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Old 03-26-2016, 02:36 AM
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Default ABS epoxy?

Hello All,

SpaceX's Falcon 9 and Fairing model rocket kit has numerous ABS plastic parts, as well as clear polycarbonate fins. The kit instructions say to use 5-minute epoxy (drawings of the dual-syringe type of packaging are shown) for ABS-to-ABS, ABS-to-paper, and ABS-to-polycarbonate glue joints. I haven't used much epoxy for building rockets, and I've read (in G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry") that epoxies with longer curing times are stronger than 5-minute epoxies (plus, the longer "pot life" epoxies allow more time for joining and aligning parts). Is this the case? Also:

The reason why I ask is because LOCTITE, who make several different epoxies (see: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/epoxies.shtm ), make a 20-minute epoxy (see: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/13...stic-Bonder.htm ) that's formulated specifically for bonding ABS, polycarbonate, and other plastics (it bonds PVC, polycarbonate, acrylic, ABS, FRP, Nylon™, Mylar™, Delrin, and phenolic, as well as aluminum and stainless steel). I've used their 5-minute epoxy for non-rocketry work, and their 20-minute Epoxy Plastic Bonder sounds like a good one for building the Falcon 9 kit (plus, it's readily available locally).

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help!
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:41 AM
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It is true that longer curing epoxies have less filler in the curative portion. The epoxy I use for motors has 7% curative and 93% epoxy. Most consumer epoxies are formulated to be volumetrically similar so the parallel syringes can be used to dispense it. It would be better if the curative side was thinner to begin with. Also epoxy is somewhat viscous and curative is runny like water so that is another reason they use fillers.

JB weld is a metallic filled adhesive that would probably work well on ABS and the associated materials.

Poop pipe is also called Quantum Tube over at PML.

Jerry
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Hello All,

SpaceX's Falcon 9 and Fairing model rocket kit has numerous ABS plastic parts, as well as clear polycarbonate fins. The kit instructions say to use 5-minute epoxy (drawings of the dual-syringe type of packaging are shown) for ABS-to-ABS, ABS-to-paper, and ABS-to-polycarbonate glue joints. I haven't used much epoxy for building rockets, and I've read (in G. Harry Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry") that epoxies with longer curing times are stronger than 5-minute epoxies (plus, the longer "pot life" epoxies allow more time for joining and aligning parts). Is this the case? Also:

The reason why I ask is because LOCTITE, who make several different epoxies (see: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/epoxies.shtm ), make a 20-minute epoxy (see: http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/13...stic-Bonder.htm ) that's formulated specifically for bonding ABS, polycarbonate, and other plastics (it bonds PVC, polycarbonate, acrylic, ABS, FRP, Nylon™, Mylar™, Delrin, and phenolic, as well as aluminum and stainless steel). I've used their 5-minute epoxy for non-rocketry work, and their 20-minute Epoxy Plastic Bonder sounds like a good one for building the Falcon 9 kit (plus, it's readily available locally).

Many thanks in advance to anyone who can help!


Yeah, the longer the cure time the stronger the epoxy-- the stuff you mentioned should work well...

Remember that the kit instructions are written "dumbed down" for the standard "instant gratification- everybody gets a trophy" types that can't be bothered with stuff that is "too hard"... for the more advanced hobbyist that "has read chapter 2" you can use better materials, techniques, etc...

Later! OL J R
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:47 PM
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Sounds like a Methylmethacrylate (MMA) adhesive, they work well on plastics.
http://www.permabond.com/blog/2014/...late-adhesives/
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Old 03-26-2016, 03:19 PM
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Big discussions have gone on over on TRF regarding assembly of the new Estes Little Joe II. The wrap is ABS, but the styrene fins don't bond well to it, based on the kit's recommendations for cements. Plastruct's Plastic Weld works well, and it's decription says it is for bonding dissimilar materials, and lists ABS, styrene, acrylic, and butyrate. The Plastic Weld should work on ABS to ABS, but for ABS to paper or polycarbonate, CA might work. In the LJII build thread, CA for plastics was used successfully -- specifically Zap's Plasti-Zap.

I am interested in trying the Loctite epoxy mentioned. It has a pretty diverse list of materials which it supposedly works with. The other option is to just try to Oatey's plumber's cement that is recommended for ABS.
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Old 03-27-2016, 01:03 AM
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Get some Bob Smith, Devcon, or Great Planes 15 or 30 minute epoxy.
The longer the cure time the better the strength.
5 minute epoxy flat-out sucks. It cures too fast and it's bond strength sucks.
The BEST epoxy around is West System and is available in most marine stores.
West System is NOT available in small quantities and IS expensive. It is mixed in like a 3 to 1 ratio of resin to hardener and does not contain strength-weakening fillers.
Sig used to offer a long-cure epoxy that was almost as good as West System and may have been re-packaged West System in hobbyist quantities. That was mixed in a 3 to 1 ratio also, but naturally is no longer available to my knowledge.
DO NOT USE any brand of 5-minute eposy for ANY model construction.
Make sure you "rough up" the plastic with sandpaper where you will be applying the epoxy. It gives the glue more area to 'bite' into.
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Old 03-27-2016, 02:44 AM
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I thank you all very much for your replies. It was the Little Joe II thread here on YORF (which includes a discussion of the best glues to use for its dissimilar plastics) that also helped to prompt my query here about the Falcon 9 kit. (The old Testors MEK-based liquid plastic cement worked very well for bonding styrene and ABS to themselves and to each other, but the new stuff isn't even as good for "welding" styrene parts together as was the old formula.) Also:

