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  #21  
Old 10-02-2016, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by tbzep
Centuri's fins were oversized, but not as much as the Estes 2001 wood fins.
Thank you for clarifying that--I never saw a Centuri Saturn V "in person." The original 1969 release Estes Saturn V (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/69est024.html ) had true-scale fins that I think were balsa. (The photograph of a less-than-expertly-built 1:100 scale Saturn V on page 9 of the "4-H Aerospace Program" booklet [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/4h9.html ] suggests this, although the model might have been the Centuri Saturn V [if it had balsa wood fins; the Centuri catalog citation says that it had "pre-shaped fins" http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/69cenp16.html , which implies that its fins were balsa wood].)
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  #22  
Old 10-02-2016, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by blackshire
Thank you for clarifying that--I never saw a Centuri Saturn V "in person." The original 1969 release Estes Saturn V (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/69est024.html ) had true-scale fins that I think were balsa. (The photograph of a less-than-expertly-built 1:100 scale Saturn V on page 9 of the "4-H Aerospace Program" booklet [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/4h9.html ] suggests this, although the model might have been the Centuri Saturn V [if it had balsa wood fins; the Centuri catalog citation says that it had "pre-shaped fins" http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/69cenp16.html , which implies that its fins were balsa wood].)

I guess it's possible the 69 Centuri kit had balsa fins, but the 70 model definitely had oversized plastic fins. I have a feeling the 69 did too. If you notice, the 1/100 Saturn 1B is described as "pre-shaped" fins also. I don't recall it ever having balsa fins.
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  #23  
Old 10-02-2016, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by tbzep
I guess it's possible the 69 Centuri kit had balsa fins, but the 70 model definitely had oversized plastic fins. I have a feeling the 69 did too. If you notice, the 1/100 Saturn 1B is described as "pre-shaped" fins also. I don't recall it ever having balsa fins.
I can see in the 1971 Centuri catalog citation (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...d/71dcen30.html )--from the illustration, and from the text mentioning "hollow core" and "clear molded" fins--that their Saturn V kit (by that time, if not from the very beginning) had slightly-over-sized molded plastic fins (theirs were more subtly "nudged" out of scale than the Estes kit's fins, in its later releases). Also:

I had always thought that Centuri's Saturn IB had plastic fins too, and their use of the term "pre-shaped fins" in their Saturn V kit description--as well as in their Saturn IB's kit description--does indeed suggest that their Saturn IB also had plastic fins from the start. (In those days, plastic parts in model rockets were still something of a novelty [even plastic nose cones in 3FNC and 4FNC kits were touted as special features back then], so I can see how they could have used "pre-shaped fins" to denote detailed, high-fidelity molded scale--or very nearly so, in the case of their Saturn V kit--plastic fins.)
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  #24  
Old 10-02-2016, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by blackshire
I can see in the 1971 Centuri catalog citation (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...d/71dcen30.html )--from the illustration, and from the text mentioning "hollow core" and "clear molded" fins--that their Saturn V kit (by that time, if not from the very beginning) had slightly-over-sized molded plastic fins (theirs were more subtly "nudged" out of scale than the Estes kit's fins, in its later releases). Also:

I had always thought that Centuri's Saturn IB had plastic fins too, and their use of the term "pre-shaped fins" in their Saturn V kit description--as well as in their Saturn IB's kit description--does indeed suggest that their Saturn IB also had plastic fins from the start. (In those days, plastic parts in model rockets were still something of a novelty [even plastic nose cones in 3FNC and 4FNC kits were touted as special features back then], so I can see how they could have used "pre-shaped fins" to denote detailed, high-fidelity molded scale--or very nearly so, in the case of their Saturn V kit--plastic fins.)


Pretty sure both the Centuri Saturn V and Saturn 1b always had plastic, two-piece vacu-formed fins. Each fin consisted of two vacu-formed halves that were joined with cement, allowed to thoroughly dry, then you trimmed away the excess plastic around the outer edge. I've never seen a set of instructions for either kit that had balsa or any other material for the Saturn fins. All instruction sets I've ever seen or have (and I have a number of vintage kits of each Centuri Saturn) show the vacu-formed fin halves. Matter of fact, I have a vintage Saturn 1b about ready for paint now. That fin can, with eight fins built as described above, was pretty tedious, but they turn out pretty nice. Takes work though, no doubt.

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  #25  
Old 10-02-2016, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Earl
Pretty sure both the Centuri Saturn V and Saturn 1b always had plastic, two-piece vacu-formed fins. Each fin consisted of two vacu-formed halves that were joined with cement, allowed to thoroughly dry, then you trimmed away the excess plastic around the outer edge. I've never seen a set of instructions for either kit that had balsa or any other material for the Saturn fins. All instruction sets I've ever seen or have (and I have a number of vintage kits of each Centuri Saturn) show the vacu-formed fin halves. Matter of fact, I have a vintage Saturn 1b about ready for paint now. That fin can, with eight fins built as described above, was pretty tedious, but they turn out pretty nice. Takes work though, no doubt.

