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  #11  
Old 02-22-2019, 11:44 AM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teflonrocketry1
Having smelled many of the pure compounds that make up RP-1, and being an organic chemist that can identify many compounds by their just their odor (ask Wolf he was in my graduate lab that housed thousands of organic compounds), RP-1 should have a parrafinic (waxy) to a slightly ethereal odor much like that of pure lamp oil or other highly purified kerosene.
So lamp oil cold be used for small use applications.

One of the key advantages to a non-recripocal engine is the phase where the fuel "explodes" varies with brissancy with formula, but the unusual lag time by the eliptical reverse diamond cavity gives unusually long event time. That's why less awesome fuels like diesel work in a rotary as well as AvGas or Jet-A.

I once ran out of gas at LUCERNE AND SIPHONED FUEL FROM AN AIRPLANE. OMG! Based on his .sig GH would have loved it.

Just by using AvGas one could make the engine 30% smaller and more than 30% lighter!

Just Jerry
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  #12  
Old 02-22-2019, 11:47 AM
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Naptha does not smell anything like Napthalene moth balls.
Naptha smells like Zippo lighter fluid...it reeks.

I'd mix in some Skatole, Cadaverine, or Putrescine in with the RP-1.
THAT would make a burn aroma to REMEMBER !!
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Last edited by ghrocketman : 02-22-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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  #13  
Old 02-22-2019, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Naptha does not smell anything like Napthalene moth balls.
Naptha smells like Zippo lighter fluid...it reeks.

I'd mix in some Skatole, Cadaverine, or Putrescine in with the RP-1.
THAT would make a burn aroma to REMEMBER !!


GH

I have done some research work with Cadaverine and Putrescine and would like to inform you that these compounds have only a very slight ammonia or fishy odor despite their names.

A mixture of Skatole, P-Cresol and Beta mercaptoethanol gives and overpowering poop smell. Natural gas is scented with t-butyl mercaptan, which is a very potent stinky thiol. I had a sealed bottle in my lab and I kept thinking there was a gas leak until I moved the bottle into a fume hood.

Naptha smells the way it does from the minor components and impurities like olefins (double bond containing) and thiols (sulfur compounds) it contains. These minor components are prone to decompose and polymerize with heating, making Naptha and Kerosine unsuitable for a regeneratively cooled rocket engine.
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  #14  
Old 02-22-2019, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teflonrocketry1
A mixture of Skatole, P-Cresol and Beta mercaptoethanol gives and overpowering poop smell. Natural gas is scented with t-butyl mercaptan, which is a very potent stinky thiol.

I learned just how badly some mercaptans can smell in that lab.
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  #15  
Old 02-22-2019, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teflonrocketry1
RP-1 should have a parrafinic (waxy) to a slightly ethereal odor much like that of pure lamp oil or other highly purified kerosene.

Yummy! As for cadaverine and putricine, I've had to bag some ripe bodies over the years and I'm not fond of that at all.
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  #16  
Old 02-22-2019, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teflonrocketry1
GH

I have done some research work with Cadaverine and Putrescine and would like to inform you that these compounds have only a very slight ammonia or fishy odor despite their names.

A mixture of Skatole, P-Cresol and Beta mercaptoethanol gives and overpowering poop smell. Natural gas is scented with t-butyl mercaptan, which is a very potent stinky thiol. I had a sealed bottle in my lab and I kept thinking there was a gas leak until I moved the bottle into a fume hood.

Naptha smells the way it does from the minor components and impurities like olefins (double bond containing) and thiols (sulfur compounds) it contains. These minor components are prone to decompose and polymerize with heating, making Naptha and Kerosine unsuitable for a regeneratively cooled rocket engine.
I agree--the (apparently, based on its two transliterated names) naptha-containing fuel that the Russians are pursuing using isn't kerosene, but cyclopropane, which should leave much less coke-type residue (the X-15, in its "big engine"--the XLR-99--used pure anhydrous ammonia burned with LOX for that reason). The Russian cyclopropane fuel, as is often done with hydrazine (such as UDMH, Unsymmetrical Di-Methyl Hydrazine), also has other "radical" molecular fragments bonded onto its available bonding points, to increase the fuel's energy per unit mass.
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  #17  
Old 02-23-2019, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
So lamp oil cold be used for small use applications.

One of the key advantages to a non-recripocal engine is the phase where the fuel "explodes" varies with brissancy with formula, but the unusual lag time by the eliptical reverse diamond cavity gives unusually long event time. That's why less awesome fuels like diesel work in a rotary as well as AvGas or Jet-A.

I once ran out of gas at LUCERNE AND SIPHONED FUEL FROM AN AIRPLANE. OMG! Based on his .sig GH would have loved it.

Just by using AvGas one could make the engine 30% smaller and more than 30% lighter!

Just Jerry
I would think so (that lamp oil could be used; also, the British referred to their rockets' kerosene fuel as paraffin), because JP-4 jet fuel (which was more wont to "coke-up" in a rocket engine than the more highly-refined, lower-sulfur RP-1) was used in at least two rocket applications:

The very early Thor-Agena A (and maybe Atlas-Agena A) satellite launch vehicles used a close derivative (Bell Model 8001, USAF designation XLR81-BA-3, with gimbal capability added, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XLR81#Versions ) of the original XLR81 Hustler rocket engine (which was developed for the cancelled, rocket-propelled bomb pod for the B-58 Hustler jet bomber). Like the original XLR81, the XLR81-BA-3 burned JP-4 jet fuel and RFNA (Red Fuming Nitric Acid) oxidizer; in fact, the Thor-Agena A was also called the Thor-Hustler because the second stage used the Hustler engine. Also:

The NF-104A (a modified F-104A Starfighter, fitted with extended wingtips [due to its greater weight] and attitude control thrusters, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_NF-104A ) had a self-contained rocket "pack," housed in a faired and rearward-protruding nacelle, which was mounted at the base of the aircraft's vertical stabilizer, just above the J-79 turbojet engine's tailpipe. The rocket pack consisted of a Rocketdyne AR2-3 rocket engine that burned JP-4 jet fuel and hydrogen peroxide, along with JP-4 and H2O2 tanks. Three NF-104As were made, one of which was involved in Chuck Yeager's horrific--due to severe facial and hand burns, from his ejection seat's still-burning rocket propellant "lava"--1963 accident that was chronicled in the book and film, "The Right Stuff." As well:

The Wankel rotary engine could, due to its lack of "fussyness" with regard to the fuels it can run on, find a place in both full-scale ducted fan--motorjet--aircraft (engineers have looked favorably at diesel-powered small motorjet commuter planes), and in flyback boosters for small launch vehicles (using either motorjet or folding-blade propeller propulsion). An Australian group has been working on a strap-on, "scissors-wing" booster, which would use a nose mounted, folding-blade propeller for the post-boost, flyback (or downrange landing, if desired) portion of flight (ESA's proposed flyback, separable, reusable first stage rocket engines module [with a swept, tailless flying wing planform] also has two "pusher" propellers, powered by turboprop engines). Wankel rotary-powered flyback boosters or rocket engine(s) modules--whether using motorjet or propeller atmospheric propulsion--could use the residual rocket fuel to power the rotary engine(s).
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  #18  
Old 02-23-2019, 10:36 AM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
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Estes used to make a folding prop electric plane.
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  #19  
Old 02-23-2019, 10:42 AM
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I have an OS-Graupner 49-PI Wankel R/C engine that I fly quite regularly.
It's displacement is only .30 cubic inches, but makes the power of a good .40 to .45 cubic inch 2-stroke engine.
It however has one huge problem. Despite having only .30 displacement, it burns at least as much fuel as my tuned-pipe equipped pattern .61's and does not have nearly the power.
Neat engine, but huge fuel waster.
It doesn't run/idle worth a hoot with less than 15% nitro fuel, and prefers 20%.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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  #20  
Old 02-24-2019, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
Estes used to make a folding prop electric plane.
I vaguely recall that. Now, of course, electric motorgliders (model and full-size) commonly use nose-mounted, tractor-propulsion electric motor/folding propeller (usually two-bladed) systems. There are also a few single-bladed (with opposing counterweight) full-scale--and possibly also model--gas and electric pusher systems, in which the motor/prop unit is frequently dorsally-mounted and deployable from inside the fuselage, retracting after engine/motor shutoff for soaring, and:

Rearward-folding, two-bladed (and occasionally, three-bladed) pusher propellers are also sometimes seen, on fixed and deployable, aerodynamically-faired electric motor or gas engine pods. Reusable, deployable (folding) or scissors-wing equipped boosters could use any of these atmospheric flight systems, depending on their sizes and configurations.
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