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  #11  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:00 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mwtoelle
Does anyone have the lengths of the body tubes in the kit? I know that it uses ST-13 tubing.
Not directly, but going by its 26.3" overall length (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...-2/782cen6.html ), and the 28.0" long Enerjet 1340 Sounding Rocket's component dimensions (given on page 2 here: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerj...340/enj1340.pdf [its main body tube was 13" long, and its payload tube was 8" long]), it should be possible to derive them. One difference between the two was that the 1340 Sounding Rocket used quite large, high-impulse Enerjet motors, and the length of the protruding rear portion of the motor counted as part of the 28.0" length. What was the typical "protrusion length" for these motors? (For 13 mm motors, it's 1/4", and for 18 mm motors, it's 1/2".) *ALSO*:

This picture of the "bulbous payload section" 1340/20 (see: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerj.../enj1340-20.pdf [its main body tube--to the rear edge of the fin unit, the drawing seems to show--was 12.0" long]) shows the protruding motor pretty well; it looks like it's protruding 1" or so behind the rear edge of the fin unit (there's also a short length of motor tube, or body tube, just behind the rear edge of the fin unit). Here (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca.../72ejetcat.html ) is the 1972 Enerjet catalog, which shows the big motors the 1340 Sounding Rockets used.
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Last edited by blackshire : 06-12-2018 at 04:40 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:15 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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In addition to the Centuri Phoenix Bird (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/79cen010.html ) and the Enerjet 1340 Sounding Rocket (see: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerj...340/enj1340.pdf ), the Estes Discovery (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...6/86estcov.html and http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...87/87est10.html ) and the Estes Challenger II (a 24.25" long, "D"-powered launch vehicle for the AstroCam 110, although it came with the regular BT-56 nose cone, see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...84/84est54.html ) also used the Phoenix Bird/1340 Sounding Rocket plastic fin unit and nose cone. I don't think (although I'm not 100% sure, having never had them) the Discovery and the Challenger II had payload sections, but simply ejected their nose cones, to which their parachutes and shock cords were tied.
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  #13  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:39 PM
BARGeezer BARGeezer is offline
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Gee, guess I had an upscale Enerjet 1340 without realizing it. Will look into resizing and repainting my Eliminator XL bird. Or maybe Phoenix Bird XL?
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  #14  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BARGeezer
Gee, guess I had an upscale Enerjet 1340 without realizing it. Will look into resizing and repainting my Eliminator XL bird. Or maybe Phoenix Bird XL?
Stick a delta wing on it rather far back, and you've got a "*very* freely interpreted" Pegasus XL ( http://www.google.com/search?q=pega...iw=1440&bih=794 )... :-)
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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  #15  
Old 06-12-2018, 04:46 PM
BARGeezer BARGeezer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Not directly, but going by its 26.3" overall length (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...-2/782cen6.html ), and the 28.0" long Enerjet 1340 Sounding Rocket's component dimensions (given on page 2 here: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerj...340/enj1340.pdf [its main body tube was 13" long, and its payload tube was 8" long]), it should be possible to derive them. One difference between the two was that the 1340 Sounding Rocket used quite large, high-impulse Enerjet motors, and the length of the protruding rear portion of the motor counted as part of the 28.0" length. What was the typical "protrusion length" for these motors? (For 13 mm motors, it's 1/4", and for 18 mm motors, it's 1/2".) *ALSO*:

This picture of the "bulbous payload section" 1340/20 (see: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/enerj.../enj1340-20.pdf [its main body tube--to the rear edge of the fin unit, the drawing seems to show--was 12.0" long]) shows the protruding motor pretty well; it looks like it's protruding 1" or so behind the rear edge of the fin unit (there's also a short length of motor tube, or body tube, just behind the rear edge of the fin unit). Here (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca.../72ejetcat.html ) is the 1972 Enerjet catalog, which shows the big motors the 1340 Sounding Rockets used.


By process of elimination, the length that the motor tube protrudes is .6" ( Overall length minus nose cone length, minus payload tube and main body tube with fin can length, minus coupler length). I have doubts that an Estes E2X rocket can handle a 24 or 29mm composite propellant motor, however.
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  #16  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:00 PM
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Earl Earl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Hello All,

Last night I was looking up documentation on the Centuri Phoenix Bird (*not* the Estes re-issue) and its higher-powered sister, the Enerjet 1340 Sounding Rocket. The Estes Eliminator kit contains all of the Phoenix Bird's airframe parts except one--the plastic tubing connector, which was a molded plastic component. It was a cylinder with blunt conical front and rear ends (which fit inside the body tube and the payload section tube; the rear cone had [I think] a molded-on loop, not necessarily circular, to which the parachute and the shock cord were tied, and:

When the rocket was fitted together for flight (or display), the only portion of the plastic tubing coupler that was visible was a short section in its middle, which was the same diameter as the 1.34" O.D. body and payload tubes (Centuri #13 and Estes BT-56 designations). Does anyone have the dimensions of this #13 tubing coupler (particularly the length of the exposed "ring section" that matches the body tube diameter)? Re-creating this part would enable the Estes Eliminator to be converted to a Centuri Phoenix Bird or Enerjet 1340 Sounding Rocket clone.

Many thanks to anyone who can help!


