Anyone need C11-x engines?

[raohara]

I have a supply of C11-0, -3, -5, and -7 engines that are available. I hear that Estes is bringing this engine back, but if you need them now I have a decent quanity of most varieties.

[Mark II]

Whoever you sell them to will have to come and pick them up or meet you somewhere, because you can't ship them. Bummer. :(

MarkII

[raohara]

Yea, thanks Mark, I guess I should have mentioned the shipping thing. While my preference is to sell them to someone in the Seattle area and avoid the shipping hassle, I do have access to someone who is authorized to ship via USPS.

[jetlag]

Whoever you sell them to will have to come and pick them up or meet you somewhere, because you can't ship them. Bummer. :(

MarkII

I believe you can now. I just got the newsletter from a certain well-known supplier here stating they can ship tons of engines USPS. Just not the Estes E's. Check Sirius' website.
Since the BATF court decision, even up to 'I' reloads can be shipped USPS.
Allen

[Mark II]

I believe you can now. I just got the newsletter from a certain well-known supplier here stating they can ship tons of engines USPS. Just not the Estes E's. Check Sirius' website.
Since the BATF court decision, even up to 'I' reloads can be shipped USPS.
AllenAFAIK, the settlement of the BATF lawsuit has nothing to do with the shipping regulations of the Department of Transportation. Two separate agencies. Two separate jurisdictions. Two separate sets of Federal regulations. The lawsuit had to do with BATF's classification of APCP as an explosive, requiring a permit to own and store. BATF has absolutely nothing to do with matters relating to the shipment of goods, rocket motors or otherwise. The US Department of Transportation has jurisdiction over that (or at least part of it) and it is DOT regulations that come into play in the matter of shipment of rocket motors. No matter who you are, no matter how many motors you wish to ship, no matter how big they are or how many grams of propellant they contain, you are required in the US to obtain a Federal permit to ship any rocket motors that contain propellant. Period. No exceptions. Shipment of motors without first obtaining a permit to do so will likely result in a stiff fine and significant prison time. This has been the law for quite some time, and the settlement of the BATF lawsuit did nothing to change that. (Because the BATF doesn't regulate shipping, there is no possible way that the lawsuit could have had any effect on it.)

Where in the Sirius Rocketry website do you see anything that contradicts this?

MarkII

[jetlag]

Mark,
I received the emailed newsletter from Sirius yesterday ( I am on their list), read it, then deleted it. Please feel free to contact them and ask for them to forward you a copy. I inferred they were sending these motors, because there is NO hazmat fee associated with them at all. They said as much. Hope I'm not popping your bubble!
If there were a fee, would we not be charged? If you doubt me, go to the source of the info., please.
Allen

[Royatl]

Jetlag,

I believe businesses who are distributors or dealers of motor manufacturers like Estes, Quest, and Aerotech, can apply for a shipping exemption, or maybe an authorization. Otherwise, you'd always have to have motors drop-shipped from the mfgr, which would be a huge hassle for the mfgr.

But private individuals without a permit (or without an authorization from the mfgr) can NOT ship motors legally.

[jetlag]

Ok, fine,
All I know is just about every private individual I have ever bought motors from has shipped them USPS, and I have not had the SS at my door. I don't believe they have either.
Heck, the USPS can't even deliver the mail on Saturdays anymore; at least that's the proposal...
I did not ask Sirius directly, because, mainly, I just don't care. Ya'll are welcome to. They probably DO have an exemption. The rules are stupid. What can I say. I'd still ship 'em, though. When I simply tell the post office these are toy rocket motors, they do not even bat an eye. Off they go.
Allen

[wilsotr]

Just fwiw ....

Shipment of model rocket motors via USPS is perfectly legal . There's a limit to what can be shipped and a process that has to be followed, all outlined pretty well on the NAR website ....

http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf

The regs require a letter from USPS HQ authorizing the shipment - it's the umbrella under which manufacturers and their distributors ship legally. There's no reason a private individual cannot request such an authorization ... I don't know of anyone who's done so and been turned down, but then again I don't know of anyone who's requested the authorization, either. If anyone has first-hand knowledge of such, it would be interesting to hear the story.

[barone]

(snip)........When I simply tell the post office these are toy rocket motors, they do not even bat an eye. Off they go.
Allen
lol....Exactly what happens when I mail them. Of course, I never send them priority or express and specify ground shipping. Now, is that how they are actually handled? Don't know....don't care.

[ghrocketman]

I'm interested in C11-0's; send me a PM as to the price ect...

[Rocketflyer]

Mark,
I received the emailed newsletter from Sirius yesterday ( I am on their list), read it, then deleted it. Please feel free to contact them and ask for them to forward you a copy. I inferred they were sending these motors, because there is NO hazmat fee associated with them at all. They said as much. Hope I'm not popping your bubble!
If there were a fee, would we not be charged? If you doubt me, go to the source of the info., please.
Allen


I got the same email, and jetlag is telling it like the email said.

[Bill]

I inferred they were sending these motors, because there is NO hazmat fee associated with them at all.


There is no hazmat fee for motors or reloads containing under 30 grams of propellant. That includes BP motors other than the E9 and many mid-power composites. The fee is totally separate from the authorization required to ship any and all motors.

I pity the fool who gets caught shipping without authorization or worse, have the package involved in an air transport incident. BIG FINE and maybe even jail time. The feds are very serious about this due to the preceived danger to the public.

That said, I also stocked up on C11-0s after Estes announced they were making no more. I am willing to sell or trade...but will not ship.


Bill

[Mark II]

There is no hazmat fee for motors or reloads containing under 30 grams of propellant. That includes BP motors other than the E9 and many mid-power composites. The fee is totally separate from the authorization required to ship any and all motors.

I pity the fool who gets caught shipping without authorization or worse, have the package involved in an air transport incident. BIG FINE and maybe even jail time. The feds are very serious about this due to the preceived danger to the public.

That said, I also stocked up on C11-0s after Estes announced they were making no more. I am willing to sell or trade...but will not ship.


BillQuite right, Bill. Yes, Sirius Rocketry and other online vendors are able to ship black powder motors via USPS, but only because they have applied for and received a permit to do so. Any rocket motors also have to be ground shipped, since they are NEVER allowed on aircraft. (Why do you think it takes so long for Quest to get motors from their contractors in China and Germany? Because they have to be transported by ship - they cannot be air freighted.) Normally, packages that are shipped first class or priority will spend at least a portion of their journey on board an aircraft. If you box up a set of C11's and place no special labeling on the parcel and ship it from your local PO, that's how it will go. But God help you if you get caught. And God help the rest of us who enjoy this hobby, too, because you will be putting its legal status in jeopardy. The NAR document that was previously referenced spells it out pretty clearly - individual hobbyists simply cannot send rocket motors through the mail without jumping through a series of rather onerous hoops.

Quoting from the document "Shipping Sport Rocketry Motors""Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors. Individual rocketeers are not parties to this DOT exemption and cannot ship motors as Flammable Solid (4.1), even if they can find a carrier who will accept and ship HAZMAT."
[Emphasis mine.]

In the next paragraph, it explains,"The main shipping agencies available to consumers in the U.S. are the U.S. Postal Service (USPS), United Parcel Service (UPS), and Federal Express (FedEx). Neither UPS nor FedEx will accept HAZMAT for shipment from private individuals. They require that any shipper of HAZMAT be a commercial entity operating under a Hazardous Materials Contract Service Agreement with them. As part of this contract, the shipper must certify that their personnel who do packaging and handling of HAZMAT have completed the biennial HAZMAT training required by DOT regulations."
[Again, I added the emphasis]

Individuals can ship small quantities of rocket motors through the mail, but they have to negotiate some pretty significant hurdles first:"Shipping regulations for sending sport rocket motors via the U.S. Mail are found inPostal Publication 52, 'Acceptance of Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Matter', Section 341.22a and Appendix 1A. The USPS will accept small sport rocket motors for shipment by individuals, but only under certain limited conditions. First, they will accept only motors that are classified 1.4S/NA0323 (30 grams or less of propellant), and that are packaged and marked appropriately (see below). Second, the shipper must present to their Postmaster a 'Letter of Authorization', addressed to them personally from the USPS Manager of Mail Preparations and Standards (475 L'Enfant Plaza SW, Washington, DC 20260), which authorizes them to enter these motors into the U.S. Mail. Getting such a letter requires 30-60 days, and requires the consumer to provide specific information about the motors that he plans to ship, including a dimensioned drawing and a Material Safety Data Sheet for each motor type. Once it is issued, the letter of authorization is valid only for 1 year. Estes, Quest, and Aerotech have provided this technical material to the USPS and have negotiated blanket letters for themselves and their distributors. They have to provide a complete list of all these distributors to the USPS each year in order to maintain this authorization."
So fire up your word processor and get to work producing an MSDS for the handful of C11's you want to ship (make sure that you list all of the chemical components incorporated in the propellant, and their approximate proportions), and crank up your CAD program to create a dimensioned drawing (inside and out) of them. And give yourself one to two month's lead time before you plan to ship them, in order to obtain the letter of permission.

Yup, that sounds easy, right?

MarkII

[wilsotr]

Look at in the context of the Nov/Dec 09 Sprocketry back cover: "We choose to ship motors, not because it is easy, but because it is hard." :)

Here's a link to the USPS reg, forms, and MSDS sheets ...

http://digitalvault.cox.net/invite/login?c=35643735366664342d333662392d313164642d623732372d303030303766303030303031&i=2f1e-12503e835d3-coxprod_gemini1&t=649cc41be0422008&r=mg&lang=en

Note these may not be the most current revs ... might be a good idea to check before using them. I don't remember anything in the reg about a dimensioned drawing, but it's been awhile since I looked. It shouldn't be difficult to create a simple one, if necessary. All that's lacking is a letter to the USPS. I'm tempted to write one, just to see how hard it is to get permission.

If Estes can get blanket authorization for its distributors with one letter, I wonder if I can get it for my friends? :)

[Mark II]

Look at in the context of the Nov/Dec 09 Sprocketry back cover: "We choose to ship motors, not because it is easy, but because it is hard." :)Oh, come on - it says no such thing! :p :chuckle:

I'd like to see the text of the email that Dave Miller sent out to some of you.

MarkII

[wilsotr]

I'd like to see the text of the email that Dave Miller sent out to some of you.


PM me your address and I'll forward it to you ... it just says some motors can be shipped by USPS without hazmat fees.

[Bill]

PM me your address and I'll forward it to you ... it just says some motors can be shipped by USPS without hazmat fees.


Yes, and "some motors" are those containing no more than 30 grams of propellant. Interesting that you can ship 50 pounds of D12s without paying the hazmat fee, whereas you do for a single E9. It's the government; it does not have to make sense.


Bill

[tsai]

Folks,

Reviving this thread... I've bought some stuff from Rich, and he's an honest guy. I'm local, so I was able to talk with him a bit, and understand his setup.

He does have the ability to ship these engines through an arrangement with a hobby shop, so this is fully legal and compliant with current shipping regs.

If you need the C11 engines, here's a great chance to re-stock!

Cheers,
- Ken

I believe you can now. I just got the newsletter from a certain well-known supplier here stating they can ship tons of engines USPS. Just not the Estes E's. Check Sirius' website.
Since the BATF court decision, even up to 'I' reloads can be shipped USPS.
Allen

[PaulK]

Folks,

Reviving this thread... I've bought some stuff from Rich, and he's an honest guy. I'm local, so I was able to talk with him a bit, and understand his setup.

He does have the ability to ship these engines through an arrangement with a hobby shop, so this is fully legal and compliant with current shipping regs.

If you need the C11 engines, here's a great chance to re-stock!

Cheers,
- KenI ordered some of these motors from Rich, and just received them a couple days ago. It was a great transaction, the price was good, and the motors were shipped promptly and properly. Thanks Rich!

I hope Estes starts making these again, especially the -0 and -5, but I'm good to fly my heavy 2 and 3 stagers for a while longer now.

[jamjammer53150]

I work for a company wo sells multi carrier shipping systems , inclusive in that is haz mat shipping automation. I personaly have all the training and certification for everything short of fissinable material.
One thing I want to stress , is FOLLOW the rules .

Now for a funny story
one of my clients is a defence contractor , and we were trying to get an exemption to fly some squibs for the explosive bolts that hold a jet fighters canopy on . now you could probally put theese things up your nose and pop them with no harm. ( they make great ematches)Additionally the paperwork out weighed the product. the problem was they were classed as high explosive iniators .
After a really long discussion with like the 2nd in command of fedex haz , and explaining how silly it was to disallow airplane parts on an airplane , and that there was a jet in Saudi Araiba sort of sitting usless he cleared them as accessable cargo .
for a mere 287 bucks 3 ish ounces of squibs got there .