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  #191  
Old 01-28-2015, 05:25 PM
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STATIC JUDGING!!! I would not have thought of that! Awesome. But we'll need to work up some judging criterion.

Just off the top of my head, I would go with a "Lifting Body Biathlon"
1: Static Judging
2: Flight Duration

Maybe make it a "Grass Roots" competition where we just build them and fly them at our sectional launches for a couple of years, then present to NAR.

For a more "Extreme" event, we make it a Triathlon
1: Time to build a flyable X-24/HL-20/X-RV at the event starting with just parts.
2: Static Judging
3: Flight Duration
(Yes, I've gone barking mad, but we do need some fun events)

I agree on the Squirrel Works X-RV . Also "Official" Scans of the shrouds for X-24 and HL-20 need to be posted on the NAR contest flight web site - assuming we can get permission from the owners of the designs.

To be honest, it's pretty hard to mess up an X-24/HL-20. It's MUCH easier to buy the X-RV kit than it is to build from scratch, so that $10 kit saves you some time and frustration. Also, building from scratch does not save very much money over the X-RV. One thing to keep in mind is that above "B" impulse, one needs to consider some enhanced structure to prevent the dreaded fold-n-burn.

As an aside Doug, I agree on the Comanche 3. VERY cool to build and REALLY cool to fly, but it will bite you. I have seen a lot of them do the dirt dive.
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  #192  
Old 01-28-2015, 08:31 PM
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Glad to see you are back Ironnerd. The lifting bodies were favorites of mine when I was younger and they are responsible for being a BAR. And this thread also had a lot to do with it. I have enjoyed this thread too much. Thanks for all the posts, I think I have built every X-24 variation that you posted. You are something of a guru to me.

You being an expert on the Bug, I have an idea that I would like to get your opinion on. What do you think about a 2-stage X-24? What do you think the chances of this working are? Do you think it would stand up to a C on the first stage and B on the second?

All comments welcome.
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  #193  
Old 01-28-2015, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidShelleen
Glad to see you are back Ironnerd. The lifting bodies were favorites of mine when I was younger and they are responsible for being a BAR. And this thread also had a lot to do with it. I have enjoyed this thread too much. Thanks for all the posts, I think I have built every X-24 variation that you posted. You are something of a guru to me.

You being an expert on the Bug, I have an idea that I would like to get your opinion on. What do you think about a 2-stage X-24? What do you think the chances of this working are? Do you think it would stand up to a C on the first stage and B on the second?

All comments welcome.




One of the most original ideas I have seen in a while... I say fly it and post a flight report.

- r_r
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  #194  
Old 01-28-2015, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Yeah, the STEM approach is a good one... they're REALLY emphasizing that in the schools now, and name ANY other hobby that has as much directly-applicable STEM education value as rocketry??
Indeed, that's another selling point--as G. Harry Stine pointed out in his "Handbook of Model Rocketry," model rockets are among the few objects encountered in everyday life that demonstrate all three of Newton's Laws of Motion, which is great for physics classes as well as for other STEM courses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Good luck in your search... Parks are challenging flying fields to get and keep nowdays, and of course NOBODY wants to share "their space" with anybody doing anything different... there's always going to be the dog people or the soccer people or whomever who generally will have a total sh!t hemorrhage if you 'scare their varmints' or whatever... increasingly they are adding sports fields or soccer fields or whatever, usually in about the worst place possible (to take up as much open space as possible... )

Later! OL JR
If a reservation system is worked out, that problem can be avoided. I've read about model airplane and model rocket flyers doing that in municipalities where the parks' sports fields can be reserved (a book I have on R/C sailplanes shows this being done at a park, where the club members had put up their club's "This Area Reserved for Club Fliers Only" signs). This, and your comment, also inspired an idea:

To address the noise complaints of other park users, the model airplane manufacturers introduced a class of C/L (Control Line) and R/C models with muffler-equipped glow engines, in a new category called "park flyer"; such models are quiet, slower-flying, and unobjectionable to other park visitors (electric-powered model airplanes are park flyers by definition). Likewise:

The model rocket manufacturers could designate those models of theirs that can fly comfortably within typical park boundaries (particularly on quieter, lower-impulse motors) as park flyers; numerous existing model rocket kits have these characteristics. They could also offer new rocket kits that are specifically intended to be flown in such places (such rockets are also good for school programs). The Estes mini launcher (the one with an 18" launch rod and an easily-disassembled, wooden dowel-legged tripod), and the 13 mm & 18 mm motor-powered rockets that can fly from it, can easily be carried to and from parks (or schools) on foot, by bicycle, or on a bus, in a range box or in a large fabric department store shopping bag (the kind made of stiff fabric, with multiple pockets inside it).
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  #195  
Old 01-28-2015, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosko_racer
One of the most original ideas I have seen in a while... I say fly it and post a flight report.

- r_r
Seconded! It's been a long time since I've seen a multi-stage model with a gliding first stage (Centuri's Black Widow), and only Rob Edmonds, to my knowledge, has ever produced a two-stage boost-glider kit in which *both* stages glide!
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  #196  
Old 01-28-2015, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironnerd
STATIC JUDGING!!! I would not have thought of that! Awesome. But we'll need to work up some judging criterion.

