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  #31  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:00 AM
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I started several times to post something similar to the two above posts but didn't have the time or tact to complete it. I agree, while the Navajo may not have been a stand-alone success, the R&D that went into it was an integral part of our development of both military and civilian capabilities. In that regard, it was as cool as it looked at launch.
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  #32  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Ez2cDave

That was cool how the launch pad arms pushed the missile away horizontally and the guidance system kept it true.
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  #33  
Old 04-11-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by frognbuff
I think the US was being a bit more practical than the Soviets. The R-7 certainly set the stage for legendary accomplishments, but it's operational deployment as a weapon system was limited to four pads of the type you still see at Baikonur today. The US wanted to avoid that kind of costly, exposed basing. The Soviets knew it was a crappy weapon and moved quickly to field the infinitely more practical SS-7 and SS-8 ICBMs (though the latter suffered from use of LOX).

Your narrative also omits the fact the R-7 has, in fact, evolved significantly over the years. We think of the design as static, but this chart shows the Soviets/Russians never stopped tweaking the engines for more performance: http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/S...nes/engines.htm

Finally, don't forget the Soviets had at least two "Navaho" equivalents under development as a hedge against R-7 failure or a perceived US advantage from Navaho - the Burya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burya) and Buran (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS-40_Buran).

If GH thinks the test version of Navaho in Florida is absurd, then the planned G-38 operational version (bigger, even more difficult to handle) is truly outrageous!
I didn't omit anything; it was just a brief posting that touched upon the highlights. The Soviet (meaning: Joseph Stalin's) decision to develop an ICBM at the earliest opportunity was based on political as well as (if not more than) military considerations; he said (not verbatim, but a close transliteration) that "It will provide an effective strait jacket for that noisy shop-keeper, Harry Truman." Also:

As well as being an implicit threat (through Sputnik [especially the large and massive Sputnik 3], demonstrating its core stage's size, and the missile's ability to drop a larger payload anywhere on Earth) and an explicit threat (through its basing as an ICBM; full basing included having two R-7s set up on the Tyuratam pads, but we did the same thing at Vandenberg with Atlas ICBMs until the silo and above-ground "coffin" launchers were all ready), the R-7s and their launch vehicle derivatives were meant to convey a message--which was physically demonstrated and suggested, as well as overtly expressed--to the rest of the world:

"The U.S.S.R. has superior political, economic, educational, and industrial systems, as our huge rockets in orbit, our satellites, our orbiting cosmonauts, and our lunar and planetary probes demonstrate. [In October 1960, a Soviet ship carrying the Premier also had aboard exhibits pertaining to their Mars probes, none of which were shown or even mentioned after those earliest Mars launch attempts failed.] We can also, using our rockets and our ships and aircraft, project power anywhere in the world to defend ourselves and our allies, if necessary. The future belongs to Communism, not the Capitalism espoused by the West. Join us to go forward, together and in peace, to a better and egalitarian world." (The U.S., of course, also "sold" its plan for a better future--including its ability and willingness to protect its friends, if need be--to the rest of the world through missiles, rockets, and space flight, which was one of the reasons behind the Apollo program.) But:

Technological progress--as Arthur C. Clarke pointed out in "The Promise of Space" (concerning how the liquid propellant rocket, after eclipsing its solid propellant counterpart, found its unquestioned supremacy being challenged by it)--has a curious way of doubling back on itself. For decades, the ICBM was considered the "ultimate weapon." But eventually it was realized that it has a serious flaw--it "is its own calling card," making it obvious to an enemy where it was launched, and inviting a retaliatory strike against that place (or against the suspected launching country, if the launch point is in an ocean), and:

Further progress in the miniaturization of nuclear warheads, jet engines, and electronics (including terrain-following radar systems that could be used at very low altitudes) made U.S. military planners realize, in the 1970s, that nuclear-armed cruise missiles, far more evasive than their large, 1950s-vintage predecessors, were feasible. This realization came after after a false start, called SCAD (Subsonic Cruise Armed Decoy), a bomber-launched decoy missile that was similar in function to the old Quail decoy missile--it was to make successful bomber penetration of enemy territory more likely by simulating the radar return of a B-52, forcing the enemy to divide his attention and resources. SCAD was to be nuclear-armed so that an enemy couldn't afford to ignore it even if he discovered that it was a decoy. Then:

The performance capabilities (long range, low-altitude operation below radar coverage, low thermal and acoustic emissions from its miniature turbofan engine) of SCAD--which was very similar in design to the AGM-86A ALCM (Air-Launched Cruise Missile)--soon led planners to the conclusion that the SCAD decoy would be a very effective stand-off launched weapon in its own right, which bombers could launch even without penetrating enemy airspace, in many cases. In addition:

Even if such a missile was seen by someone in the targeted country (or in a place outside it, somewhere along the missile's highly-circuitous flight path), a report of the sighting, which would be very brief due to the missile's high speed and low altitude--even if it included the missile's exact direction--would be useless, since the missile could have come from--and could be ultimately going to--any point in the distance, at any azimuth along the witness's horizon (and more than likely, far beyond the witness's horizon, both "coming" and "going").

