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  #11  
Old 01-08-2019, 07:19 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithwalker
No problem. Glad to help out.

You may also find some interest in the following AVI advertisement from the inside front cover of the April 1973 issue of Model Rocketeer Magazine. It shows built up versions of some newly introduced AVI kits including the P-Chuter, Mini-Hawk, Space Angel, Nike-Tomahawk, Sounder, and U.S.S. Eagle. I'm curious if anyone actually purchased and received any of these kits. All we know for sure is that Ellie Stine flew the P-Chuter at the first World Championship for Space Models, and that G. Harry Stine drew up the plans for it. It would be nice to know, if anyone can comment, whether they actually had/have any of these kits from AVI.

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR
Oh, wow--yes, that ad *is* interesting--Thank You for posting it! I don't mean to be morbid here, but with AVI's owner, Myke Bergenske, having died recently (at age 80, I believe), I figured that it would be prudent to seek out anyone who might have "cloning data" on old kits such as these (which are "missing entries" on the Ye Olde Rocket Plans website and JimZ's website), before such knowledge dies with those who have it. Anything that we can save from oblivion now can be preserved for future generations (I wonder if anyone has any of the BoMar kits, none of which are listed on Ye Olde Rocket Plans; other than their 1969 catalog [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...69bomarcat.html ] and perhaps a few ads in Model Rocketeer, nothing about them has survived), and:

I wonder if the AVI Sounder (called the Delta-Vee Sounder in the 1973 AVI catalog: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/73avicat.html ) and the U.S.S. Eagle kits might have used Estes BT-60 (1.637" O.D.) or Centuri #16 Series (1.640" O.D.) tubing? The Model Rocketeer advertisement and the AVI catalog both gave its diameter as just 1.6" (oddly, all of the other kits listed in the AVI 1973 catalog--the same ones as were in the ad--had their precise decimal inch and millimeter diameters listed, while in the Model Rocketeer ad, their diameters were all rounded off. But regardless, it's wonderful to see an actual photograph of all of them! Also:

The two-stage Space Angel definitely used the 15 mm minimum-diameter Miniroc body tubes, and also the 5:1 tangent ogive nose cone that was used in the MPC/AVI Taurus-1, Super Star, Astrobee D, and Delta Katt kits. The Mini-Hawk is easy to clone, using a 6" (if memory serves) length of Quest 20 mm tubing, and the old MPC-type Tomahawk plastic fin unit and PNC-20 nose cone (Quest used to make these; they now make a slightly different PNC-20, and a Tomahawk-like, slide-on fin unit, which could be used to make a "near-clone" Mini-Hawk [although the old MPC/AVI parts could also be 3D printed]). The Nike-Tomahawk could be built using either a stage coupler/center tube/balsa internal gussets/card stock shroud scale interstage, or a 3D printed one. It could be flown either "stock" (single stage), or it could be gap-staged, with streamer or parachute recovery of the Nike booster (or the model could even use electronic second stage ignition).
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  #12  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:22 AM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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Regarding those advertised kits:

AVI was notorious for vaporware. They published catalogs and a newsletter promising stuff that never materialized.

So, I wouldn't count on ever seeing any of those kits. I'm not even sure about the P-Chuter.

This isn't to say that they didn't deliver items in stock. And they did make a few of their own promised kits; the "Lineaus Gigantus" comes to mind.

Mostly, they sold old MPC and MRI stock. Some MRI kits were re-introduced with B&W instruction sheets.

The big black powder motors were not vaporware; I bought and flew several of those.
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  #13  
Old 01-08-2019, 10:38 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
Regarding those advertised kits:

AVI was notorious for vaporware. They published catalogs and a newsletter promising stuff that never materialized.

So, I wouldn't count on ever seeing any of those kits. I'm not even sure about the P-Chuter.

This isn't to say that they didn't deliver items in stock. And they did make a few of their own promised kits; the "Lineaus Gigantus" comes to mind.

Mostly, they sold old MPC and MRI stock. Some MRI kits were re-introduced with B&W instruction sheets.

The big black powder motors were not vaporware; I bought and flew several of those.
That is good--if not happy--to know. At least they were shown and described well enough that at least "forensic clones" of them (with fin patterns constructed from the photographs) should be possible (the ones with all-plastic parts--such as the Mini-Hawk and Nike-Tomahawk--would, of course, be easier to replicate). Speaking of motors, somewhere here on YORF there is a thread that--if memory serves--mentioned AVI motors with glued-in, selectable delay/ejection charge modules, which the NAR gave a thumbs-down.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-2019, 12:21 AM
Faithwalker Faithwalker is offline
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Default Bo-Mar Development Company

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
... (I wonder if anyone has any of the BoMar kits, none of which are listed on Ye Olde Rocket Plans; other than their 1969 catalog [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...69bomarcat.html ] and perhaps a few ads in Model Rocketeer, nothing about them has survived)...

Looks like G. Harry Stine had at least two of the Bo-Mar kits, the Swift and the Alpha-1:
https://airandspace.si.edu/collecti...model-kit-swift
https://airandspace.si.edu/collecti...del-kit-alpha-1

Plus, Bill Eichelberger (Wallyum) has taken a stab at reproducing at least three of their kits, the Spartan, the Alpha-B, and the Ajax: https://www.rocketreviews.com/bo-mar.html

In addition, Bill has done an upscale Bo-Mar Spartan (see https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/sho...ighlight=Bo-Mar ). Nice work, Bill!

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR
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Last edited by Faithwalker : 01-09-2019 at 01:21 AM.
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  #15  
Old 01-09-2019, 06:40 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithwalker
Looks like G. Harry Stine had at least two of the Bo-Mar kits, the Swift and the Alpha-1:
https://airandspace.si.edu/collecti...model-kit-swift
https://airandspace.si.edu/collecti...del-kit-alpha-1

Plus, Bill Eichelberger (Wallyum) has taken a stab at reproducing at least three of their kits, the Spartan, the Alpha-B, and the Ajax: https://www.rocketreviews.com/bo-mar.html

In addition, Bill has done an upscale Bo-Mar Spartan (see https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/sho...ighlight=Bo-Mar ). Nice work, Bill!

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR
How about that! Thank you for posting those links! (It would be interesting to know what all model rocketry items the National Air and Space Museum has, because Stine mentioned in his Handbook that he and others donated a lot of items to the NASM.) An interesting note about both of those Bo-Mar kits (which is mentioned in their brief descriptions) is that the fins, body, and nose are made of something called "Kraftboard" (Kraft paper, perhaps?), *but*:

That is almost certainly erroneous, though, because I could see that the Swift's nose cone is wood, and a piece of sheet balsa is also visible in both kits' plastic bags, as are regular Kraft paper body tubes. Also, the Bo-Mar 1969 catalog (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...69bomarcat.html ) says that the Swift's nose cone was hardwood. In fact, the inside front cover of the catalog ("Introducing the Mini-Arsenal") says of all of their kits that: "The use of hardwood nosecones eliminates use of added weights and provides for more rugged use, better-looking models and greater stability." Also:

They used 1" x 18" vinyl plastic streamers, which were available in yellow (that's the color visible in the Swift kit), red, blue, and orange (the Alpha-1's streamer is that color). They also sold plastic nose cones (and "chromed" versions of them, too) for customizing their kits, but maybe Bo-Mar didn't last long enough to design and offer rocket kits that used the plastic nose cones. (I get the impression that Bo-Mar was formed to capitalize on the Moon landing excitement in 1969 [or 1968?] or so, then faded as the space program interest did; I don't know if they ever even made motors, or sold re-labeled Estes or Centuri motors.) Their metal--it looks like it was--FLEX-A-PAD launcher looked tough, and interestingly, they offered not only 12" parachutes (how many shroud lines they had, I don't know), but 6" parachutes--decades before Estes offered such tiny 'chutes! (Estes' smallest ones were 8" and 10" wide [PK-8 and PK-10]). As well:

Speaking of Bill's up-scaled Bo-Mar Spartan (which looks really sharp--thank you for including the link to his thread about it!), he got me thinking... This kind of recreation of old rocket kits, where one only has incomplete data to proceed on (some builders of museum models of rocket vehicles have been in the same position, as Peter Alway pointed out in his 1994 book, "The Art of Scale Model Rocketry"), could become a new Scale category in model rocketry, which could be called Forensic Scale. In a reply to Bill Eichelberger's Bo-Mar Spartan thread (in Reply #13, see: http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/show...6586#post226586 ), I wrote (in part) the following about Forensic Scale:

A useful name for this type of model reproduction that you've done here, where you only have incomplete data to go on, might be "Forensic Scale," because it is similar to the other forensic arts (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_arts ). While the term "forensic" is usually associated with police work (where a police department sketch artist or sculptor [both can use computer techniques and/or the original manual ones] creates a portrait or sculpture of a subject from witnesses' descriptions), these techniques are also used in other fields, such as art reconstruction, anthropology, archaeology, etc. Also:

A few plastic model kits have been Forensic Scale, too (one example is the Testors 1:48 scale Area 51 UFO kit, which was designed based on verbal description or descriptions). A working definition of Forensic Scale model rockets might be:
************************************
A Forensic Scale model rocket is a replica of a full-scale rocket or spacecraft (or of a proposed, cancelled, or existing but yet-to-be-flown vehicle of either type, or a fictional vehicle of either type), or a replica of a non-scale, Scale, Sport Scale, or semi-scale model rocket kit of the past, whose design requires the builder to utilize forensic art techniques due to having only incomplete data to use.

These forensic techniques can include reconstructing fin patterns, other parts (including body tube lengths), and decor schemes from published and/or unpublished, partly-dimensioned and/or un-dimensioned drawings, illustrations, sketches, and/or photographs of the original vehicles or models, as well as printed and/or verbal descriptions from the original vehicles' or models' manufacturers, as well as from others who built or owned examples of the original vehicles or models.
************************************
I hope this information will be helpful.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #16  
Old 01-09-2019, 01:51 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Oh, wow--yes, that ad *is* interesting--Thank You for posting it! I don't mean to be morbid here, but with AVI's owner, Myke Bergenske, having died recently (at age 80, I believe), I figured that it would be prudent to seek out anyone who might have "cloning data" on old kits such as these (which are "missing entries" on the Ye Olde Rocket Plans website and JimZ's website), before such knowledge dies with those who have it. Anything that we can save from oblivion now can be preserved for future generations (I wonder if anyone has any of the BoMar kits, none of which are listed on Ye Olde Rocket Plans; other than their 1969 catalog [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...69bomarcat.html ] and perhaps a few ads in Model Rocketeer, nothing about them has survived), and:

I wonder if the AVI Sounder (called the Delta-Vee Sounder in the 1973 AVI catalog: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/no...a/73avicat.html ) and the U.S.S. Eagle kits might have used Estes BT-60 (1.637" O.D.) or Centuri #16 Series (1.640" O.D.) tubing? The Model Rocketeer advertisement and the AVI catalog both gave its diameter as just 1.6" (oddly, all of the other kits listed in the AVI 1973 catalog--the same ones as were in the ad--had their precise decimal inch and millimeter diameters listed, while in the Model Rocketeer ad, their diameters were all rounded off. But regardless, it's wonderful to see an actual photograph of all of them! Also:

The two-stage Space Angel definitely used the 15 mm minimum-diameter Miniroc body tubes, and also the 5:1 tangent ogive nose cone that was used in the MPC/AVI Taurus-1, Super Star, Astrobee D, and Delta Katt kits. The Mini-Hawk is easy to clone, using a 6" (if memory serves) length of Quest 20 mm tubing, and the old MPC-type Tomahawk plastic fin unit and PNC-20 nose cone (Quest used to make these; they now make a slightly different PNC-20, and a Tomahawk-like, slide-on fin unit, which could be used to make a "near-clone" Mini-Hawk [although the old MPC/AVI parts could also be 3D printed]). The Nike-Tomahawk could be built using either a stage coupler/center tube/balsa internal gussets/card stock shroud scale interstage, or a 3D printed one. It could be flown either "stock" (single stage), or it could be gap-staged, with streamer or parachute recovery of the Nike booster (or the model could even use electronic second stage ignition).
I just noticed, on the Semroc site, an Estes BT-60 nose cone (in the NC-60A and NC-60A-1 packs, see: http://www.erockets.biz/brands/Estes.html ) that looks like the nose cone on the AVI Delta Vee Sounder and U.S.S. Eagle rockets.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #17  
Old 01-10-2019, 11:33 AM
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A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faithwalker
Looks like G. Harry Stine had at least two of the Bo-Mar kits, the Swift and the Alpha-1:
https://airandspace.si.edu/collecti...model-kit-swift
https://airandspace.si.edu/collecti...del-kit-alpha-1

Plus, Bill Eichelberger (Wallyum) has taken a stab at reproducing at least three of their kits, the Spartan, the Alpha-B, and the Ajax: https://www.rocketreviews.com/bo-mar.html

In addition, Bill has done an upscale Bo-Mar Spartan (see https://forums.rocketshoppe.com/sho...ighlight=Bo-Mar ). Nice work, Bill!

Kind regards,
Jeff Jenkins
aka: Faithwalker
NAR #46879 SR


Thanks, Jeff. I thought I had another one ready to go, with parts and plans gathered, but I can't think of which one at the moment. My rocketry time has been decimated by my recent shift change. Trying to become a member of first shift society after 32 years hasn't been as easy as I thought it would be.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-2019, 12:20 PM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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Quote:
Speaking of motors, somewhere here on YORF there is a thread that--if memory serves--mentioned AVI motors with glued-in, selectable delay/ejection charge modules, which the NAR gave a thumbs-down.


The 24mm and 35mm (?) "Gold Line" motors did have delay / ejection charges that were glued in. But this was done at the factory. You didn't get to choose. I don't recall getting any of the boosters; I assume they would leave the delay / ejection cylinder out.

I don't recall that the NAR had a problem with this.

I flew a few of the big E and F motors. They were pretty awesome at the time. Longer duration thrust than the FSI F100. I flew them in a custom-made model with a Nike Smoke cone. It may have been minimum diameter!
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  #19  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:50 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
The 24mm and 35mm (?) "Gold Line" motors did have delay / ejection charges that were glued in. But this was done at the factory. You didn't get to choose. I don't recall getting any of the boosters; I assume they would leave the delay / ejection cylinder out.

I don't recall that the NAR had a problem with this.

I flew a few of the big E and F motors. They were pretty awesome at the time. Longer duration thrust than the FSI F100. I flew them in a custom-made model with a Nike Smoke cone. It may have been minimum diameter!
That's why I included that proviso, as it's been some time since I read that thread. That sounds like an efficient production method, as it enabled AVI to use fewer "base" motor types (and less equipment to make them), with the various delay & ejection charge modules being installed into them at the factory.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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