I wonder why the big stink myself. It's not like Estes and many others haven't stolen designs from each other.

In this case, or Semroc, the market is so small. If someone wants to make a rocket, that is NOT currently in production, will a business collapse? I doubt his sales are to the point where he is making any real money.

If you go by the hard liners, then you should rot in prison and burn in hell for cloning anything!
______________________

Gah. Give me that bat, so I can beat the horse some more...

My personal complaint has to do with (a) his use of my work, which I gave away for free, in a commercial product (this is by far the smallest complaint); (b) his use of a font, available from another for non-commercial use only, which I used in my design; by selling it, he violated the other fellow's license; (c) his use of my photograph (my MAIN complaint) as his advertising photo/package art, without so much as a how-do-you-do (much less asking permission).

I am told that he also, in effect, photocopies Estes and/or Centuri instruction sheets for his clone kits. This is definitely a violation of copyright; the merger of Estes and Centuri means they are all Estes copyrights, and they will be valid for years to come. However, that's not my dog in the fight, so I won't say any more about it.

__________________
NAR # 115523
Once upon a better day... SAM #0076
My site: http://rocketry.gonnerman.org

I've read the posts where some wonder what the big deal is.
Those who don't recognize it probably haven't been ripped off before.

I've been in the entertainment business for years.
It never fails, the same show ideas or concepts I came up with are produced under someone elses name after I've left a theme park.
Wanna-be comedians (under the guise of cruise directors) take your sure-fire lines and use them when your contract on the ship is over.
I copyright my original material and my kit instructions for that very reason.

I've been ripped off too many times.
I know where Solomoriah is coming from.

__________________
Hans "Chris" Michielssen
Old/New NAR # 19086 SR

www.oddlrockets.com
www.modelrocketbuilding.blogspot.com
http://www.nar.org/educational-reso...ing-techniques/
Your results may vary
"Nose cones roll, be careful with that."
Every spaceman needs a ray gun.
Look out - I'm the Meister Shyster!

Heck, hcmbanjo, I GIVE everything away. I always have. But using my work commercially without even giving me credit... it's just wrong.

But it's not me he should worry about. All I'm going to do is gripe. Were I him, I'd be worried that Estes might realize what he's up to ('cause I don't believe for a minute that they actually approved his use of their material, given their recent dealings with Semroc).

__________________
NAR # 115523
Once upon a better day... SAM #0076
My site: http://rocketry.gonnerman.org

"All things are legal, but not all things are profitable"... 1 Corinthians 10:23

Later! OL JR

__________________
The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Yeah, there's a big difference in "cloning" a rocket for your own use, and doing it COMMERCIALLY as a money-making venture. IMHO if you want to measure someone else's name-brand rocket and make a copy of it with parts you scrounge up and order yourself, more power to ya... I've seen folks want to clone a kit and ask for the instructions, which for some kits might be just about necessary to actually get it to come together properly, but that is getting pretty close to the line, IMHO... at that point it starts getting into "intellectual property" where if someone has put the time and energy into figuring out how to do something, if you can't reasonably figure out how to copy it, ya aught to just buy the darn thing outright and reward them for their ingenuity.

Copying everybody else's work without permission, without credit, and with NO work or input except copying it directly just seems wrong to me, whether it's Aunt Estes or "the lil' guy" on some forum or other... If I see your "font" and make a reasonable facsimile in the same style, I don't see anything wrong with that... after all, my interpretation of it is going to be slightly different, even if I used your font as "inspiration" and modeled mine after it. Simply copying your font or whatever directly though just hits me as 'wrong', without credit or permission.

Heck I used to dub a lot of tapes back in the day... if I liked a movie I rented, I copied it. (back in the ol' VHS days, remember those??) Course they were strictly for MY OWN private use... selling them is piracy and just plain wrong. I wouldn't knowingly BUY a pirated video or software or anything either, just as I wouldn't sell it. I have a bunch of comedy cassettes on audiotape-- modern vehicles don't even have cassette tape players anymore... let alone being able to find them... some of these cassettes date back to the early 80's and aren't available anymore. So I've put them on CD's to play in the car, or on the MP3 player to hook into the car system... to me changing formats of something I've already purchased legally and paid the royalties for is perfectly honest... and in the case of something that's 30 years old and not even available anymore, what else is one to do??

I dunno... maybe I'm a prig to some and an outlaw to others... but that's my honest opinion of the matter... And a big part of it is how one responds when they're called on something by the original creator... Yeah I remember Semroc getting called on some stuff, and they worked with them to make it right and to differentiate what they were doing sufficiently to not step on toes... To me that's the right way to do it. Saying "screw you guys, shut up or I'll sue" is the wrong way to go about it...

All IMHO...

Later! OL JR

__________________
The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

I take stuff from the internet all the time. There are some images, I've run in circles trying to figure out who the originator was.

I guess, if he photo copies Estes instructions they are getting some "credit" in there. If it was a current production kit, I would have a problem with it too.
___________

Not the issue here. He took the photograph from the same page (MY page) where I shared the shroud PDF he used in his kit. He could hardly claim he didn't know where it came from, and when I called him on it, he made all sorts of claims that have nothing to do with reality, then threatened me with a lawsuit.


Credit has nothing to do with the law. In production or not, reproducing their instructions is illegal.

__________________
NAR # 115523
Once upon a better day... SAM #0076
My site: http://rocketry.gonnerman.org

I'm aware it isn't legal. And the guy could at least give a credit of thanks.

My real point is that there are levels here. Does Rand McNally go after everyone who sells a "Map To Star's Homes"?
__________

I guess you like visiting The Pirate Bay, too.

Rand McNally gets their money when the star mapper buys the map he uses to draw the circles on.

__________________
I love sanding.