Jason-

I glanced through the thread somewhat quickly (and possibly you've already noted it), but the 1340 used heavy walled tubing that was thicker than the standard Centuri ST-13 tubing (Semroc/eRockets would have it). The 29mm motor mount tube (also heavy walled) is a "glove fit" inside that tubing.

The O.D. of this heavy walled ST-13 tubing is the same as the regular ST-13 tubing, but because it used a thicker tube, the nosecone was different than that used in the Phoenix Bird, Eliminator and other kits that made use of that similar looking plastic cone. I think the cone profile was the same; what was different is the 'shoulder' had a smaller O.D. to account for the thicker tube wall.

That said, the nosecone and fin unit from an Estes Eliminator can be used to make a nice clone...it just won't be as 'beefy' as the original 1340. The fin unit is the same between all kits that have used it off and on now for 46 years. It holds up well under F power from what I understand, but I think Jerry Irvine has reported fin flutter/fin breakage under G power.

Earl
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  #17  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:08 PM
BARGeezer BARGeezer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Stick a delta wing on it rather far back, and you've got a "*very* freely interpreted" Pegasus XL ( http://www.google.com/search?q=pega...iw=1440&bih=794 )... :-)


Funny you should mention that. Just received Frank Burke's Pegasus X R/C rocket glider kit.

https://dynasoarrocketry.com/?page_id=1640

Would have loved to build the TMRK Pegasus kit, but they went defunct, plus it's a tad out of my budget ( Okay, more than a tad).

http://tmrk.rocketshoppe.com/pegasus.htm


Looked into cloning it, but the wing to body transitions look very difficult.
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  #18  
Old 06-12-2018, 05:58 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl
Jason-

I glanced through the thread somewhat quickly (and possibly you've already noted it), but the 1340 used heavy walled tubing that was thicker than the standard Centuri ST-13 tubing (Semroc/eRockets would have it). The 29mm motor mount tube (also heavy walled) is a "glove fit" inside that tubing.

The O.D. of this heavy walled ST-13 tubing is the same as the regular ST-13 tubing, but because it used a thicker tube, the nosecone was different than that used in the Phoenix Bird, Eliminator and other kits that made use of that similar looking plastic cone. I think the cone profile was the same; what was different is the 'shoulder' had a smaller O.D. to account for the thicker tube wall.

That said, the nosecone and fin unit from an Estes Eliminator can be used to make a nice clone...it just won't be as 'beefy' as the original 1340. The fin unit is the same between all kits that have used it off and on now for 46 years. It holds up well under F power from what I understand, but I think Jerry Irvine has reported fin flutter/fin breakage under G power.

Earl
With 3D printing, this is no longer a problem; files could be generated for printing "wide shoulder" (Phoenix Bird) and "narrow shoulder" (1340 Sounding Rocket) nose cones and tubing couplers. Thank you for reminding me about the thick-walled tubing (*and* for pointing out where it can be sourced!); looking at the 1340 and 1340/20 pamphlets last night, that notion--about the tubing thickness, given their very powerful motors--was "tickling" at the edge of my awareness, and:

I hadn't known that the 29 mm motor tubing "sleeve fits" into that thick-walled body tubing--that is good to know! I have relayed your information to Bruce Levison ('teflonrocketry1'). Thank you also for passing along Jerry Irvine's report about the fin unit's "F-power limit" (for avoiding fin flutter and breakage under G power). F power is plenty strong for me, but maybe (for those who'd like to use G power safely) a somewhat "beefier" duplicate of the fin unit could be 3D printed (slightly thicker gauge, perhaps?)--or maybe the fin unit in the Estes Eliminator might be strengthened with Kevlar veil and epoxy--to withstand the stresses from G motors.
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #19  
Old 06-12-2018, 06:07 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BARGeezer
Funny you should mention that. Just received Frank Burke's Pegasus X R/C rocket glider kit.

https://dynasoarrocketry.com/?page_id=1640

Would have loved to build the TMRK Pegasus kit, but they went defunct, plus it's a tad out of my budget ( Okay, more than a tad).

http://tmrk.rocketshoppe.com/pegasus.htm


Looked into cloning it, but the wing to body transitions look very difficult.
Whew! That TMRK Pegasus kit should have a gold lamé parachute for that price! :-) The R/C one would make a good PSS (Power Scale Soaring [such slope-soaring models of powered aircraft not uncommonly have such over-sized wings and tail surfaces to permit better gliding performance]) model.
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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  #20  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:19 PM
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RocketRohde RocketRohde is offline
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I pulled out my original Centuri Phoenix Bird while at home for lunch. I brought the upper section back with me and can tell you the following: The visible adaptor has a coupling 1.5" long with 1" to hold onto the lower tune. The remainder is a .5" cone with a eyehook for connections. I assume the upper coupling is the same, but since its been glued together for 39 years, I can't tell. The middle part that is the same diameter as the tube is .875" long. The upper tube is 7" long. I didn't bring the lower half so I can't give you a length on that.

Mike
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2015 motors - 1469 n/s (200 flights)
2016 motors - 1/8A-1, 1/2A-20, A-39, B-46, C-56, D-10, E-7 = 1238 n/s (175 flights)
2017 motors - 1/2A-4, A-26, B-52, C-47, D-6, E-7, F-3 = 1238 n/s (138 flights)
2018 motors thru 6/16/18 - 1/8A -1, 1/4A -1, 1/2A - 3, A-9, B-14, C-31, D-5, E-6, F-2 = 750 n/s (67 flights)
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