Just off the top of my head, I would go with a "Lifting Body Biathlon"
1: Static Judging
2: Flight Duration

Maybe make it a "Grass Roots" competition where we just build them and fly them at our sectional launches for a couple of years, then present to NAR.

For a more "Extreme" event, we make it a Triathlon
1: Time to build a flyable X-24/HL-20/X-RV at the event starting with just parts.
2: Static Judging
3: Flight Duration
(Yes, I've gone barking mad, but we do need some fun events)

I agree on the Squirrel Works X-RV . Also "Official" Scans of the shrouds for X-24 and HL-20 need to be posted on the NAR contest flight web site - assuming we can get permission from the owners of the designs.

To be honest, it's pretty hard to mess up an X-24/HL-20. It's MUCH easier to buy the X-RV kit than it is to build from scratch, so that $10 kit saves you some time and frustration. Also, building from scratch does not save very much money over the X-RV. One thing to keep in mind is that above "B" impulse, one needs to consider some enhanced structure to prevent the dreaded fold-n-burn.

As an aside Doug, I agree on the Comanche 3. VERY cool to build and REALLY cool to fly, but it will bite you. I have seen a lot of them do the dirt dive.
Those sound like workable rules. Also, this could have application beyond the NAR. A challenging small-field/breezy-day boost-glider event such as this would also be useful in the world of FAI international flying, where their sailplane-like B/Gs can be grounded in conditions in which lifting bodies could safely--and effectively--fly. The fact that lifting bodies are low L/D gliders is no slight against them, nor would it detract from the excitement of competition, because every 0.1 second of flight duration for a model rocket lifting body is a hard-earned 0.1 second!
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  #197  
Old 01-28-2015, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidShelleen
Glad to see you are back Ironnerd. The lifting bodies were favorites of mine when I was younger and they are responsible for being a BAR. And this thread also had a lot to do with it. I have enjoyed this thread too much. Thanks for all the posts, I think I have built every X-24 variation that you posted. You are something of a guru to me.

You being an expert on the Bug, I have an idea that I would like to get your opinion on. What do you think about a 2-stage X-24? What do you think the chances of this working are? Do you think it would stand up to a C on the first stage and B on the second?

All comments welcome.
That's an intriguing model! With an A10-0T in the first stage (if it can lift the vehicle with a live second stage motor), its lower mass when expended might improve the glide duration of the first stage. Also:

Here are M2-type lifting bodies (see: http://www.jleslie48.com/gallery_models_apollo.html and http://www.wired.com/2013/03/a-nove...staged-reentry/ - they're from this group https://www.google.com/images?hl=en...Cw&ved=0CCQQsAQ of links), and here is the full set of Google citations for "model rocket lifting bodies" (see: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...le+Search&gbv=2 ). Plus, here is Centuri's classic Tech Report TIR-24, "Model Rocket Lifting Bodies" (see: http://www.spacemodeling.org/jimz/tr/tir-24.pdf ).
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http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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  #198  
Old 01-29-2015, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidShelleen
Glad to see you are back Ironnerd. The lifting bodies were favorites of mine when I was younger and they are responsible for being a BAR. And this thread also had a lot to do with it. I have enjoyed this thread too much. Thanks for all the posts, I think I have built every X-24 variation that you posted. You are something of a guru to me.

You being an expert on the Bug, I have an idea that I would like to get your opinion on. What do you think about a 2-stage X-24? What do you think the chances of this working are? Do you think it would stand up to a C on the first stage and B on the second?

All comments welcome.


That is beautiful! As stable as the bug is, I am betting it will fly just fine. I did some math a while back and I think the bug can be staged by simply taping the motors together, without any added airframe for the booster. Not NAR-friendly, but functional.

Now that I have seen it the way you did it... I gotta try it.

Awesome work.

To the contest aspect. The X-24 is a LOT of fun for a small field. My club tried X-24 drag races. It was REALLY cool to see a couple of these fly at one time, but it was almost impossible to keep track of which model was which since they cross each others paths so much and are so fast on the way down. Still it was a real crowd-pleaser. The nice thing is that they are really easy to build, and if you mess it up so that it won't glide, it will just tumble. Even if it nose-dives, it has so much drag that it returns like a shuttlecock ([art of a provisional NAR event).

I'm actually looking around for some 18mm rubber or foam balls to use as nosecones to make it more shuttlecock-like. I tried styrofoam - too easy to damage and it makes trimming for glide a real pain.
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  #199  
Old 01-29-2015, 07:54 AM
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Someone should boost a bug on top of a Semroc Hydra 7 loaded with 7 C's. That would be a site to see! I wonder if the CG would balance out to make the rig stable.
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  #200  
Old 01-29-2015, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STRMan
Someone should boost a bug on top of a Semroc Hydra 7 loaded with 7 C's. That would be a site to see! I wonder if the CG would balance out to make the rig stable.

That would be a lot of smoke and noise for a pretty short-duration glide... So I like the idea. It would look REALLY weird though... Not bad, just weird.

Back in "the day" Centuri boosted the bug on top of a 1/45 scale Little Joe. The Bug was motorless and popped off like a nose cone. But with a little effort, it could be flown as a powered upper stage.

I have pondered using my aging, and rarely flown Estes Rubicon as a "Bug Booster".

KIDSHELLEEN did you just put the normal bulkhead in place and cut the shroud off at the front? Cause... I have a couple that are missing front enclosures and nose-cones... [unsettling laughter].
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