at over $2200 an Oz. is VERY possible now that the dollar has been deflated to worthless. Also, many nations are getting off the dollar and moving either to Euros or the international Gold standard.

Also, one could start currency trading. Trading AGAINST the dollar is a SLAMMMMMMM DUNK! now that we are a socialist nation. The once powerful juggernaut know as the American Greenback is no more ... long live the Green :) In the last year (2008) the Federal Reserve has printed and place into circulation MORE, again MORE dollars than what was printed from 1929 - 2007. Do you even care? Sad.

Seriously, we haven't seen anything yet! The United States of America is bankrupt financially, morally, and spiritually. Its just a matter of time till a riot comes to a neighborhood near you :(

The military already is in training for URBAN PACIFICATION operations right here in the good ole U S of A... I have already posted the links and I am not going to repeat myself.

OH and for those of you who are condemned to repeat history because you forget it, the U.S. Criminal Government has fired upon and killed U.S. Citizens in the past; and no I am not talking Kent State... nope, the U.S. CRIMINAL Government had slaughtered World War I veterans who were protesting their lack of pay and benefits. Let me provide the link, because I am sure there are those of you who feel I am just making this up like all the other things I post about, hold a sec...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

only 1,021 casualties ... a pittance when compared to IRAQ; right?!

And there are the death marches of Native Americans, the syphilis experiments done upon African Americans down in Tuskegee Georgia ... oh my better provide a url on that one too in case some might say I am just making that up too ... hold a second...

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

And the rest. Yep what a great nation we have ... I often wonder if when the Cockroaches inherit the Earth, will they write great plays based on our history?! Well just food for thought.

Buy gold, buy Euros and in the end I think you will do well for yourself.

Bob

[Rocketflyer]

Quite frankly I will support whomever will do EVERYTHING, ANYTHING, and WHATEVER it takes to make the US-owned auto industry recover. These companies are getting LOANS, not the hundreds of billion $$$ in HANDOUTS the crooks on Wall Street and Banking companies are getting. Those entities were RIPOFF artists, producing NOTHING. The auto companies produce viable goods and living-wage REAL jobs.
The US Auto Industry directly impacts one in ten jobs in the USA with more indirectly.
It AMAZES me to think there are actually people that think it makes US economic sense to NOT support these industries !
How badly do you really want to transition our national economy from recession to full-blown depression the likes of which have not been seen since the 1930's ?
The implications to national security alone regarding the manufacturing base are reason enough to keep GM, Ford, and Chrysler viable should the need arise for war production.


Ahhhh, GH, the freaking LOANS are coming from CHINA, and the "world bank" Where did you think the money is coming from, our 'treasury? the fed reserve? Nope, we, as a country, are BROKE, busted.

[motley16]

Ahhhh, GH, the freaking LOANS are coming from CHINA, and the "world bank" Where did you think the money is coming from, our 'treasury? the fed reserve? Nope, we, as a country, are BROKE, busted.
Just my point china owns all our butts wake up people

[Mikus]

Just my point china owns all our butts wake up people

So stop buying Chinese made goods, if you can.

[tbzep]

So stop buying Chinese made goods, if you can.

Only the Amish/Mennonites could handle that. All the rest will die of shock when they realize almost everything is made there, or has components made there. :rolleyes:

[motley16]

Almost everything is made in china. That is part of the problem. Try to buy all american, you cant. Look at the labels of what you are wearing bet none of it is american made. Cina owns all of us, face it :mad:

[Mikus]

And why is that, because China has an oppressive government that ensures the availability of cheaper labor keeping American companies farming out their work to keep costs lower so CEO's can make their $10 million bonuses?

Let's not even speak of how they cut corners so badly that they use lead paint and other poisons in the products intended for US to buy and use. Not them to buy and use, US.

So how do you stop that? How about a big old import tariff on any product made in China? Make it so that it's not so lucrative to import products from China anymore, maybe find a supplier in the States. You know, keep american dollars IN America.

But noooooo, messing with runaway big business is un-American and socialist.... :eek:

LOL, you can't have it both ways. :chuckle:

[motley16]

So you want to start a trade war? This issue should have been delt with 25 years ago. I think we are well past an easy fix. :mad:

[Mikus]

So you want to start a trade war? This issue should have been delt with 25 years ago. I think we are well past an easy fix. :mad:

Well I'm not sure that I would call it a "Trade War" any more than a baby Harp Seal would call what happens to them a war. It would seem to me that China sells us finished products and we sell China the raw materials and machinery to make those finished products. I would easily agree with the latter two statements however. :(



I realize these numbers are a tad bit old, but you tell me if you think the trade deficit with China has gotten better or worse.... :rolleyes:

Most Popular Products Traded Between China & America (http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm/top_chinese_exports_imports)


China exported US$287.8 billion worth of merchandise to the United States in 2006, up 18.2% from 2005 and up an impressive 130% in just 4 years. America is the number one trading partner for China's exports.

Chinese imports from the U.S. rose 31.7% to $55.2 billion in 2006 and up an even more impressive 150% since 2002.

In terms of the merchandise flow between the two countries, America’s trade deficit with China was $232.5 billion in 2006, up 125% from 2002. The U.S. trade deficit with China increased 15.4% in 2006 – significantly down from the 24.5% deficit increase in 2005 from the year earlier.

China Exports to U.S.

Of the $287.8 billion in American imports from China in 2006, the following product categories had the highest values.

Computer accessories, peripherals and parts …US$28.9 billion (10.1% of China to U.S. exports, up 12.4% from 2005)
Miscellaneous household goods (e.g. clocks) … $26.5 billion (9.2%, up 17.2%)
Toys & sporting goods (e.g. bicycles) … $22.2 billion (7.7%, up 10.2%)
Computers … $17.4 billion (6%, up 20.2%)
Non-cotton household furnishings & clothing … $14.6 billion (5.1%, up 11.3%)
Video equipment (e.g. DVD players) … $14.5 billion (5.0%, up 34.9%)
Household furniture … $13.2 billion (4.6%, up 14.3%)
Footwear ... $10.7 billion (3.7%, up 11.1%)
Cotton household furnishings & clothing … $9.9 billion (3.4%, up 29.6%)
Telecommunications equipment … $8.3 billion (3.0%, up 23.7%)


China Imports from U.S.

Of the $55.2 billion in American exports to China in 2006, the following product categories had the highest values.

Semi-conductors … US$5.9 billion (10.6% of China from U.S. imports, up 74.7% from 2005)
Civilian aircraft … $5.3 billion (9.6%, up 39.7%)
Soybeans … $2.5 billion (4.6%, up 12.5%)
Plastics …. $2.2 billion (3.9%, up 18.8%)
Raw cotton … $2.1 billion (3.7%, up 47%)
Industrial machines … $1.97 billion (3.6%, up 29%)
Copper … $1.86 billion (3.4%, up 99.7%)
Computer accessories … $1.82 billion (3.3%, up 27.5%)
Aluminum … $1.7 billion (3.1%, up 90.3%)
Steelmaking material … $1.69 billion (3.1%, up 11.9%)

[Rocketflyer]

So you want to start a trade war? This issue should have been delt with 25 years ago. I think we are well past an easy fix. :mad:

China has already "warned" the world (read US ), about a trade war. If we impose limits on them don't think for a moment they won't call in those loans. We have been borowing from them for the last 15yrs.+. See when they became "perferred trading partners," and you'll know who started the mess. :mad:

[Intruder]

How much coin are we gonna throw at the auto problem? Obama has his way there is no limit. The auto people know it. Bust the lazy union people. Work hard for less like the rest of us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See. There's the problem. It's not so much how much the plant workers make (although they do make a pretty penny), but the BENEFITS they are entitled to. Now let's assume that plant workers work 40 weeks for 40 hours. Plant workers make almost $30 per hour, which is about $45,000 a year. While that is a pretty good amount of money, it's not totally insane. However, their benefits (retirement, compensation, etc.) more than double their salaries, pushing their earnings to $70 (over $110,000 annually)! And (unfortunately) it gets even worse. The Big Three auto-companies are forced to pay laid off workers 95% of their previous salaries. That's right, they pay people who don't even work for them. Because of this, they can't shut down plants that are loosing money because they would have to pay the workers anyway. It's a loose-loose situation.

[Bob Kaplow]

See. There's the problem. It's not so much how much the plant workers make (although they do make a pretty penny), but the BENEFITS they are entitled to. Now let's assume that plant workers work 40 weeks for 40 hours. Plant workers make almost $30 per hour, which is about $45,000 a year. While that is a pretty good amount of money, it's not totally insane. However, their benefits (retirement, compensation, etc.) more than double their salaries, pushing their earnings to $70 (over $110,000 annually)! And (unfortunately) it gets even worse. The Big Three auto-companies are forced to pay laid off workers 95% of their previous salaries. That's right, they pay people who don't even work for them. Because of this, they can't shut down plants that are loosing money because they would have to pay the workers anyway. It's a loose-loose situation.

I wish I got that kind of pension and unemployment benefits...

Instead my tax money is going to bail out those that do. It's not just the CEOs that get the nice paychecks from these failing companies.

[luke strawwalker]

Well you might want to hedge your bet by betting AGAINST America:

Buy and invest in Gold. They are saying Gold at over $2200 an Oz. is VERY possible now that the dollar has been deflated to worthless. Also, many nations are getting off the dollar and moving either to Euros or the international Gold standard.

Also, one could start currency trading. Trading AGAINST the dollar is a SLAMMMMMMM DUNK! now that we are a socialist nation. The once powerful juggernaut know as the American Greenback is no more ... long live the Green :) In the last year (2008) the Federal Reserve has printed and place into circulation MORE, again MORE dollars than what was printed from 1929 - 2007. Do you even care? Sad.

Seriously, we haven't seen anything yet! The United States of America is bankrupt financially, morally, and spiritually. Its just a matter of time till a riot comes to a neighborhood near you :(

The military already is in training for URBAN PACIFICATION operations right here in the good ole U S of A... I have already posted the links and I am not going to repeat myself.

OH and for those of you who are condemned to repeat history because you forget it, the U.S. Criminal Government has fired upon and killed U.S. Citizens in the past; and no I am not talking Kent State... nope, the U.S. CRIMINAL Government had slaughtered World War I veterans who were protesting their lack of pay and benefits. Let me provide the link, because I am sure there are those of you who feel I am just making this up like all the other things I post about, hold a sec...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

only 1,021 casualties ... a pittance when compared to IRAQ; right?!

And there are the death marches of Native Americans, the syphilis experiments done upon African Americans down in Tuskegee Georgia ... oh my better provide a url on that one too in case some might say I am just making that up too ... hold a second...

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0762136.html

And the rest. Yep what a great nation we have ... I often wonder if when the Cockroaches inherit the Earth, will they write great plays based on our history?! Well just food for thought.

Buy gold, buy Euros and in the end I think you will do well for yourself.

Bob

Don't forget the government's experiments on US citizens from the late 40's to the 70's, exposing civilian hospital patients and military personnel to everything from neutron radiation (which can have HORRIFIC consequences) to injections of plutonium to calibrate cancer rate charts for fallout exposure after a nuclear war, to giving unknowing pregnant women radionuclide 'fizzes' to drink in an experiment conducted at Vanderbilt University Hospital in Nashville to measure radiation induced mutations in unborn children and radionuclide transferrence across the placental barrier, and measure health affects of the afflicted children and mothers throughout their lives...

All without their knowledge or permission...

I thought we fought a war and had war crimes trials for guys like Joseph Mengele, who performed hideous experiments on Jews in concentration camps...

Oh, I forgot... this is DIFFERENT when its OUR government doing it... just like torture...

And of course it's different if we can get the Japanese head biological weapons scientist who was experimenting on Chinese and Allied POW's in Unit 731... even conducting vivesections (autopsies) on living people... and of course there are areas in China still contaminated by biological weapons test firings conducted during World War II by Japan on the Chinese population... But since he brought his research and went to work for Uncle Sam, no war crimes trial for his hideous works... Nope, he became a head honcho in our own biological weapons program during the Cold War...

Google it... all history... OL JR :)

[luke strawwalker]

So stop buying Chinese made goods, if you can.

Hey Mikus, did I ever tell you this story??

I went to the local welding shop in town and bought a 4x8 foot 1/4 inch steel plate to fix a shredder here on the farm that the deck had rusted out on. They loaded it in my truck and when I got home I flipped it off the truck myself onto some wheel rims so I could measure and cut out the repair panels I needed for the shredder. Well, I was shocked and amazed when I got the sheet flipped off the truck, because stenciled across the middle were the words, "Made in KHAZAKSTAN".

Now, when it's cheaper to haul steel 2000 miles or more across the former Soviet Central Asia to ports in China or Russia, either the Baltic or Vladivostock on the Pacific, since Khazakstan is landlocked (unless you count the Aral Sea which is landlocked and drying up due to overpumping for irrigated cotton farming) than it is to buy US steel made in Pennsylvania, Alabama, or Texas, something is BAD WRONG...

I'm sure we'll be able to import LOTS of steel from Khazakstan in the next big war... and since almost all our scrap steel is being sold to China now, since the EPA has cracked down on carbon emissions from steel smelters and coke (coal coke, not sodawater) production for steel smelting, I'm sure the Chinese will happily sell us steel to build warships should we ever have to fight them, or their North Korean buddies...

Things just keep getting better... It'd be funny if it weren't so serious... but the time to do something about it was ten years ago at least... probably like 20.

"Excellent work, Mr. Scott... you fix the barn door after the horses come home." -Capt. Kirk, on the return from the Genesis planet after Spock's death...

Yall have a good one... I'm going to fiddle (with rockets) while Rome burns... again... OL JR :)