Thanks guys!

Blackshire, can you name those parks for me. I'll contact the good people out there and see how they run things. Maybe the people here in Atlanta can learn something from New Mexico (although, the terrain is a little different).

The field I have looked at (and used) is fine for the small stuff, and for X-24's on B-power ( PLENTY of room). It is also a part-time R/C plane field complete with wind sock. Of course the local Parks and Rec want to put in a play-scape in the middle of it, so I'll start looking for another one.

I will fill out the PRC form again, as I think staging is enjoyable, challenging, and has left out of contests for too long now.

BUT... although I needed to vent, I don't wanna move 'dis here thread too far off topic.

My record flight time for a "bug" is just over 13 seconds. Can any of you'se guys top that?

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John Adams
"There is a lot of rocketry under 20ns"

"Even in vain do they..." [fill in the blank *any* activity] Such folks miss the whole point of hobbies, which is to HAVE FUN (even when contests are involved), not "exceed the Joneses." :-( You and your fellow fun-flyers shared the spirit of what it's all about--"*good* on all o' ye!"

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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Here are some (I believe Albuquerque is the one with the "full-service" recroc program, but other listed cities permit rocket flying in their parks): https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...le+Search&gbv=2 ALSO:

Another statistic (the NAR may have it somewhere on their website www.nar.org ) could be used on "Nervous Nellie" parks & recreation officials. This number may be larger by now, but something like 600 million-plus model rockets have been launched since 1957. You could say (nicely, of course): "When is the last time you heard or saw a news report about a model rocket accident?" The official will probably not be able to name any, or if s/he can name one, it will almost certainly involve a *mis-use* of the products (which you could point out). Then you could show him or her the number of launches since 1957 and ask, "600 million-plus launches and no accidents worth reporting [or one, which involved mis-use of the products] over nearly six decades...what does that tell you about the safety of the hobby?" AND:

In his "Handbook of Model Rocketry," G. Harry Stine discussed the relative safety of model rocketry as compared with other recreational activities (including ones that are engaged in at public parks), and all of them are, at best, rather distant seconds to model rocketry in terms of their safety. You could also mention how many model rockets you and your family and friends have flown and for how long, and how none of you have ever even had any close calls, much less accidents that caused injury or property damage. In addition:

Perhaps before you presented that statistic, you could show him or her print-outs from the "Estes Model Rocketry Manual" (see: http://ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/estesmrm.html ) and the "Alpha Book of Model Rocketry" (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/nostalgia/alpha.pdf ), of the pages that discuss the hobby's safety and how model rocketry was developed to provide a safe and educational alternative to the often-deadly and frequently-maiming, crippling, and blinding home-made "basement bomber" youth rocketry activities. (As well, the Ninfinger Productions Model Rocketry section [see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ ] includes scans other safety publications by Estes and other model rocket companies.) Plus:

Please *do* approach the NAR again about the Staged Altitude event, and please tell them that NAR Senior Member 54895 SR, James Jason Wentworth in Fairbanks, Alaska (who *will* "re-up" his membership as soon as he gets the money, in a few days), also likes the idea of a Staged Altitude event! Regarding the X-24 "Bug" glide duration record (that could *also* be a challenging event [and perfect for small fields and/or breezy days], now that you've inspired ruminations about it...), I could beat -any- duration record--with a big upward-aimed fan! :-)

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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

BLACKSHIRE: Thanks for the information. I will put it to good use.

If I could figure out a bullet-proof way to define a "Lifting body boost glider" I would put it in as an event. I don't mind doing it as a committee-submission. I just need a solid definition that can include both X-24 and HL-20. I'm concerned that it would end up sounding like the rules go formula one racing.

Perhaps the contestants would have to use a specific pdf for the shroud and the bulkhead. Then just an imaginary box it must fit into (A x B x C). Just thinking in text.

__________________
John Adams
"There is a lot of rocketry under 20ns"

You're welcome. You might even be able--based on municipal pride--to persuade the Atlanta parks & receation folks to "keep up with the Joneses" in Albuquerque, by establishing their own park recroc program (couching it as something to keep kids out of trouble and encourage their interest in math and science in school [your local Boys' and Girls' Clubs and 4-H Clubs might help, too] would be what they would want to hear, and it's also true!). Regarding the lifting body competition:

Maybe as an introductory provisional event, it could make use of X-24 and HL-20 models (all of the various available body wrap decor schemes and finned, "semi-finless," and finless design variations [as shown in Centuri's "Model Rocket Lifting Bodies" Tech Report TIR-24--it's the top link *here*: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en...0.0.i8f__M8trWY ] would allow a lot of variety among the models). Your 3-D "box" sounds like a workable start for a full-blown set of rules for the event.

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

I WAS a NAR member back in the 80's, when I was in junior high/high school. I dropped out of NAR when I dropped out of rocketry for about 10-15 years from the early 90's til the mid 2000's... NAR membership wasn't cheap even back then, but the magazine was good, and it wasn't TOO expensive, so I joined up. The main difference back then was the insurance was NOT MANDATORY for membership and if you wanted it you paid an extra $26 bucks a year to get the insurance. IIRC my junior membership back then was like $14 bucks a year.

I never flew competition, was never particularly interested in it... never attended a NAR function until just a few years ago. When I became a BAR, I joined briefly (one year) but found the $60 membership fees excessive... the insurance is now MANDATORY and added into that total, and I don't particularly need or want it-- I fly off my own farm (in fact allow a couple clubs to use our farms for launches) and since I don't compete, I don't need a NAR number for that either, so I dropped it. Just can't afford to give a quarter to a third of my "yearly hobby budget" to NAR for a magazine that isn't anywhere NEAR as good as it used to be IMHO... (well, unless you're a competitions or HPR junkie-- then there's PLENTY in SR for you!)

