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  #1  
Old 01-04-2009, 11:32 PM
Carl@Semroc's Avatar
Carl@Semroc Carl@Semroc is offline
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Default Deci-scale

I have been looking at doing a large line of 1/10 scale (deci-scale) models for some time. Your ideas, suggestions and help are requested.

The smallest would be around ASP size and the largest the Honest John (maybe). Goal is simpler to prepare instructions. Like one sheet with exploded view and simple finishing for fun scale and more detailed backup for better scale.

1. Deacon (ST-6)
2. Cajun (ST-6)
3. Asp (ST-6)
4. Apache (ST-6 and ST-9)
5. IQSY Tomahawk (ST-8) (like Centuri)
6. Sandia Tomahawk (ST-8)
7. Sandhawk (BT-55)
8. Iris (ST-11)
9, WAC Corporal (ST-11)
10. Astrobee F (BT-58)
11. Aerobee Standard (BT-58)
12. Aerobee Hi (BT-58)
13. Nike Smoke (ST-16)
14. Nike Deacon (ST-16 and ST-6)
15. Nike Cajun (ST-16 and ST-6)
16. Nike Asp (ST-16 and ST-6)
17. Nike Apache (ST-16 and ST-6)
18. Nike Tomahawk (ST-16 and ST-8)
19. Nike Iroquois (ST-16 and ST-7)
20. Honest John (BT-70H)

and others

All would be in 1/10 scale. The BT-58 adds tube for Aerobee, etc. The only new tube is the ST-6 ( .610" ID and .650" OD ) which I have been meaning to order for some time for future 15mm engine.

Suggestion, comments, ideas, etc. are welcome! Centi-scale for Saturn V, 1B, Ares, etc. are also in process.
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  #2  
Old 01-05-2009, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
I have been looking at doing a large line of 1/10 scale (deci-scale) models for some time. Your ideas, suggestions and help are requested.

The smallest would be around ASP size and the largest the Honest John (maybe). Goal is simpler to prepare instructions. Like one sheet with exploded view and simple finishing for fun scale and more detailed backup for better scale.

1. Deacon (ST-6)
2. Cajun (ST-6)
3. Asp (ST-6)
4. Apache (ST-6 and ST-9)
5. IQSY Tomahawk (ST-8) (like Centuri)
6. Sandia Tomahawk (ST-8)
7. Sandhawk (BT-55)
8. Iris (ST-11)
9, WAC Corporal (ST-11)
10. Astrobee F (BT-58)
11. Aerobee Standard (BT-58)
12. Aerobee Hi (BT-58)
13. Nike Smoke (ST-16)
14. Nike Deacon (ST-16 and ST-6)
15. Nike Cajun (ST-16 and ST-6)
16. Nike Asp (ST-16 and ST-6)
17. Nike Apache (ST-16 and ST-6)
18. Nike Tomahawk (ST-16 and ST-8)
19. Nike Iroquois (ST-16 and ST-7)
20. Honest John (BT-70H)

and others

All would be in 1/10 scale. The BT-58 adds tube for Aerobee, etc. The only new tube is the ST-6 ( .610" ID and .650" OD ) which I have been meaning to order for some time for future 15mm engine.

Suggestion, comments, ideas, etc. are welcome! Centi-scale for Saturn V, 1B, Ares, etc. are also in process.


ST-6 and BT-58...

More tubes = more designs. And scale = challenge. You know I'm in favor of it!
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  #3  
Old 01-05-2009, 12:21 AM
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CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc
...The only new tube is the ST-6 ( .610" ID and .650" OD ) which I have been meaning to order for some time for future 15mm engine...


Have you given any thoughts about that ST-4 size we batted around for 10mm motors?
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  #4  
Old 01-05-2009, 02:57 AM
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Pyro Pro Pyro Pro is offline
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Default

So, will the CR-56's just be cut out of standard 0.05" fiber, or will they warrant making new paper centering rings? With ~1/32" gap all the way around between the ST-5 O.D. and the ST-6 I.D., just the fiber ones ought to work fine.

Also, will the Nike-boosted sounding rockets and the 2-stage Aero/Astrobees be built stock for 2 stage capability, or include provisions/plans for modifying the stock, basic designs, or just design them for single stage? As long as you could get a booster motor and deployment motor clustered in the booster (which would be a slight problem for the BT-58 Aerobees and Astrobees, they're about 0.02" too small I.D. to fit a cluster of 2 ST-7's, though, 2 BT-20's would just barely fit (0.026" of wiggle room)), it shouldn't be hard to design them for one or the other, and get a positive booster recovery system worked out with the ejection-capable tubes.

And finally, when coming up for design ideas for these, can/should we take into account future motors? For instance, 15mm motors seem to open up new clustering opportunities for the larger models, but if the kits are scheduled well in advance of any new motor developments, we should just concentrate on what's currently available.

These look like fun.
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  #5  
Old 01-05-2009, 06:45 AM
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Carl, I know it's not "deci," but you're not leaving out the FSI Black Brant - II, are you (1/8
scale)?!
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  #6  
Old 01-05-2009, 02:52 PM
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Exclamation Early Test Design -- Deacon

Carl,

Here's what I could glean from the internet sources on the basic Deacon sounding rocket. The main diameter is roughly 6.6" diameter, and the booster (including tube and nozzle) is 109.2" long. From the photos of that nozzle, it appears to be about 9" long, so if we subtract that from the total, we get 100", which means it would be the ST-6100 designation on the tube.

