I salute Ironnerd for his quest for justice but I am not optimistic. Several months ago (over on that other forum) there was a similar discussion about a man's efforts in North Little Rock, Arkansas to obtain permission from their parks department to use their facilities to fly model rockets. These petty dictators put this poor chap through the wringer, throwing up as many legal obstacles and excessive fees as their legal consultants could concoct.

It didn't matter how many times this individual petitioner pointed out the safety record of hobby rocketry, the educational benefits or the NAR liability insurance which covers its members. The answer was always the same...don't confuse use with facts, our minds are made up.

GH, you may well be right on this one.

Poorly-conceived (and/or written) laws have been done away with via that method, but it's definitely a last resort, civil disobedience type of method. Since no persecution or discrimination is involved in this particular problem, it should be possible to get the ordinance thrown out (or amended to specifically exempt model rockets, as G. Harry Stine and others got done all over the country--back then, model rockets were lumped in with fireworks).G. Harry Stine described this on page 7 of his "Handbook of Model Rocketry" (the Sixth Edition, published in 1994):

"A model rocket literally disintegrates when it hits something because its airframe absorbs the energy of impact by destroying itself. This is the same principle used in modern automobiles where "crush zones" absorb the energy of a crash by deforming and collapsing. Model rockets have been deliberately launched point-blank into sheets of window glass; these experiments completely destroyed the models but didn't even scratch the glass." Also:

A point-blank shot (before the motor has burned all of its propellant and accelerated the rocket to its maximum velocity) would be less likely to break the glass, as would using a smaller sheet of glass supported at its edges (or by a smaller window frame). A Lexan window of any size would probably withstand even a maximum-velocity model rocket impact.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

The idea isn't to rig the test so that it passes (via using Lexan), but to use something as fragile as possible to show just how their preconceived notions are incorrect (notice the use of the word incorrect, not wrong, which has harsher connotations).

What would be more impressive is to launch the rocket against the glass, then use something along the lines of an old pinball ball dropped from a height to create damage to the window, showing that the window was as fragile as they thought.

__________________
Bernard J. Herman Ohio RLS

Starport Sagitta Rockets
email bherman@sagittarockets.com

NAR # 97971 SR

What's your idea on the best way to change Washington D.C.?
Let us know at the Cantina
Sagitta Cantina

We're looking for a few good Catos, please tell us about any you may have had. Survey of Anecdotal Malfunctioning Engines or S.A.M.E.

Well Tmack, you may be right. However just throwing in the towel and going roguie isn't going to help the situation in the long run.


As I have talked to Blackshire about previously elsewhere, One of the things Starport Sagitta (my Model rocket company) will attempt to accomplish is to be active in helping rocketeers create places to launch at.

This my seem self evident, but by the company actively helping and supporting rocketeers across the country make more areas available for launches, our client base increases. How many people have been turned off on the hobby from the lack of a place to launch? How many have stopped launching because of misperceptions by law enforcement on the legality of launching. Where have they been able to go to get support?
The NAR?
The NAR's suggestion is to basically just look for a local chapter who already has a field.
Estes?
The only response from Estes I can envision (and I could be dead wrong) would be for the individual to seek out NAR assistance.

How Starport Sagitta would handle it is not available in full at this time. However, it would eventually be a more direct response than I am undertaking now, although being a clearinghouse for ideas and success stories would be a part of that.

So, Ironnerd, please keep me informed of any progress you make and how such success was attained. I will appreciate it. Also remember that a victory in one theater of operations can help create success elsewhere, and in the end every rocketeer is benefited.

__________________
Bernard J. Herman Ohio RLS

Starport Sagitta Rockets
email bherman@sagittarockets.com

NAR # 97971 SR

What's your idea on the best way to change Washington D.C.?
Let us know at the Cantina
Sagitta Cantina

We're looking for a few good Catos, please tell us about any you may have had. Survey of Anecdotal Malfunctioning Engines or S.A.M.E.

Did that fellow try to do it alone? That is the least likely way to succeed. Having a group of model rocketry-interested adults (and children, for the "public relations pressure" that their presence brings) petition the powers-that-be as a group (and remind them that "By the way, we vote and campaign for candidates, based on what they do--or fail to do--for us") is far more effective than when one citizen tries to do it alone, even when all of the facts are on his or her side. (Incidentally, our own revolution was a last resort, taken only after all other options had failed, over an approximately two-decade period; it isn't time to fly model rockets under a Gadsden "Don't Tread On Me" flag [see: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...0.0.eCpC8xztVbU ] *yet*.)

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

*Nods* I wasn't suggesting that the test be rigged. I was thinking of bus (and other vehicles') windows, that could conceivably be hit as vehicles are driven past parks. Dropping the ball (perhaps to the theme of "Pinball Wizard" by The Who, on a video) would be impressive (Elton John's "Rocket Man" would be a natural choice for -that- portion of the test...)!

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Bernie, I am not suggesting that Ironnerd throw in the towel just yet or that he go rouge. But in my experience I have found that butting heads with buttheads usually leads to nothing more than a severe headache. Were it me, either as an individual or representing a NAR club, I would look outside of any city setting for a receptive rural landowner. I have found several private sites with that method and made some friends along the way. I also located a nice high power launch site for DARS.

If I recall correctly he fought his battle alone and I agree, this is the least likely route to success. The exact opposite is true when an individual approaches an individual landowner, at least in my experience, and the decision is quick as there is no bureaucratic mindset to overcome.

POTATO CANNONS and Dwarf-Tossing should NOT be illegal or even regulated on public land EVER, either.
Gubmint entities should not concern themselves with activities short of the danger level of 'william tell' arrow shooting.
If it's less dangerous than aiming a lethal arrow two inches above another human's head, they should keep their STINKIN' SNOOTS out of regulating activity in public parks. BUTT THE HELL OUT.

__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !

Both options could be pursued in parallel; it need not be an "either/or" situation. Also, having two options--one public, one private (or two of either one, depending on the locality)--has another advantage. Even when a public park is open to space modelers, there may be times when it could be unavailable for other reasons (having its grass mowed, having new grass seed being laid down, etc.), and a private field could be unavailable at times for the same reasons. Having both a primary and an alternate flying field is always a good idea.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR