I tryed the new Estes starters today. I had many ignite and fail to light the motor. I even went home and got my 12V system and I still struggled with them.

They stink ... I will be looking at other options (Quest maybe)

Better start looking for dip... FWIU, the new Quest "starters" are going to be very similar...

Thank yer friendly gubmint overreaching regulators for not being able to light your motors...

We'll probably have to go back to bits of cannon fuse lit by these things...

Personally, I'm gonna just get some Quick dip and use that or just start rolling my own.

Later! OL JR

__________________
The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

With that many failures I'd check your installation technique. If they're against the propellant as they should be, they work just fine - even when being powered from a wimpy little 9V radio battery (as in the newest Estes handheld launch controllers).

I've had no more failures with them than with the older ones with the black pyrogen on them.

__________________
Bernard Cawley
NAR 89040 L1 - Life Member
SAM 0061
AMA 42160
KG7AIE

There are plenty of folks that still use bare nichrome wire and get near 100% success rates. The biggest issue with the new "starter" with no pyrogen is not making physical contact with propellant (as said above).

The next biggest issue is breaking the tiny bridge wire. The few new "starters" without pyrogen that I have do have a tiny bit of clear dip on them, but there isn't much there and it isn't as robust as most of my old ones with pyrogen. I have a few old ignitors that just barely have any pyrogen. They are very fragile, similar to the new "starters" I have. I don't know if my new "starter" dip is consistent with the bulk of new production. Gotta be careful with them at any rate.

__________________
I love sanding.

I often use the BARE NICHROME halves of used 'solar igniters' as igniters.
Just bend them to fit up against the propellant that they MUST touch for ignition.
I use a small ball of wadding to hold them in tight against the grain then a piece of tape to hold in place.
The leads are short, but still have enough distance to clamp a micro-clip upon.
They work fine, but require more care.

Of course you need a REAL launch controller to power them.
I use an old original Astron Controller with a 12V 6AH gel-cell for power.
A Solar or Electron Beam or other low-power (AA or 9V cell) controller will never work.

__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !

In the way back, I would use nichrome wire cut about an inch and a half long. The wire seemed to be of a smaller gauge (or should I say a larger gauge, smaller size? technicalities ) than the Estes Igniter leads and gave a much better performance (IMHO) than the Solar Igniters. I would hold in place with the ball of wadding as GH describes (sans the masking tape though), and definitely have to use the 12V system.

Of course 12V isn't as onerous as it once was, even if it means carrying more than just a controller with 4 AA batteries or even the 9V battery. The reliability (even using standard igniters,), versatility, and number of launches you can get off one charge is amazing.

Here I must diverge from GH's analysis (I would have to wash my mouth out if I agreed with him completely). For a comparable price, you can get a Car power jump starter. While the shipping weight of the jump starter is about twice the net weight of the gel-cell I could find (12.5 lbs, v. 6 lbs.) , the jump starter gives you so many more options.

First off is the obvious advantage of just keeping in the car in case of emergency. Most allow an accessory to be purchased (or is supplied, depending on the unit purchased) which allows you to charge the battery through a 12V accessory plug in the car. I have seen units which allow you to charge items through USB ports, ones with air pumps included, and almost all have LED lights, (during a recent outage at home, I fell asleep with the LEDs on and in the morning (6+ hours later) the battery power gauge had barely changed.

Even though 12V Launch Controllers are not as prevalent as they once were, one could be made at home simply by looking on the web for plans.

__________________
Bernard J. Herman Ohio RLS

Starport Sagitta Rockets
email bherman@sagittarockets.com

NAR # 97971 SR

What's your idea on the best way to change Washington D.C.?
Let us know at the Cantina
Sagitta Cantina

We're looking for a few good Catos, please tell us about any you may have had. Survey of Anecdotal Malfunctioning Engines or S.A.M.E.

Bernomatic's idea is even better and one I have used often.
Just grabbing the car 'jump start box' and hooking up the leads to the power leads of my Astron Controller is actually what I have done most recently instead of using my gel-cell.

I have often used the 12V starter outputs from the powr-panel on my R/C flight box for my glow-powered models.

__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !

Note the OP mentioned having issues even with a 12V system.

To argue the low power side of this....I have gotten two, and sometimes three launches off the the same Solar igniter on a 6V handheld controller - as long as the bridge wire hasn't failed they can be reused. Again the key is to get the wire in contact with the propellant. The Estes plugs do the job just fine (and they, too, are reusable).

On jump packs: all the clubs I fly with that have club systems use jump packs to power both the launchers and the PA system, except for my own club. In general they work very well. We (BEMRC) is still using a U1 12V wet cell battery for ours.

__________________
Bernard Cawley
NAR 89040 L1 - Life Member
SAM 0061
AMA 42160
KG7AIE

I didn't mean to imply that the Estes Plugs do anything less than a great job (in spite of their resemblance to other questionable items). Just that in the past a better way of securing the igniter in place rather than Estes suggested taping in place existed. The wadding ball in the nozzle was cheap and effective. Adding masking tape on top would probably give you the best chances of securing a properly placed igniter in position during pre-launch activities.

Again I think the Estes igniter plugs do a wonderful job and while I have retrieved and re-used them, It's always nice to have an alternative, simple back up in case a piece of kit is forgotten.

__________________
Bernard J. Herman Ohio RLS

Starport Sagitta Rockets
email bherman@sagittarockets.com

NAR # 97971 SR

What's your idea on the best way to change Washington D.C.?
Let us know at the Cantina
Sagitta Cantina

We're looking for a few good Catos, please tell us about any you may have had. Survey of Anecdotal Malfunctioning Engines or S.A.M.E.

I see a market for something many European space modelers (model rocketeers, in our lexicon) use--squibs. These reusable igniters aren't explosive, as their name implies. This squib igniter consists of a narrow tube, closed at the bottom end and open at the top end, which contains a hot-wire igniter. A small amount of black powder, smokeless powder, or pyrodex is poured into the squib, which is positioned so that its jet of flame enters the rocket motor's nozzle, igniting the propellant. The hot-wire igniter in the squib acts like a glow plug, providing the heat to ignite the powder. The nice thing about squibs (in addition to their being reusable) is that they completely eliminate the need for having a hot-wire in contact with the propellant. Stuart Lodge has covered squibs in his books. Also:

Although I haven't read about it being done, an igniter of this type might also work with a few drops of a *liquid* "accelerant" such as alcohol, gasoline, or lighter fluid, or with a gel accelerant such as Sterno fuel. If equipped with a convergent (or convergent-divergent) nozzle, making it in effect a tiny--but *very* short-burning--rocket engine, such a liquid and/or gel accelerant squib should be able to project its jet of flame farther and in a narrower stream, enabling it to ignite even small-nozzle model rocket motors easily. A gel accelerant squib could also be used (with an electronic staging system) to ignite upper stages or light other air-started rocket motors, with no concerns about it leaking accelerant out through its nozzle during drag-induced deceleration, before ignition (as might be the case with a squib using a powder or liquid accelerant).

__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR