What about an Estes - Semroc merger???

[Rocket Doctor]

IN MY OPINION.

As we all know, Estes is up for sale.
We also know that Excelsior is also up for sale.

Along with that, we have these other fine companies such as Semroc, Quest, Sunward and Fliskits just to mention a few.

Wouldn't it be nice if all of the above mentioned could be merged together into one super rocket company.

We would have the talent from each of these, many of our requests would be answered and any debate over who makes what and for how much would be put to rest.

Out of the current owners, you could have a board of directors, each year the president of the new company would change so that everyopne would hold that position. If you didn't want to have a board, then, they could act as department heads. I'm sure that each of the current owners hold many talents that the new company would benefit from.

Not only would the mass market be covered, the hobby shops, mailorder and other outlets as well.

We could have a vast amount of quality material at our disposal , both foreign and domestic.
And with Excelsior, we would have an outlet for quality decals as well.

We could pick and choose what motors we want, China made Quest motors, American made Estes motors and if anyone else would want to participate, maybe we would have the B14's and C11's back.

The kit assortment would be endless, endless opportunities for more expansion than ever, even more than when the two giants in the hobby were going head to head, Estes and Centuri.

You could also add to that by bringing in the NAR with it's Sport Rocketry Magazine and LAUNCH, both quality publications.

Oh, I forgot to mention, why not Aerotech as well, let's have all bases covered, plenty of motors of all types.

The hobby could expand 10 fold, everyone would be happy and the hobby could expand to new heights.

But, what do we call this MEGA model rocket company, why not use the original MMI name, where it all started.

It's an WIN WIN situation, not only would the above mentioned companies benefit, but, we the hobbyists, model rocketeers as well.

Just a thought.
What's your opinion.

[dwmzmm]

Agreed; it's a win - win deal!

[MarkB.]

Ahem,

Gentlemen, I believe that's called a monopoly. And like many similar situations, everything will start off benevolent, but eventually human nature (read greed) will kick in and the buyers will suffer.

Bad idea.

[Rocket Doctor]

Ahem,

Gentlemen, I believe that's called a monopoly. And like many similar situations, everything will start off benevolent, but eventually human nature (read greed) will kick in and the buyers will suffer.

Bad idea.

I wouldn't consider it a monopoly, there are still plenty of companies out there producing model rockets, and who;s to say that all of the above would participate?

Whjat about the postal service, you talk about monopolies?????And the rate is going up next month.

[tbzep]

I wouldn't consider it a monopoly, there are still plenty of companies out there producing model rockets, and who;s to say that all of the above would participate?

Whjat about the postal service, you talk about monopolies?????And the rate is going up next month.

USPS is a government agency, not a private company running solely for profit. That's a huge difference.

[Royatl]

I will just mention the following four names. Look up their history, circa 1992-93.


Microbrick
Rocketflite
Energon
Dangerous Dave's Composites.


Mergers are tricky things. Often times very little good comes out of them.

[foose4string]

One of the companies you mentioned, Semroc, probably wouldn't sign up for that. Carl stated in the past that this one of the downfalls of Semroc in the original incarnation (too many with a vested interest in the company and too many chiefs) and vowed to not let the company get too far out of his reach again. Apparently Sheryl agrees. Frankensteining a bunch of great rocket companies together is fun dream, and sounds like a great proposition, but I like the identities that each of these companies has made for themselves. Pulling the talents together and making a dream team would have some distinct advantages, but the logistics would be a nightmare.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Agree. Nightmare is the term that popped into my head when I read this.

[Carl@Semroc]

One of the companies you mentioned, Semroc, probably wouldn't sign up for that. Carl stated in the past that this one of the downfalls of Semroc in the original incarnation (too many with a vested interest in the company and too many chiefs) and vowed to not let the company get too far out of his reach again. Apparently Sheryl agrees. Frankensteining a bunch of great rocket companies together is fun dream, and sounds like a great proposition, but I like the identities that each of these companies has made for themselves. Pulling the talents together and making a dream team would have some distinct advantages, but the logistics would be a nightmare.You remember well!

As long as I am alive, Semroc will never be for sale or participate in a merger. It IS my retirement, because I forgot how to fish and relax years ago. I meet more really good people on every trip than I EVER met in electronics.

[foose4string]

You remember well!



Yep. That's why your April fools joke didn't make any sense. Just left me feeling a little hungry for some reason. :D Good try though!

