Saturn V won't go

[Paul]

I have a 30th anniversary Estes Saturn V that seems to be too heavy. I used the heavier fin and fairing assemblies from Moldin' Oldies. On its first (and so far only) flight on a D12-3, it lifted off very slowly, and only reached an altitude of about 75 feet. It hit the ground before the ejection charge popped the parachutes. Fortunatley, it landed on soft grass and there was no damage. Can I safely use an Aerotech E15 or E30 engine? If so, what changes might I need to make? I have not yet crossed the threshold from D to E engines.
Thanks!
Paul

[Shreadvector]

I have a 30th anniversary Estes Saturn V that seems to be too heavy. I used the heavier fin and fairing assemblies from Moldin' Oldies. On its first (and so far only) flight on a D12-3, it lifted off very slowly, and only reached an altitude of about 75 feet. It hit the ground before the ejection charge popped the parachutes. Fortunatley, it landed on soft grass and there was no damage. Can I safely use an Aerotech E15 or E30 engine? If so, what changes might I need to make? I have not yet crossed the threshold from D to E engines.
Thanks!
Paul

E15-4 or E30-4 are a direct replacement for the Estes D12-3. They are physically identical. The E15 will give you a bit more thrust while the E30 will give you more than double the thrust. Compare thrust-time curves on the NAR website.


http://www.nar.org/SandT/NARenglist.shtml

http://www.valuerockets.com/product_details.aspx?pid=3&itemid=4

[GregGleason]

You might consider the E18. It burns a little longer than the D12, but it keeps that peak D12 thrust for a longer time. The E30 will give it a good kick off the pad and it will scoot.

Greg

[ghrocketman]

The Estes Saturn V can take the kick of the Aerotech E30 (or E28 in the reloadable RMS 24) but ALL of the little fine plastic details better be very securely attached.
It will fly a little higher on the E15 (Or E18 in RMS24 reloadable) due to the longer thrust duration.
In conditions of any wind at 5mph or above, the E30 is a better choice as it gets the 4" Saturn up to decent speed quicker.

One can also use the new "E" length F32T as well as the RMS24 F24 and F39.

In any case, use the shortest delay offered with each engine.

The Aerotech RMS24 F24-4W probably gives the nicest flight with 50n-sec of total impulse which is almost 3 times that of the wimpy Estes 17 n-sec D12 .

[Mercury1]

My Saturn is pretty much bone stock except for the addition of about a 1/4 oz of nose weight and it weighs in at 12.2 oz. I have flown it twice on an E15-4 and both flights went off very well using a 48” launch rod. The 4-second delay is a little long, long enough to add an additional pucker factor to the flight. If yours weighs more than 12 oz, you should probably consider the higher thrust E motors. If you would like, email me your rocket weight and your launch site altitude and I will run it through RockSim.

Also, the parachutes can be a little tricky because the main chutes can get stuck in the main section’s body tube. After searching the forums for ideas and suggestions I choose to pack the small upper section parachute under the two main chutes with a layer of wadding in between. The idea here is that the small parachute pulls the main chutes out when the two sections separate. On the first launch it worked perfectly, but on the second launch one of the main chutes stayed in the tube until the main section was about 30’ off the ground.

It’s an exciting rocket to launch because there is always a lot of work on the line with each launch.

Sol
www.mercury-rockets.com (http://www.mercury-rockets.com)

[snuggles]

My 2 cents, use the longest launch rod you can get. 4 foot X 3/16"
The E18 is a good motor for this rocket. You want the extra rod to give it the most vertical boost you can get.
It's a REALLY cool flier.
Mark T

[Paul]

Thanks everyone! I'll give the E18 a try and let you know what happened.
Paul

[UCBadger]

Would these recommendations also work for the Saturn IB?

[tbzep]

Would these recommendations also work for the Saturn IB?

The little Centuri-Estes 1/100 one? I have an old Centuri one that suffered a cato and I rebuilt the rear end with a single motor mount. It flew just fine on single C5-3's and C6-3's. The Estes version is the same kit with a single 24mm mount intended for D12-5's. An Aerotech E motor in that kit would be overkill. I would stick with C11-3's for small fields and never go beyond D12-5's regardless of the field size. These kits need to fly low and slow and be seen instead of being punched into orbit.

The Semroc 1/70 kit is another animal. It flies just fine on a single D12-3, but it will barely clear the tree tops. It would look and fly great on an Aerotech E15 or E18.

[ghrocketman]

My Semroc Saturn 1B flies GREAT on the same RMS24 F24-4W that I suggested for the Saturn V. With that engine, a decent flight results.

[GregGleason]

Either the E18 or the F24 works for Saturns. You get lots of white smoke with the White Lightning reloads, which helps the scale effect.