The only value of a sighting report would be qualitative; at least one cruise missile (one of, likely, many more such missiles, quite possibly nuclear-armed) was flying in that region, going from and to somewhere (and given the likely confusion of the witness [unless he or she was a highly-qualified military observer and aircraft spotter, which would be statistically unlikely], and the confusion that would likely ensue in the military chain of command, such chaos could be at least partially helpful to the launching nation). Such modern cruise missiles, unlike ballistic missiles, are also plausibly deniable (at least until they start hitting their targets--such time intervals can be militarily useful). As well:

Because several nations now possess them--and market them to other countries, in some cases (without nuclear warheads, of course), identifying the party that launched a cruise missile that was reported by a witness wouldn't necessarily be a simple, clear-cut operation (including because non-U.S. ground-launched ones exist). Depending on the part of the world that was involved, the launching party might not even be a nation.
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  #34  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
I started several times to post something similar to the two above posts but didn't have the time or tact to complete it. I agree, while the Navajo may not have been a stand-alone success, the R&D that went into it was an integral part of our development of both military and civilian capabilities. In that regard, it was as cool as it looked at launch.
It was also a sort of premonition of the Space Shuttle. In his 1967 book, "American Space Exploration: The First Decade," William Roy Shelton (whose 1968 companion 'first decade' book about Soviet space exploration is also very good) wrote about the Navaho (on page 17) that:

"I never watched a Navaho countdown without feeling that when we do send men, mail and freight regularly through space, we will do it with a combination roughly resembling the basic Navaho." And then:

"Despite the fact that most launches ended in spectacular pyrotechnic explosions, the American intercontinental ballistic missile program received valuable information from the Navahos." The one-and-only Navaho round at the Cape is also of interest to me for a personal reason:

My late friend Gary Moore, who worked at Cape Canaveral during his years at Bell Telephone (he not uncommonly saw Wernher von Braun there, and--along with many other folks there--enjoyed cocktails made using "re-allocated" Redstone WALC [water-ethyl alcohol] rocket fuel), was one of the Bell Telephone employees who collected Navaho parts after failed launches, which often landed on the telephone wires. There was--and hopefully, still is--a plaque or sign at or near the Navaho display that expressed thanks to them (and also, I think, to FP & L--Florida Power & Light--employees) for recovering the Navaho parts and giving them to the museum, making the unique Navaho display round possible. It's a sort of memorial to him, and to everyone else who collected the Navaho parts for the museum.
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  #35  
Old 04-11-2019, 10:14 AM
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Ah, Gary Moore. Great Irish guitarist that played with Thin Lizzy for a while. I guess he phoned his performances in when he worked for Bell Telephone.
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  #36  
Old 04-11-2019, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
That was cool how the launch pad arms pushed the missile away horizontally and the guidance system kept it true.
Yes--and imagine what flying a piloted one (had such a version been built) would have been like! If one booster stopped firing, or even faltered significantly in thrust output (which might have happened, if other rounds were flown--solid boosters could have helped there), the stack would have undergone a decidedly "messy" RUD (Rapid Unscheduled Disassembly)! Also:

Burya's time has, in a sense, now come. High-subsonic, jet-powered (mostly using miniature turbofan engines, although a few use miniature turbojet engines), and nuclear-armed cruise missiles are well-established strategic and tactical weapons. Conventionally-armed ones are also common, and both nuclear- and conventionally-armed types can be air-launched (from both bombers and fighters), submarine- and surface ship-launched, and--again now, as was the case in the past--ground-launched, but now:

Hypersonic cruise missiles have become feasible. They include rocket-boosted, air-breathing missiles (using ramjet or scramjet [supersonic combustion ramjet] power for the Mach 5+ cruise), and also hypersonic boost-glide missiles that are boosted by large--usually multi-stage--rockets that are similar to (or even derived from) ballistic missiles. Russia and India (among other countries, including France, Australia, and Japan) are very interested in hypersonic cruise missiles, which are maneuverable, difficult to counter (because of their maneuverability, as well as their great speed), and can reach their targets much more rapidly than can subsonic cruise missiles. The U.S. is also working on such weapons--and on defenses against hypersonic missiles (see: http://www.google.com/search?ei=HFi...j38.L402xsSXndU ). As well:

