Political subject - bypass it if it's not your thing.

There has been a long thread on other forums on the matter of Kosdon and his total lack of required state permits for almost 2 decades now. TRA's policy is to circle the wagons and get his back, presumably because they have been "all in" on Kosdon for many years now, and the California state OSFM has this whole thing on the radar screen.

Both already posted to rocketryplanet.com

Here is what CA OSFM has to say in official correspondence:

July 2010

The California State Fire Marshal's Office does not grant exemptions to the use,
manufacture and sale of a consumer rocket motor for any reason if it has not been
approved. All motors used in the State of California must be reviewed approved and
have the registration seal on each individual motor. If any motor does not have a
seal it can be seized and later destroyed. . . .

I am the only one at my agency that reviews and grants any approval of a firework
or pyrotechnic item. If any item(s) are approved I send out a wet signature letter
verifying the approval, I can assure you that Mr. Kosdon has not received any
approval from my agency under my signature as of this date. I have contacted
Mr. Kosdon and advised him of his situation as far as being out of compliance with
California Law, he has quoted sections of the United States Constitution advising
me to the contrary in as far as his need for California license requirements. I
have had a California license application sent to his residence and to my knowledge
he has not responded.

My advise to you and any other individuals who may be considering purchasing a Kosdon
motor be advised that there will now be unannounced inspections at the various venues
where the launching of rockets will be conducted, its unfortunate that some individuals
within a very respected hobby need to be monitored closer due to non-compliance of the
law. Any person found to be in possession of any unapproved motor will be cited and
their motors seized.

Anthony J. Guevara
Investigator/Hazardous Devices Technician
Fireworks/Explosives Program Coordinator
California State Fire Marshal's Office
1131 S Street
Sacramento,CA 95811
Office # (916) 327-8278
Cell # (916) 812-4499
Fax # (916) 445-8458

Here is what TRA has to say in official correspondence:

Some considerations to your points:

1) We do in fact already have a requirement that manufacturers obey federal, state and local laws - it is spelled out in NFPA 1125. This was discussed to a great extent on both the RP and TRA forums. What I think people are having a hard time understanding is where do we conclude that any manufacturer is not doing so? TRA has taken the position that expressions of opinions from an AHJ cannot be considered "violations" of law. If we do, it's rather like accepting the word of a tough cop that some suspect is "guilty as sin" and then treating that person like they have been convicted of a crime. I appreciate that Guevara has expressed that Kosdon isn't in full compliance, and I also know that Frank is, has been, and is continuing to work to fulfill what the CA OSFM wants him to do (and pay). I don't think any of us are looking for Guevara to go issuing fines to Frank or preferring legal charges against him, especially since it looks like they are working things out, but the lack of such actions by the AHJ makes it untenable for us to treat Kosdon as "illegal."

So what TRA/TMT is basically saying is that if the fed/state/local AHJ has taken some enforcement action, which has resulted in a documented confirmation of illegality, then we have the 1125 verbiage to consider. To act on any expression of opinion from an AHJ, without that AHJ enforcing their own "laws", is tantamount to penalizing someone through innuendo or verbal accusations. The last I heard, that wasn't considered much in the way of "due process" in the USA. And this would also be tantamount to TRA/TMT inventing some ad hoc policy, inconsistent with expressed policy.

2) I think we may more or less agree on the above, but also to your point: "However, I think that a policy that results in decertification if a manufacturer is found (not by TRA or NAR but by AHJs after due process) to be manufacturing illegally would defuse many of the critics."

Steve, the actions to be taken would be entirely in keeping with TRA's structure of empowering committees reporting to the TRA BoD. In the case of TMT, if real due-process-based evidence of such illegalities would be brought forth to TMT or the TRA BoD (e.g. US Rockets' DOT sanctions), the committee chair and the BoD would have a dialog on what actions should be taken, what timeframes, etc. It is not entirely feasible to put together a detailed policy, per se, since the details of the issue could vary distinctly, and should rightly be considered case by case.