[STRMan]

Could such a super company have the same time warp Semroc shipping that allows your order to arrive at your doorstep 15 minuted before you actually place it? I doubt it! :chuckle:

[Rocketflyer]

You remember well!

As long as I am alive, Semroc will never be for sale or participate in a merger.[snip] I meet more really good people on every trip than I EVER met in electronics.


Gott Sie Danke!

[Leo]

Gott Sie Danke!

It's "Gott sei Dank" :) and for you english folk that's "Thank god" (it ain't happening) :D

[bob jablonski]

You remember well!

As long as I am alive, Semroc will never be for sale or participate in a merger. It IS my retirement, because I forgot how to fish and relax years ago. I meet more really good people on every trip than I EVER met in electronics.
Fishing relaxing??? I lived a block from a lake for 10 yeard and fished maybe three times.
Bow hunting for deer? Thats fun. Doing rocket stuff now thats my relaxation.
Mr. Bob
Starlight guru

[Bazookadale]

Frankensteining a bunch of great rocket companies together is fun dream, and sounds like a great proposition, but I like the identities that each of these companies has made for themselves.

Frankenstein is a good reference - you can stitch together great parts but if you give him an abnormal brain the townspeople will riot!

[JRThro]

Agree. Nightmare is the term that popped into my head when I read this.
But, but... the hobby could expand tenfold! (Somehow...)

[Doug Sams]

But, but... the hobby could expand tenfold! (Somehow...)In all seriousness, we could be on the verge of another space race which could indeed fuel a rapid expansion of the hobby market.

I was looking at the article on the web about China's latest satellite launch.

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sfn-090415-china-compass-launch.html

They're putting up their own GPS system. I can't draw a direct connection to how that would expand our space program - I can only anticipate some sort of competitive response - but it did occur to me this might prod the US to more activity which could in turn propel the hobby market.

Of course, moms might not be very amused when Junior starts asking for the newest Estes Search-and-Destroy Satellite Killer model http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif But I'm sure vendors will want to supply whatever demand which might arise http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Doug

.

[Rocketflyer]

It's "Gott sei Dank" :) and for you english folk that's "Thank god" (it ain't happening) :D


Thanks Leo. 44 years of not speaking German and Polish anymore. :o

[Jerry Irvine]

I agree with Carl. I have tried to form several teams over the years. Too many type A personalities in rocketry. That's why I suggested a mere distribution co-op. That already works in a variety of industries.

I wouldn't mind seeing Estes release one Semroc kit a year. Some might see real commercial success and Carl is likely to be far less needy than NCR was.

Jerry

[tbzep]

They're putting up their own GPS system. I can't draw a direct connection to how that would expand our space program - I can only anticipate some sort of competitive response - but it did occur to me this might prod the US to more activity which could in turn propel the hobby market.

I doubt it will fuel any increase in the space program budget at all. It wouldn't fit in well with the new administration's "Spread the Wealth" program.

[MarkB.]

NASA is how you would spell "welfare" for aerospace workers and "bailout" for aerospace companies. There are some good reasons the administration might need to throw some money at NASA if some big-ticket Defense items like the F-22 are cancelled. The Chinese are not exactly a space race until they do something we haven't already done, which isn't scheduled to happen for many years down the road even by the Chinese schedule. But we might see an increase in funding for the Ares boosters and infrastructure in Florida. It depends on how many senators are need to pass something the President really wants.

[JRThro]

It depends on how many senators are need to pass something the President really wants.It generally takes 50 or more to pass something.
:confused:

[tbzep]

NASA is how you would spell "welfare" for aerospace workers and "bailout" for aerospace companies. There are some good reasons the administration might need to throw some money at NASA if some big-ticket Defense items like the F-22 are cancelled. The Chinese are not exactly a space race until they do something we haven't already done, which isn't scheduled to happen for many years down the road even by the Chinese schedule. But we might see an increase in funding for the Ares boosters and infrastructure in Florida. It depends on how many senators are need to pass something the President really wants.

I understand that, but I'm saying I think the Pres. will want to take those tax dollars and spend them on social(ist) projects instead of NASA, regardless of the need for the defense contractors to find new projects. Those employees didn't get him elected the first time nor will they the next, so I don't think he's all that concerned with their job security. Time will tell.

[Carl@Semroc]

Is it still called a merger if one company is 1000 times bigger than the other. I would not see the point in merging with a company 1/1000 our size OR 1000 times our size. Even if the difference is 100 times the size, it still would not make sense in the market.