Looking at the fins, they're shaped much like the IRIS, just smaller. I'm guessing the dimensions as 2BT in width, 3.5BT root length, and 2.5BT tip chord, parallel to the root.

The total length of the rocket was listed as 129.12", or a nose cone of about 20" in length, giving us a 2" length for the model. I don't know if the original used a conical or an ogive profile.

Designations might be BC-620C for a conical, and BC-620 for the ogive. I'm suggesting a 0.5" shoulder length.

For the model, we would get:

Length: 12.00"
Diameter: 0.650" (ST-6)
Fin Span: 3.25"
Weight: 0.37 oz


1/2 A3-4T......359'......Dv 2 FPS......36" x 1/8" rod
A3-4T.........701'......Dv 27 FPS......36" x 1/8" rod


A 15" x 1.5" streamer is suggested for recovery.

Submitted for your approval...
Attached Thumbnails
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Name:  Deacon 2D.jpg
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Size:  85.4 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  Deacon 3D.jpg
Views: 18
Size:  34.6 KB  
Attached Files
File Type: rkt Deacon.rkt (39.8 KB, 9 views)
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  #7  
Old 01-05-2009, 08:23 PM
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Default

I'll take one of each!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl@Semroc

1. Deacon (ST-6)
2. Cajun (ST-6)
3. Asp (ST-6)
4. Apache (ST-6 and ST-9)
5. IQSY Tomahawk (ST-8) (like Centuri)
6. Sandia Tomahawk (ST-8)
7. Sandhawk (BT-55)
8. Iris (ST-11)
9, WAC Corporal (ST-11)
10. Astrobee F (BT-58)
11. Aerobee Standard (BT-58)
12. Aerobee Hi (BT-58)
13. Nike Smoke (ST-16)
14. Nike Deacon (ST-16 and ST-6)
15. Nike Cajun (ST-16 and ST-6)
16. Nike Asp (ST-16 and ST-6)
17. Nike Apache (ST-16 and ST-6)
18. Nike Tomahawk (ST-16 and ST-8)
19. Nike Iroquois (ST-16 and ST-7)
20. Honest John (BT-70H)

and others

All would be in 1/10 scale. The BT-58 adds tube for Aerobee, etc. The only new tube is the ST-6 ( .610" ID and .650" OD ) which I have been meaning to order for some time for future 15mm engine.

Suggestion, comments, ideas, etc. are welcome! Centi-scale for Saturn V, 1B, Ares, etc. are also in process.
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  #8  
Old 01-05-2009, 08:37 PM
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Mark II Mark II is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro Pro
[...]
And finally, when coming up for design ideas for these, can/should we take into account future motors? For instance, 15mm motors seem to open up new clustering opportunities for the larger models, but if the kits are scheduled well in advance of any new motor developments, we should just concentrate on what's currently available.

These look like fun.

Dave,

If you wanted to consider designing for the current situation, then couldn't you fit a cluster of 13mm A's into a BT-58?

Mark \\.
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  #9  
Old 01-05-2009, 11:23 PM
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CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
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Exclamation Found some additional data on Deacon / Cajun

For those who know sounding rockets, this info may be well-known, but bear with me, I'm still learning where to look!

The Deacon and the Cajun were basically the same case and fins, but different propellants. Cajun had about 30-40% better performance with the same payload.

Same holds for the Nike-Deacon (DAN) and the Nike-Cajun (CAN). The only dimensional differences will be a result of different payload compartments. Parts for one were virtually interchangeable with the other.

Looks like the most-common nose cone was a conical, about 34.2" long. Translation, a 3.4" conical balsa nose cone will be very close.

Below is a corrected Deacon / Cajun single-stage rocket, using a 26.6" (2.7") payload section, 107" motor section (10.7"), and a 34.2" conical nose cone (3.4"). The fins are also corrected from the previous file, which were grossly oversized...

Length: 16.80"
Diameter: 0.65" (ST-6)
Fin Span: 2.05"
Weight: 0.47 oz


1/2 A3-4T......314'......Dv 6 FPS.......36" x 1/8" rod
A3-4T..........688'......Dv 32 FPS......36" x 1/8" rod
A3-5T..........695'......Dv 4 FPS.......36" x 1/8" rod


Note to Carl: Take a look at the last line in the simulations above. Could a 5-second delay be worked into a 1.75" 13mm casing, using the DECAP style motor?

I'll try whipping out the Nike booster next...

Enjoy!
Attached Thumbnails
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Name:  Deacon (corrected) 2D.jpg
Views: 12
Size:  83.8 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  Deacon (corrected) 3D.jpg
Views: 13
Size:  28.4 KB  
Attached Files
File Type: rkt Deacon (corrected).rkt (55.8 KB, 10 views)
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  #10  
Old 01-05-2009, 11:37 PM
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Carl@Semroc Carl@Semroc is offline
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Craig,

That looks better! Do you have Rockets of the World? I am working on the falling sphere nose cone for it.

I would not plan on the small DECAP size! The manufacturability dictates a completely dedicated machine.

That is why we are looking at the 2.25" long casing. There are more options than with the 1.75" long version.
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