I haven't come across any online mentions of the 5-minute epoxy -not- working well in the SpaceX Falcon 9 kit (nor did I expect to find any, because it isn't subjected to very high stresses, given the motors [D12-5 and E9-6] that it uses). But I always prefer to use the best--within reason (of strength, cost, and the minimum available container size)--bonding agents. For the Falcon 9 kit's ABS/ABS, ABS/paper, and ABS/polycarbonate glue joints, the LOCTITE (made by Henkel) 20-minute Epoxy Plastic Bonder http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/13...stic-Bonder.htm should be more than strong enough (and then some--plus, I always "rough-up" glue joint locations to give any glue, even white glue, more to "grab onto"). In addition:

One dual-syringe container of it should be ample for all three of my Falcon 9 and Fairing kits. Plus, for field repairs of "1/8A" through "E" or "F" powered rockets, it would be superior to 5-minute epoxies, which (as well as CA glues) are often used for field repairs. For building more powerful rockets than those, where glue joint strength is critical, I'd use one of the more specialized, even longer-curing hobby, marine, or industrial epoxies, such as those that you all listed. (I can't use CA glue because of my body's strong and very unpleasant reactions to its fumes [tightness in the chest, sinuses feeling like they're on fire, etc.], but epoxy doesn't bother me.)
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
I am interested in trying the Loctite epoxy mentioned. It has a pretty diverse list of materials which it supposedly works with. The other option is to just try to Oatey's plumber's cement that is recommended for ABS.


Oatey's has a plumbing cement that has been formulated to work with ABS (and other plastics). I needed to make some repairs to both an Estes Nike Smoke and and Estes D-Region rockets that I acquired from a fellow who bailed out of the hobby. While his builds were very nice to look at he apparently used Testors plastic cement per the instructions (and very little at that), which resulted in fins that detached in flight or upon touchdown. After reading about bond failures with cements and epoxies, I tried the Oatey's cement which "welded" the parts together. It is messy to work with when used for model rockets so I used pipe cleaners dipped into the container to apply it. So far, so good.

Trimming all plastic parts of "flash" and pre-fitting parts is also helpful with these plastic components.
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Old 04-14-2016, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmacklin
Oatey's has a plumbing cement that has been formulated to work with ABS (and other plastics). I needed to make some repairs to both an Estes Nike Smoke and and Estes D-Region rockets that I acquired from a fellow who bailed out of the hobby. While his builds were very nice to look at he apparently used Testors plastic cement per the instructions (and very little at that), which resulted in fins that detached in flight or upon touchdown. After reading about bond failures with cements and epoxies, I tried the Oatey's cement which "welded" the parts together. It is messy to work with when used for model rockets so I used pipe cleaners dipped into the container to apply it. So far, so good.

Trimming all plastic parts of "flash" and pre-fitting parts is also helpful with these plastic components.
Is the Oatey plumbing cement that you used a two-part epoxy? The ones I've found online--and Oatey makes several interesting varieties that may be excellent for building rockets--are "unitary" cements that come in metal cans (see: https://www.google.com/#q=Oatey%27s+plumbing+cement ). Their PVC pipe glue, I'm guessing, cures to a hard rubber-like consistency, which would be ideal for rocket kit applications (one doesn't want a cement that's either brittle-rigid or like soft rubber, but instead one that's rigid with just a little "give," to handle in-flight vibration and landing impacts). Also:

The LOCTITE Epoxy Plastic Bonder, like the Oatey PVC pipe cement, also welds the two parts together, and it's also slightly flexible so that it "gives" a little with the parts (the typical gluing application shown on its blister card is the mending of a plastic deck, patio, or lawn chair). It contains methyl methacrylate. LOCTITE's 60 minute Extra Time epoxy contains polyamide, amorphous silica, and amine curing agents, and their 5 minute General Purpose epoxy contains polymer captan and amine curing agents, and both the 60 minute and 5 minute ones are not recommended for gluing flexible materials.
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Is the Oatey plumbing cement that you used a two-part epoxy? The ones I've found online--and Oatey makes several interesting varieties that may be excellent for building rockets--are "unitary" cements that come in metal cans (see: https://www.google.com/#q=Oatey%27s+plumbing+cement ). Their PVC pipe glue, I'm guessing, cures to a hard rubber-like consistency, which would be ideal for rocket kit applications (one doesn't want a cement that's either brittle-rigid or like soft rubber, but instead one that's rigid with just a little "give," to handle in-flight vibration and landing impacts). Also:

The LOCTITE Epoxy Plastic Bonder, like the Oatey PVC pipe cement, also welds the two parts together, and it's also slightly flexible so that it "gives" a little with the parts (the typical gluing application shown on its blister card is the mending of a plastic deck, patio, or lawn chair). It contains methyl methacrylate. LOCTITE's 60 minute Extra Time epoxy contains polyamide, amorphous silica, and amine curing agents, and their 5 minute General Purpose epoxy contains polymer captan and amine curing agents, and both the 60 minute and 5 minute ones are not recommended for gluing flexible materials.


No, it's just a standard plumbing cement used for ABS, PVC and similar plastics. It is a transparent, viscous liquid that dissolves and welds the parts together rather than forming an adhesive bond. It is best used with a purple pipe cleaner, though I suppose the mating surfaces could be cleaned using acetone. When I get a chance I'll check my stash and see if I can find the containers.
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