Although it wasn't a hypersonic cruise missile, the Soviet Gnom ("Gnome") ICBM, under development by the Makeyev Design Bureau until the death of Boris Shavyrin, the engineer who conceived of its unusual propulsion system (see: http://www.astronautix.com/g/gnom.html ), would have used an air-assisted rocket (a ducted rocket) first stage, which significantly reduced the missile's size and weight for its payload and range. (A sub-scale test version, the PR-90, was flown, and it worked well: http://www.astronautix.com/p/pr-90.html ). Plus:

This type of solid motor has also been studied by Israel for the first stage of an F-15-launched satellite carrier rocket, the MSLV (Micro Satellite Launch Vehicle, see: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdo...p=rep1&type=pdf ). While opinion about the military utility of hypersonic cruise missiles is divided (some analysts think that--while possible to build--they are "more hype than hypersonic"), for at least some specific designs or vehicle sizes the Gnom, PR-90, or Israeli MSLV ducted rocket motors might be advantageous.
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
Ah, Gary Moore. Great Irish guitarist that played with Thin Lizzy for a while. I guess he phoned his performances in when he worked for Bell Telephone.
He wasn't a singer, but he *was* an accomplished organist; he loved the Hammond Organ Company's instruments, and had several of them around his house--a B2, a B3, and an X66, plus Leslie tone cabinets to go with them. [He also witnessed the B-52 crash--with four hydrogen bombs--at Thule Air Force Base in Greenland, as I chronicled here: http://coldwar-c4i.net/BombAlarm/Thule.html .] (When I watched old repeat episodes of the original "Star Trek" series on his large TV set--whose audio came through two Leslie tone cabinets made for the X66; he had a switch that enabled either the TV or the organ to be output through them--I could hear background U.S.S. Enterprise bridge audio circuit speech that I had never heard before. The sound effects were similarly enhanced, having more audio range and acoustic "components" than I'd ever heard through a regular small built-in TV speaker.) Also:

He could play the Theremin (the unusual electronic instrument that one plays using both hands, but without actually ^touching^ it), and he had built one for himself from plans in an old magazine article (below are links to examples of Theremin music, as well as to a film of its inventor, the Russian Leon Theremin, playing one). Plus:

Gary also--in 1969--wrote, narrated, produced, and sold--through Sears and other department stores--an LP record ("A Journey to the Moon: The Historic Flight of Apollo 11"), for which he created all of the 'spacey,' futuristic sound effects, using the draw bars on his Hammond X66 organ. He created an uninterrupted--by reporters (he remembered constantly yelling, "Shut up, Walter!" at interruption-prone Walter Cronkite of CBS)--complete audio record of the mission, by simultaneously recording the ABC, NBC, and CBS Apollo 11 coverage on three professional (using 1" tape, I think) videotape machines, whose audio he then blended, time-compressed (to remove "dead air" and commercials), and edited as needed, in order to fit it to the LP record's program format. If anyone has one of his records (its product number was CVC-1 [the first product from his firm, Commercial Video Company]), it's a rare find! Below are the Theremin links:

“Lunar Rhapsody” by Dr. Samuel Hoffman (see: www.youtube.com/watch?v=dawxnlRTgE8 )

“Radar Blues” by Les Baxter (see: www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih8AoglYl4E )

“Lunar Rhapsody” by Les Baxter (see: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pMItiGdtW0 )

Here is a video (with audio, of course) of Leon Theremin (its inventor) playing it himself (see: www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5qf9O6c20o )
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  #38  
Old 04-11-2019, 12:13 PM
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Now that was a cool sidebar!
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Old 04-11-2019, 12:26 PM
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Now that was a cool sidebar!
Thank you! Gary Moore (1939 - 1996) was one of those people who, looking at their accomplishments and life experiences, make one wonder: "How could one person do so many things--and cram so much experience--into one lifetime?" (Art Smith [1917 - 1993], the Curator of the Miami Space Transit Planetarium where I worked from 1989 to 1993, was another; he knew Robert Goddard, Harlow Shapley [who determined our location in the Milky Way by charting the globular clusters], Wernher von Braun, Clyde Tombaugh, Martin Caidin, most of the astronauts, and had been to numerous places and done all kinds of things pertinent to astronomy, aviation [he was also a Pan Am pilot], and space flight.)
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Old 04-11-2019, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
That was cool how the launch pad arms pushed the missile away horizontally and the guidance system kept it true.


I had to re-watch the video a few times when I first saw that . . . I thought I might have imagined it.
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