I like NAR and support their aims, and yeah I'd probably buy the magazine anyway if I could just subscribe to it without having to pop for an expensive membership that I don't really need. I've suggested as much when the former NAR Prez put out the word looking for moneymaking ideas... never heard a word-- guess they didn't like that suggestion...

Made a different suggestion that actually they ended up finally doing, here a half-dozen years (or thereabouts) later... When they were asking for input for moneymaking ideas and such, I sent in a suggestion saying they should offer all the old "Model Rocketeer" and "American Spacemodeling" magazines on a DVD-ROM so that folks can read all the old magazines and articles, without having to spend hundreds or thousands of bucks chasing collector's items from decades ago in the form of the original magazines. IOW, make that information available to a whole new generation of rocketeers, for research, historical, as well as information that can be applicable even today, like designs and methods or techniques which are equally as valid now as they were when first published. I pointed out that "FARM SHOW" magazine, one of the only farm magazines I will actually pay a subscription to get (I get several "free of charge" thanks to the heavy advertising and yellow dog journalism found in them worshipping their advertiser's products, which is exactly the reason I WON'T subscribe to them-- I don't like the biased coverage). Anyway, "FARM SHOW" released every issue of their magazine on DVD-ROM awhile back and periodically releases "updated" versions to include the latest issues... They also indexed their DVD-ROM so you can look for various subjects by topics and thus read up on a particular issue and any information published, ideas, designs, modifications, updates, new offerings, etc. published in the magazine regardless of year throughout their entire print run. I suggested that, if the time and talent was available, that might be a great "value added" thing to add to the DVD-ROM and thus entice folks to be willing to buy the thing, and at a higher price...

I got a curt response "thanking me for my suggestion" from the then-NAR Prez but immediately launching into a "are you volunteering to do the work?" speech, stressing their limited manpower and resources and all of that. I wrote back that while I would be WILLING to do the work, I sadly had neither the equipment (high quality scanner, and various computer programs) NOR the talent, skills, or expertise in how to properly make such a DVD-ROM... let alone all the magazines... (I have some dating back to the first post-Challenger issue in 1986, but that's it). I don't know enough about computers to do the job properly, so NO, I wasn't volunteering, but CERTAINLY there are OTHER NAR members who WOULD have the talents, skills, and abilities to do the project if given access to the materials (someone's magazine collection or NAR back-issues). I then received another VERY curt response that basically was saying, "IF YOU'RE NOT VOLUNTEERING TO DO IT, THEN STFU..."

Certainly didn't endear NAR HQ or leadership to me, that's for sure... I just trashed it and thought to myself, "you asked-- so screw you and go pound sand for all I care..."

Anyway, just as happy w/o NAR membership as with it... Couldn't help but smirk a bit when I saw NARTS carrying CD-ROMs with the old issues available on them...

Later! OL JR

__________________
The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Sounds like more than a few HPR types I've run across...

If you're not "suitably impressed" to the point of fawning over them and their expensive rockets, they can get downright p!$$y with you... That, or they feel compelled to point out "oh, I use bigger motors than your flying as IGNITORS" or other stupid stuff like that... Or they go on about how much more 'bad-@ss' they are than you because they fly HPR and you don't... or how much more "scientific" or "difficult" their bigger "whoosh-pop" is than your "little whoosh-pop".

For the most part, all I can see is the difference in cost, with a few exceptions, that's about it.

Not ALL HPR guys are that way, but enough of them ARE that I don't usually like to hang around with guys unless they fly at least SOME LPR/MPR rockets...

Later! OL JR

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

I don't think you can come up with a set of truly fair rules without writing the F1 rule book.

Instead, I think you have to take the approach that it's a _fun_ event - ie, not cutthroat NAR competition - and put together a reasonable set of rules and then let it happen. You might include a static display judging before any flights, then have judges score the flights (rather than having altitude rules, etc).

But do make sure you allow for the Squirrel Works X-RV (IIRC). It's very close to the X-24.

BTW, it sounds like a fun event

Doug

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YORF member #11

JR, I can think of a few jerk HPR fliers, but there are a few jerks in every hobby, at all levels.

My experiences at big HPR events have been pretty much the opposite of what you describe. I've stood in line at the safety check table and had big time HPR fliers tell me what a great paint job I had on my 2" diameter upscale Midget, or wonder how I was gonna get all four of those 1st stage motors lit in my Uber Tuber.

And when I flew a full stack (D-C-C) Comanche at LDRS a few years ago, I got quite a few kudos from the folks there who understand what a challenging flight that is even if it doesn't use an L9000 motor.

The sport has a broad spectrum of appeal. But we're a fairly small hobby. So I've always felt it was in our best interests to include everyone. And, fortunately for me, I can't think of any flight I've ever had where I felt like someone was condescending to me. So knock wood for me.

But that may also be because I just refuse to let some jerk bother me

Doug

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YORF member #11

Yeah, the STEM approach is a good one... they're REALLY emphasizing that in the schools now, and name ANY other hobby that has as much directly-applicable STEM education value as rocketry??

Good luck in your search... Parks are challenging flying fields to get and keep nowdays, and of course NOBODY wants to share "their space" with anybody doing anything different... there's always going to be the dog people or the soccer people or whomever who generally will have a total sh!t hemorrhage if you 'scare their varmints' or whatever... increasingly they are adding sports fields or soccer fields or whatever, usually in about the worst place possible (to take up as much open space as possible... )

Later! OL JR

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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!