Fun speculation, but I don't think any of us small companies went to all the trouble of addressing a niche market to be merged, absorbed, or assimilated. We at Semroc, at least, want Estes-Cox to be the giant, so we don't have to. As spoken so eloquently earlier, the real fun in this industry is not the thousands that pass through, but the individuals that hang around.

Sort of like going to the mall. You might pass several hundred strangers there, but the one old friend you run into makes the trip worthwhile and memorable.

[barone]

(snip)....Sort of like going to the mall. You might pass several hundred strangers there, but the one old friend you run into makes the trip worthwhile and memorable.
Well said. :)

[Jeff Walther]

Wouldn't it be nice if all of the above mentioned could be merged together into one super rocket company.

It sounds like a nightmare to me.

I've worked for both large and small organizations and larger organizations seem to have a way of taking on an intelligence (I use the term loosely) of their own, which generates directives which make little to no sense outside of bizarro world.

At least when small organizations go off the deep end, you know it's because Jorge (picked this name purely as a name that (AFAIK) is not the name of anyone currently running a rocket company) at the big desk has lost his mind and you know it's time to move on. With a big organization, it's like Jorge is in charge in some kind of disembodied state. No one can find him to fire him or buy him out.

[Jeff Walther]

NASA is how you would spell "welfare" for aerospace workers and "bailout" for aerospace companies.

It may not be true in all cases, but it sure seemed true when I was at NASA JSC in the mid-80s. And it's just as disheartening and soul crushing as I imagine welfare would be. Ughh.

NASA. It's like watching your favorite uncle develop dementia.

[Jerry Irvine]

NASA is a 50 state program for a political reason.

Jerry

[sandman]

It sounds like a nightmare to me.

I've worked for both large and small organizations and larger organizations seem to have a way of taking on an intelligence (I use the term loosely) of their own, which generates directives which make little to no sense outside of bizarro world.

At least when small organizations go off the deep end, you know it's because Jorge (picked this name purely as a name that (AFAIK) is not the name of anyone currently running a rocket company) at the big desk has lost his mind and you know it's time to move on. With a big organization, it's like Jorge is in charge in some kind of disembodied state. No one can find him to fire him or buy him out.

Resistance is futile!

Your uniqueness will be absorbed into the collective mind.

And that's all I got to say about that.

[rokitflite]

Is it still called a merger if one company is 1000 times bigger than the other. I would not see the point in merging with a company 1/1000 our size OR 1000 times our size. Even if the difference is 100 times the size, it still would not make sense in the market.



I guess I'll tear up that contract you sent me at the beginning of April Carl... :(



;) :D

[Sunward]

....Wouldn't it be nice if all of the above mentioned could be merged together into one super rocket company......
Please, enough of these crazy ideas. Where do they come from?

Will never work and there is no benefit to doing such a large merger.

...As long as I am alive, Semroc will never be for sale or participate in a merger. ....
Never say never. Everyone has their price.

I just haven't offered it to you yet.

[Gus]

You remember well!

As long as I am alive, Semroc will never be for sale or participate in a merger.
Carl,

That's not what Bruce told me out behind the tent at NARAM when he sold me the certificates. :mad:

I think you better have a talk with that boy.



Man, this is just stinkin' great. The other half of my retirement portfolio is GM stock. ;)

[Royatl]

Carl,

That's not what Bruce told me out behind the tent at NARAM when he sold me the certificates. :mad:

I think you better have a talk with that boy.



Man, this is just stinkin' great. The other half of my retirement portfolio is GM stock. ;)


Wow! Sergey Brin is a principal of Semroc?? Who'da thunk?!!

[Bob Kaplow]

I will just mention the following four names. Look up their history, circa 1992-93.


Microbrick
Rocketflite
Energon
Dangerous Dave's Composites.


Mergers are tricky things. Often times very little good comes out of them.

A corpse is a corpse, of course, of course
And no one can talk to a corpse, of course
That is, of course, unless the corpse is the
famous MRED.

[Lyrics by Bob Wiersbe]

[Carl@Semroc]

I guess I'll tear up that contract you sent me at the beginning of April Carl... :(



;) :DI don't know WHAT I was thinking at the beginning of April. We are not big enough yet for you to acquire us!

Never say never. Everyone has their price.

I just haven't offered it to you yet. :D

Carl,

That's not what Bruce told me out behind the tent at NARAM when he sold me the certificates. :mad:
I think you better have a talk with that boy.
Man, this is just stinkin' great. The other half of my retirement portfolio is GM stock. ;)Whenever Bruce and Serg get together, I don't know what they are cooking up. :chuckle:

[Royatl]

A corpse is a corpse, of course, of course
And no one can talk to a corpse, of course
That is, of course, unless the corpse is the
famous MRED.