Again, such a process has already taken place in the past - and everyone knows or should know it - with Kosdon, back when LEMPs were required. Consistent with the above, his situation was evaluted by TMT and the TRA BoD, and Frank was given an opportunity to get his LEMP, only to refuse to do so. The TRA BoD and TMT then agreed that those certs would end, but a grace period would be granted for flyers to use their Kosdon inventory before the certs were voided.

Thus, there really shouldn't be any mystery about what TRA and TMT would/does do in a clear case of not meeting the requirements set forth in the TMT policy for certified manufacturers, including the 1125 legality verbiage. An explicit policy would say nothing more than evidence of non-conformity to the requirements will be evaluated by TMT and the TRA BoD, and resulting actions would be taken commensurate with the circumstances.

What I really think is happening with some people is that they have a foregone conclusion about Kosdon, a forgone conclusion about TRA, and facts & expressiosn from the TRA leadership mean little, because they don't match these people's perceptions or biased expectations of what should happen.

Please feel free to quote me from this message.

Regards,
Ken Good

Here are selected segments from past official news releases of note:


http://www.rocketryplanet.com/forum...89&postcount=56

Again, such a process has already taken place in the past - and everyone knows or should know it - with Kosdon, back when LEMPs were required. Consistent with the above, his situation was evaluted by TMT and the TRA BoD, and Frank was given an opportunity to get his LEMP, only to refuse to do so.

The TRA BoD and TMT then agreed that those certs would end, but a grace period would be granted for flyers to use their Kosdon inventory before the certs were voided.

Kosdon and Kosdon East actively working to meet deadline
2000 Archived News by Paul Robinson (RIP 2010)
Tuesday, March 07, 2000

At the core of the Kosdon certification issues were the lack of West coast facilities which further
complicated the federal permitting process for manufacturing.

Back to the future: Kosdon TRM motors to make return
2009 Archived News by Planet News
Tuesday, May 26, 2009

Dr. Kosdon's Tripoli membership was suspended in March of 2002 for several claims, including breaking an agreement not to sell motors at TRA launch sites until he became "legal," the result of the then federal necessity of an LEMP, and various applications of California state law.

TMT announces recertification of 52 Kosdon TRM motors
2009 Archived News by Tripoli Motor Testing
Sunday, June 14, 2009

I am very pleased to announce official paperwork has been received from Dr. Frank Kosdon,
as required, in the effort to return his previously certified motors/reloads to the member approved list.

The below listed Kosdon Enterprises, Truly Recyclable Motor (TRM) reloads were submitted and have been verified with archival TMT and NAR S&T documentation and are approved for immediate use by Tripoli members in good standing, and for all rocketry organizations granting reciprocal approval. These motors are certified on an interim basis for one year, ending on 30 June 2010,

So rather than go on and on about my views on this, which are pretty judgemental, I will say we appear to have smoking guns here at all levels from BOD to TMT to a vendor/member. The people with ethics should absolutely speak out and demand TRA follow its own rules!

Ken Good email 3-6-10

Article II SECTION 3. DISCIPLINARY ACTION, SUSPENSION, AND REMOVAL.
"Members may be suspended or removed from the
corporation for just cause by the board of directors. Just cause includes, but is not limited to, violation of any
applicable safety code adopted by the board of directors, illegal activities, unsafe activities violative of federal,
state, or municipal statutes, laws, regulations, rules, ordinances, or the like, or acts determined by the board of
directors to be detrimental or injurious to the corporation. Disciplinary action shall be conducted in accordance
with the parliamentary procedure adopted by the board of directors of the corporation. All disciplinary action shall
be conducted and decided by the board of directors."

[No membership removals have occurred over this issue]

In the prospectus for now, for this first post.

Jerry

Anything that can be done to knock down the GESTAPO-like regulatory state of Commiefornia I'm all for.
That being said, why does Frank not challenge the status of California being able to regulate toy propellant devices above the Federal Gov't in FEDERAL court ?

Short of that, I'd make sure to fly on private land and DISALLOW them to inspect the launch without a probable cause warrant. That warrant most likely would be unfortunately easy to get in the the OVER-REGULATED GESTAPO state of Taxafornia, but it would at least give a time delay should there be any said motors without some mamby-pamby CSFM add-nothing-of-value-but-NUISANCE regulatory cost SQUEAL of approval.

I for one think it's a load of BUNK that motors need ANY sort of certification or approval AT ALL from ANYONE or ANY AGENCY.
Caveat Emptor, PERIOD. Let the FREE MARKET decide the good motors from the bad without ANY gubmint or other regulatory agency interference that almost NEVER is needed or wanted by the majority of participants.

I LIKE the fact that Frank REFUSED to get some stinkin' LEMP, which proved to be the right stance since the court ruling proved the entire BATFE premise that APCP is a regulated explosive is crapola. I actually COMMEND him on his refusal to comply with a BS requirement !

I for one would be in favor of TOTAL DEREGULATION of hobby rocketry motors, commercial or otherwise.

__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, TURMOIL, FIASCOS, and HAVOC !

CA is over-regulated and there is a process to contest it within their own guidelines. I have submitted such a request on three occasions which were fought by rocket constituencies from Estes to Aerotech to TRA to Quest. NAR was agnostic, Teleflite was in favor, U.S. Rockets was in favor, and Composite Dynamics was in favor.

Notably most of the opposition came from entities outside the state who attended meetings to make things more difficult (successfully) for CA based manufacturers.

The point my post raised above considering the law as it exists right now was TRA admonished Kosdon over CA compliance and demanded he come into compliance, yet when he did not, they recertified his motors anyway, and without testing, and without the concurrance of NAR who took the extraordinary measure of opting out of TRA's "recertifications without testing".



Which was followed contrary to the standard of conduct with:



This is in diametric opposition to the claim compliance would be required on ATF and CSFM prior to recertification. The ATF requirement was eliminated by a court judgement. The CSFM requirement was not waived, complied with, or eliminated by regulatory change or lawsuit.

These "decisions and announcements" are the source of "due process" Ken Good refers to in paragraph 1) of his letter, yet disregards it anyway.

Jerry

Let it go man.

That is a hit and run post by a one post member. The three posts I reported have not been moderated.

I posted first hand source quotes. Discuss on the topic.

I think it's kinda funny that the TRA is now trying to justify their actions with Kosdon by hiding behind the supposed legal verbage of NFPA 1125, which means nothing, considering that NFPA 1125, hasn't even been adopted in CA. California has their own set of rules, regulations and laws that govern HPR. So the TRA using it for plausible deniability is just plain wrong.

Manufacturers in CA don't have to manufacture to NFPA specs; they only have to manufacturer to CA state specs. Its up to the TRA to certify those CA state manufactured motors to NFPA 1125 specs for use in the rest of the country as NFPA is law in 48 states, excepting CA and IN.

The TRA is ignoring the fact that the NFPA codes provide for the AHJ having the final say. In other words, the TRA doesn't get to interpret the NFPA codes as they se fir for a specific state or states; its the jurisdiction of the local or state AHJ. In this case the AHJ, the CA OSFM, has publicly stated that Kosdon is not a compliant manufacturer in the state of CA. And NEVER has been.

Terry Dean

__________________
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.

Jerry,

You posted in FreeForAll. Everything there is fair game. If you don't like the comments, don't make those types of posts to begin with! People can say what they want in this area, as long as violence isn't threatened and there is no swearing.

__________________
Scott D. Hansen
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe - Your One Stop BAR Shoppe!
Ye Olde Rocket Plans - OOP Rocket Plans From 38 Companies!
Ye Olde Rocket Forum
WOOSH NAR Section #558

Paul Robinson (RIP) 3-7-00:

Kosdon and Kosdon East actively working to meet deadline
2000 Archived News by Paul Robinson (RIP 2010)
Tuesday, March 07, 2000

At the core of the Kosdon certification issues were the lack of West coast facilities which further complicated the federal permitting process for manufacturing.

