Since Estes appears to be up for sale, and BT has decided to speak, I thought I would bring up the question of the future of Estes Industries, specifically what they might do in the area of future model rocket engines.

Estes-Cox Corp has a patent application for a Vulcanite EB-75 propellant.

It's basically just another composite propellant but instead of AP it uses KCIO4.
Whats unique about this propellant is, that instead of its being cast as APCP is, its a dry poder that can be pressed with the current Mabel's and it uses simple clay nozzles and paper cases just like the current BP model rocket engines are.

In one example given in the Patent App is that 7.5g of this propellant would give a full C; thats means the following:

A 1,875g
B 3.75g
C 7.5g
D 15g
E 30g
F 60 g


I think the significance of using this propellant over its BP is that they could use their Mabels' to make 60g 80 nt-sec F engines... ir they could mass produce them..... They also could make full D and E motors.

Under current USPS regulations a full E could be mailed.

If Estes so decided to, they could also release a reloadable motor using these propellants.

Which leads me to ask this question to the rocketry community:

Estes has basically two markets:

the Mass Market and the Hobbyist Market which I will call: the kidz market and the adult market.

Isn't it about time for Estes, no mater who ends up buying it, into trying to develop two different product lines: one for the kidz mass market and one for the Adults Hobbyists...


Is it impossible for a single company to develop products for two completely differing markets?



what do you think?


terry dean

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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.

Didn't they try this "experiment" once before with their North Coast and Dark Star lines.
Obviously (and unfortunately for us), it didn't pan out.
They should've left it in Matt Steele's hands.

I think That NIH- Not Invented Here syndrome existed as far as Estes/NCR was concerned plus
trying to merge the BT Estes Corporate culture with the entrepreneur culture of NCR i think never really succeeded. I'm also sure there's more to it than just that.

EB75 technology is a completely new way to mass produce composite model rocket motors... across the entire range of A-f products.


terry dean

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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.

I doubt it was anything like clashing cultures. It's just a fact of the matter that NCR was a comparatively low volume business, with some hurdles like HAZMAT shipping, FAA notification for customers, larger packages for retailers, and not to mention that fields to fly F and G motor rockets are hard to find in the populous areas of the country where Estes sells the most. Estes probably decided that such a business wasn't worth the trouble.

Do you think Aerotech could survive if their business were just the mid power model rocket line and D-G motors?

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Roy
nar12605

I agree there were a multitude of issues concerning NCR/Estes...

I think that if Estes went with EB75 technology they would capture the 1/4A-F model rocket market and I think this could pose a serious challenge to AT D-F motors. There would surely be some pricing pressure. If Estes used Mabel's with EB75 then they could surely make more composite motors cheaper than AT can with what I assume is their semi-automated manufacturing process.

SO the question as I see it is : could At survive with only the HPR market and I think that answer is yes. Does this answer your ??

EB76 technology would allow for Full E's that could be shipped via USPS> Only their F would require Ground Fedex + hazmat. I think the new Quest F's will have this sme shipping surcharge attached.

Maybe they should not mass merchandise there larger motors and modle rocket products. What I am suggesting is that they use EB75 tech for their traditional Kidz market 1/4A-CD..... for larger products and engines, make it a mail-order only business. I wouldn't place the advanced adult products on shelves... they would be sold via online retailers only.

terry dean

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"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.

I wonder what kind of shelf life EB75 propellant would have. We know that BP motors will keep a long time as long as they are stored decently.

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I love sanding.

Terry,

I read through the patent application that you linked to for Vulcanite EB75, and, based on the parts of it that I was actually able to understand, this propellant does sound very interesting. It has a specific impulse that falls between black powder and APCP, but actually closer to the latter.

Apparently a motor maker could also press EB75 into grains that could be packaged as reload kits for a line of reloadable motors. The stuff sounds like it doesn't have anything like the fragility of BP grains.

As for shelf life, it seems to do as well or better than BP. I don't recall of the document mentioned anything about thermal cycling, though, but I would not be surprised if it turns out that this is not an issue with EB75.

I'm actually surprised that they haven't produced any motors yet with this propellant. The patent is only two years old, though. Great find, guy. I hadn't heard anything about it until you mentioned it yesterday. It would be a great question for Barry Tunick's Q and A next Monday.

MarkII

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SAM # 0011

Terry,
My question about Aerotech was rhetorical. The point was that even if Aerotech could squeak by in that market, that same market might be too small for Estes to bother with.

While EB75 is interesting, I don't think it changes the game that much. The problem is not can we get more power for a given size -- at least that's not the primary problem right now. The primary problem is "where can I, john Q Public, fly these things where I don't lose them on the first flight?"

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Roy
nar12605

You can fly a big motor on a smaller field if you match it with the right rocket.

There are limits to this, of course, but if you adjust your expectations regarding altitudes, etc., you can fly an E or even an F on a ballfield. (You can also fly a 29mm or 38mm saucer with a hobby-level motor just about anywhere that is large enough to provide the required stand-off distances.) A 3" or 4" diameter rocket, even a short one, looks impressive sitting on the pad and lifting off from a small field, even if it only goes up 400 or 500 feet. And if it is powered by a motor that takes of with a loud roar and a lot of smoke and fire, then it is even better.

MarkII

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SAM # 0011

I can, for sure. Don't know about you. But the newbie who picks up a rocket at Wallyworld and grabs whatever motors are on the shelf?? I doubt it. Most newbies have little conception of how powerful these little things are.

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Roy
nar12605