Greg

[tbzep]

Either the E18 or the F24 works for Saturns. You get lots of white smoke with the White Lightning reloads, which helps the scale effect.

Greg

The White Lightnings might get a scale look while near the pad where steam from the water cannnons cooling the launch pad showed as white "smoke", but that's the only scale look you get. Both Saturn burned what amounts to kerosene, which gave a very thin but dark colored smoke, almost un-noticed. Also, the Saturns both had slow majestic liftoffs. The E18 will be much quicker than scale, and the F24 will be waaaaaay quicker than scale. If the Estes D12 burn time could be extended a couple extra seconds, it would make a really nice scale flight.

[GregGleason]

I just think the white smoke is a little better than the dark smoke or the blue smoke for the RMS options.

Greg

[jetlag]

I just think the white smoke is a little better than the dark smoke or the blue smoke for the RMS options.

Greg

What a great shot!!!!

[UCBadger]

The Semroc 1/70 kit is another animal. It flies just fine on a single D12-3, but it will barely clear the tree tops. It would look and fly great on an Aerotech E15 or E18.
The Semroc kit is what I have. I am not ready to invest in reloadable, don't want to do my own switchable motor mount, and, to be quite honest, am worried about cluster ignition, even though if I had started my kit last week, would have done the cluster version.

I would like the model to go higher than 100 feet, but don't want to lose sight of it.

The E18 are reloads, while the E15 is a single use motor, right? Just what are my option if I go with the single 24 mm engine mount? Do I need to cut down the top hook of the metal motor hook if I want to use an AeroTech single use motor?

Thanks for all your help and input.

Curtis

[Shreadvector]

The current Aerotech E15 motor (and E30) have nothing protruding from the top of the casing, so they fit perfectly into the Estes motor mounts - even those with a hook.


The future version will have a protruding delay/ejection housing on the top end, but it will be hexagonal, so it will fit through the hole in normal thrust rings and will clear a motor hook that protrudes too far.

Photos of the future version are online from NARAM-51.

http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=5454


The Semroc kit is what I have. I am not ready to invest in reloadable, don't want to do my own switchable motor mount, and, to be quite honest, am worried about cluster ignition, even though if I had started my kit last week, would have done the cluster version.

I would like the model to go higher than 100 feet, but don't want to lose sight of it.

The E18 are reloads, while the E15 is a single use motor, right? Just what are my option if I go with the single 24 mm engine mount? Do I need to cut down the top hook of the metal motor hook if I want to use an AeroTech single use motor?

Thanks for all your help and input.

Curtis

[MKP]

I would like the model to go higher than 100 feet, but don't want to lose sight of it.

The E18 are reloads, while the E15 is a single use motor, right? Just what are my option if I go with the single 24 mm engine mount? Do I need to cut down the top hook of the metal motor hook if I want to use an AeroTech single use motor?



Curtis

The E15 is indeed a single use motor, and no, you do not have to file down the top part of the hook with SU moters because they do not have a forward closure like RMS cases do.

[garmtn]

B 4 even considering going to an "E" motor, consider "wind" as the MAIN factor. With that wide body u want less than 3MPH winds. That aside, I've had much success w/E30. I also agree with 4' rod and shortest delay possible. I made mine more durable by injecting "foam insulation" into most of it. Added significant weight but, was worth it. Also, like the small parachute "packed first," to pull out main chutes. Will have to try that one. TTY Glenn NAR 89197 :cool:

[barone]

I've found using the Aerotech motors with a normal motor mount, sometimes the motor ejects even when the hook has it captured (I don't know why). Had one blow from my Super Big Bertha but I still got deployment. Saw something smoking falling but didn't know what it was (didn't suspect it to be the motor since the parachute deployed). Missing the motor casing when recovered. So, I now wrap some tape around the motor and hook to keep the hook from springing off.

As for the wind thing, yeah, you've got a lot of area for the wind to grab. DON'T TRY to punch through it with a higher thrust motor. All you're going to have is a rocket doing loops faster...... :o

[Intruder]

As for the wind thing, yeah, you've got a lot of area for the wind to grab. DON'T TRY to punch through it with a higher thrust motor. All you're going to have is a rocket doing loops faster...... :o
Unfortunately, barone found that out first hand. :eek: :(

[tbzep]

I just think the white smoke is a little better than the dark smoke or the blue smoke for the RMS options.

Greg

Each to his own, I guess. However, to be scale, it needs dark smoke after clearing the tower. The white in your image may have to do with moisture condensation. Check out this video about 2:50 in to see the true color of the Saturn's plume. Smoke color has the least to do with scale when using an F24....it's liftoff will be more like a sounding rocket than a big majestic Saturn. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvWHnK2FiCk