Rarl
Thank you--that makes Centuri's term that they applied to both their Saturn IB and Saturn V kits, "pre-shaped fins," even more sensible, because the kits' fins weren't molded (in a cavity) like other plastic model rocket parts, but were shaped from sheet plastic over an internal "plug," which was then removed. I only had the "poor man's Saturn IB and Saturn V models," the Cox (made by Estes in the 1990s) Ready-To-Fly all-plastic rockets. :-) I'd love it if Estes made a 1:100 scale "Apollo kit set"--a Saturn IB and an Apollo Little Joe II in the same scale as their Saturn V kit.
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  #26  
Old 10-03-2016, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by blackshire
... I only had the "poor man's Saturn IB and Saturn V models," the Cox (made by Estes in the 1990s) Ready-To-Fly all-plastic rockets. :-) ...


Just a minor correction.

Cox re-issued several of their original RTF model rocket models between 1989-1991.

Estes did not acquire Cox until the mid-1990s at which point the rockets were no longer part of the active product line.

Only 1000 of the Cox Saturn Vs were produced (Still with the wrong interstage paint pattern).

I posted some history about Cox over on TRF many years ago. I believe you can search and still find my thread.
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2016, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Initiator001
Just a minor correction.

Cox re-issued several of their original RTF model rocket models between 1989-1991.

Estes did not acquire Cox until the mid-1990s at which point the rockets were no longer part of the active product line.

Only 1000 of the Cox Saturn Vs were produced (Still with the wrong interstage paint pattern).

I posted some history about Cox over on TRF many years ago. I believe you can search and still find my thread.
It's been a long time, but seem to I recall talking with Estes at the time (maybe it was Cox, but I think it was Estes) and "lobbying" them to produce the Little Joe II and Nike Zeus (the Little Joe II booster section's mold was lost in a move, breaking when it fell off a truck, and the Nike Zeus molds weren't usable or available for a reason that I can't recall). Similar to how Centuri owned Estes on paper (even though both were run as supposed competitors) before we started seeing "Centuri Corp." on Estes products after Centuri went away, did Estes perhaps already own Cox on paper at that time, before Cox's tooling (some or all of it) was transferred to Estes' location?
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  #28  
Old 10-04-2016, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Thank you--that makes Centuri's term that they applied to both their Saturn IB and Saturn V kits, "pre-shaped fins," even more sensible, because the kits' fins weren't molded (in a cavity) like other plastic model rocket parts, but were shaped from sheet plastic over an internal "plug," which was then removed. I only had the "poor man's Saturn IB and Saturn V models," the Cox (made by Estes in the 1990s) Ready-To-Fly all-plastic rockets. :-) I'd love it if Estes made a 1:100 scale "Apollo kit set"--a Saturn IB and an Apollo Little Joe II in the same scale as their Saturn V kit.

Yes, they were vacu-formed with sheet styrene, left half, right half. Same as the fins for the Estes Maxi-brute kits. Thin styrene, careful trimming, sanding. Back in the day, good old Testor's cement that contained stuff the People's Republik of Kalifornia forbids. Today it's Tenax-7R, Pro-Weld, chlorinated brake cleaner, or equivalent.
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  #29  
Old 10-04-2016, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tbzep
Yes, they were vacu-formed with sheet styrene, left half, right half. Same as the fins for the Estes Maxi-brute kits. Thin styrene, careful trimming, sanding. Back in the day, good old Testor's cement that contained stuff the People's Republik of Kalifornia forbids. Today it's Tenax-7R, Pro-Weld, chlorinated brake cleaner, or equivalent.
I miss the good old-formula Testors liquid plastic cement; it worked like a charm on the vacu-formed styrene parts of my father's Estes U.S.S. Enterprise kit. As with large fiber fins, I wouldn't care to use vacu-formed styrene fins whose rear portions protrude below the bottom edge of the body tube, because they would easily get bent or broken by the landing impact forces (although even a rocket with large, non-rear-protruding vacu-formed fins could suffer such damage if the rocket was swinging--as it might be on a breezy day--at landing).
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  #30  
Old 10-05-2016, 09:18 AM
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Default Saturn V Instruction Update

I know you guys are smart enough to figure this out when building the Saturn V but we supplied the shorter 24mm D size yellow spacer tube instead of the longer 24mm E size spacer tube. This tube is used to place the engine block in the correct location. We will correct this in future pack outs of the kit.



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