[commentary: obviously inclusive of state permitting]

News Report 5-26-09:

Dr. Kosdon's Tripoli membership was suspended in March of 2002 for several claims, including breaking an agreement not to sell motors at TRA launch sites until he became "legal," the result of the then federal necessity of an LEMP, and various applications of California state law.

[commentary: obviously inclusive of state permitting]

TRA TMT news release 6-14-09:

TMT announces recertification of 52 Kosdon TRM motors
2009 Archived News by Tripoli Motor Testing
Sunday, June 14, 2009

I am very pleased to announce official paperwork has been received from Dr. Frank Kosdon, as required, in the effort to return his previously certified motors/reloads to the member approved list.

The below listed Kosdon Enterprises, Truly Recyclable Motor (TRM) reloads were submitted and have been verified with archival TMT and NAR S&T documentation and are approved for immediate use by Tripoli members in good standing, and for all rocketry organizations granting reciprocal approval. These motors are certified on an interim basis for one year, ending on 30 June 2010,

[commentary: since Kosdon Enterprises DOT paperwork is for Ventura, CA and since there is no legal manufacturing permit for Ventura, CA, there is NO possibility of legal Kosdon TRM or Kosdon Enterprises motors. Kosdon East was Paul Robinson (RIP) who after he moved from the permit site in NH, died. That compliance method went away. Kosdon by Aerotech only applies to propellants made by and shipped from Cedar City, UT. There was NO posibilty of a complaint CA based Kosdon product.]

Anthony Guevara, CSFM 7-10:

I am the only one at my agency that reviews and grants any approval of a firework or pyrotechnic item. If any item(s) are approved I send out a wet signature letter verifying the approval, I can assure you that Mr. Kosdon has not received any approval from my agency under my signature as of this date. I have contacted Mr. Kosdon and advised him of his situation as far as being out of compliance with California Law,

. . . its unfortunate that some individuals within a very respected hobby need to be monitored closer due to non-compliance of the law.

[This official clearly states Kosdon is NOT compliant with state law and has never been.]

Ken Good 7-10:

We do in fact already have a requirement that manufacturers obey federal, state and local laws - it is spelled out in NFPA 1125.

So what TRA/TMT is basically saying is that if the fed/state/local AHJ has taken some enforcement action, which has resulted in a documented confirmation of illegality, then we have the 1125 verbiage to consider.

[Ken Good, former TRA President denies that the formal statement of non-compliance with state law, from the primary State Fire Marshal Employee, has standing with TRA, despite the "documented confirmation of illegality" he states as his criterion, because there has not been a "conviction." OMG]

[Obviously the concerns about TRA behavior itself extends to the respective TMT chairs, BOD members, and participants in formal agreements, of which there are several.]

TRA bylaws:

Article II SECTION 3. DISCIPLINARY ACTION, SUSPENSION, AND REMOVAL.

Members may be suspended or removed from the corporation for just cause by the board of directors. Just cause includes, but is not limited to, violation of any applicable safety code adopted by the board of directors, illegal activities, unsafe activities violative of federal, state, or municipal statutes, laws, regulations, rules, ordinances, or the like, or acts determined by the board of directors to be detrimental or injurious to the corporation. Disciplinary action shall be conducted in accordance with the parliamentary procedure adopted by the board of directors of the corporation. All disciplinary action shall be conducted and decided by the board of directors.

[It appears all the TMT chairs since 1991, each BOD member, each TRA President, each vendor in partnership with Kosdon, or selling for Kosdon or parties to the Kosdon agreements of compliance, are all subject to removal from the corporation. That's a long list!]

Jerry Irvine 7-10:

Now that TRA has FORMALLY and PUBLICLY been informed CSFM has NO permits on file for Kosdon manufacturing site or article approvals, they have an affirmative obligation to ask Kosdon to produce such permits for motors already certified in the past. He will of course not be able to produce it. Therefore it is an indisputable conclusion Kosdon caused TRA members to be operating not in compliance with law as, all of his product ever made or shipped, cannot have been legal from the source. EVER.

TRA bylaws: Members may be suspended or removed from the corporation for just cause by the board of directors. Just cause includes, but is not limited to, violation of any applicable safety code adopted by the board of directors, illegal activities, unsafe activities violative of federal, state, or municipal statutes, laws, regulations, rules, ordinances, or the like, or acts determined by the board of directors to be detrimental or injurious to the corporation.

[plonk, adjudicated]

Ken Good late 7-10: I can only take him at his word.

[huh? That reflects on yourself, sir.]

5-26-09: Dr. Kosdon's Tripoli membership was suspended in March of 2002 for several claims, including breaking an agreement not to sell motors at TRA launch sites until he became "legal," the result of the then federal necessity of an LEMP, and various applications of California state law.

[Fool me once shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me thrice, I am in cahoots and go * yourself if you talk about it in public.]

Ken Good late 7-10: It gets a little tiring busting your ass and throwing away most of your free time for a decade, pushing out more organizational improvements than have been seen in TRA in many years.

[Work smart not hard. What is the membership growth pattern during that time? Dropping. What is the TRA record on addressing concerns of people who separate service from the corporation over ethical and legal concerns? As you well know noise makers are shunned, ignored, sometimes demembered, and always belittled in public, and on the private TRA list to all members. Free speech is actively attacked. I ask.]

Jerry

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpo...341&postcount=6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_ca...he_kettle_black


Jerry, while the information you are posting for the most part is true, I just wish you would stand up and tell us the real truth.

For example, I have a few yes/no questions that I would like you to answer, if you don't mind.

TIA

Terry Dean

1. Did you ever manufacturer USR or other motors in CA without the CA OSFM manufacturer license? ye or no?

I think the answer to this is Yes.

2. Dis you make your own home made rocket engines and sell them in the state of CA without the CA OSFM license? Yes or No.

I think the answer to this is Yes.


3. Have you made home made motors for your own use in the state of CA without a CA OSM Pyro 2-3 license? Yes or No?

I think the answer to this is Yes.


4. When you licensed AT to manufacture and relabel USR motors, did you manufacture any and sell them your self. I mean since the AT/USR motors were certfied and legal, if a person was to buy a Jerry-Manufactured version, and slip it into a AT RMS case, since they both had the same designations and characteristics, how would a RSO know the difference?


I also think this happened a lot with Kosdon Motors.

5. If you had either a commercial CA OSFM license or a Personal PYRO license, please scan a copy and attach them.

6. Are you aware of any other cases, where people manufactured HPR motors outside CA and imported/transported them and sold them in CA without any CA OSFM licenses?

I think the answer to this, is yes

__________________
"Old Rocketeer's don't die; they just go OOP".....unless you 3D print them.

Here:



Now shut up about me and stay on-topic. Also the Lucerne launches (1970-91) were conducted under a treaty with CSFM which allowed over a dozen boutique motor manufacturers (USR, AT, CD, TF, PJ, CR, VS, ACS, ISP, Wood, ACE, Hypertek, RATT, many others) to operate and initially develop with the full awareness and blessing of OSFM. A waiver if you will.

As a result of my efforts Lucerne Dry Lake remains a spot in CA one can go to fly rockets without prior AHJ approvals, as the formal TITLE 19 regulations state. The scouts and school programs are very grateful. You and TRA are whiny and spiteful, and NOT California residents!

I made repeated visits to OSFM in West Covina, CA and Sacramento, CA over the many past decades to assure what we were doing was a model for future rules, not a middle finger in the eye of the state. You know, like the Kosdon/TRA situation is.

I published a magazine for goodness sake widely publishing beyond MR activities in the state and copies were mailed to CSFM of course. We had consent.

Also note there has never been any hint or allegation of any non-compliance by me re the state. Nor should there be.

Anthony Guevara 7-2010: "its unfortunate that some individuals
within a very respected hobby need to be monitored
closer due to non-compliance of the law."

Jerry

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showpo...312&postcount=4