[Lyrics by Bob Wiersbe]


ROTFLMAO

(ow....)


(owww.....)


(please, make it stop!!!)

[Royatl]

A corpse is a corpse, of course, of course
And no one can talk to a corpse, of course
That is, of course, unless the corpse is the
famous MRED.

[Lyrics by Bob Wiersbe]


Anyway, anyone know whatever happened to Michael Platt and Emily, and the High Power Manufacturers Association or whatever it was called.

Anyone know what Dangerous Dave Gawlik is doing these days? Still in California?

[Bob Kaplow]

ROTFLMAO

(ow....)


(owww.....)


(please, make it stop!!!)


Roy, it NEVER stops.

For more of Bob Wiersbe's warped humor, check out

http://eisner.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ROCKET_CAROLS.TXT

[Bill]

NASA is how you would spell "welfare" for aerospace workers and "bailout" for aerospace companies. There are some good reasons the administration might need to throw some money at NASA if some big-ticket Defense items like the F-22 are cancelled. The Chinese are not exactly a space race until they do something we haven't already done, which isn't scheduled to happen for many years down the road even by the Chinese schedule. But we might see an increase in funding for the Ares boosters and infrastructure in Florida. It depends on how many senators are need to pass something the President really wants.


It was big news around here last week when the DOD said they were going to quit buying F-22s and buy more F-35s instead. Portions of both are made nearby in Fort Worth.

China is in a bit of a moon race with Japan and India. All three want a manned lunar mission by 2020. Unfortunately, I do not see anything which can whip up the kind of interest in space exploration in the US like Apollo.


Bill

[tbzep]

Unfortunately, I do not see anything which can whip up the kind of interest in space exploration in the US like Apollo.


Far too many people today have an attitude of "ME". Spend that money on me, not space or defense. Where's MY piece of the pie? Ask not what I can do for my country, what the heck can my country do for me? I can't fathom any space exploration goal that would change the minds of even a decent portion of Americans.

[ghrocketman]

The F-22 is the absolute LAST thing that should be cancelled from the defense budget.
I'd rather see that TURD F-35 "joint strike fighter" cancelled and the money diverted to a smaller but more versatile F22 fleet along with keeping the older F117, F15, and F16 flying in a supportive role.

The only aircraft in the US arsenal that is just as big of a TURD as the JSF is the F18.
The F18 is slow (WELL under Mach 2) compared to all other first-line US fighters and is functionally capable of doing many things, but NONE really well.
The Navy would have been smart to upgrade the existing F14's instead of mothballing them for the STUPOR horNIT F-18 E/F. Even the old war-horse F-4 could break Mach 2 and carry more ordnance than that thing.
I liken the F18 to being the ugly plane that is the "Jack of all trades, but King of NONE"
The ONLY jet-age US fighter aircraft that was UGLIER than the F-18 is the F-105 Thud.
The only thing that the F105 was good for was straight-line high speed bombing. As a fighter it was AWFUL.

I guess I'm one of few that prefer we equip our USAF/Navy with the absolute BEST that ANY money can buy instead of compromising, which is what both the F-35 and F-18 aircraft are. Dismal alternatives to much better airframes.

[Rocketflyer]

The F-22 is the absolute LAST thing that should be cancelled from the defense budget.
I'd rather see that TURD F-35 "joint strike fighter" cancelled and the money diverted to a smaller but more versatile F22 fleet along with keeping the older F117, F15, and F16 flying in a supportive role.

The only aircraft in the US arsenal that is just as big of a TURD as the JSF is the F18.
The F18 is slow (WELL under Mach 2) compared to all other first-line US fighters and is functionally capable of doing many things, but NONE really well.
The Navy would have been smart to upgrade the existing F14's instead of mothballing them for the STUPOR horNIT F-18 E/F. Even the old war-horse F-4 could break Mach 2 and carry more ordnance than that thing.
I liken the F18 to being the ugly plane that is the "Jack of all trades, but King of NONE"
The ONLY jet-age US fighter aircraft that was UGLIER than the F-18 is the F-105 Thud.
The only thing that the F105 was good for was straight-line high speed bombing. As a fighter it was AWFUL.

I guess I'm one of few that prefer we equip our USAF/Navy with the absolute BEST that ANY money can buy instead of compromising, which is what both the F-35 and F-18 aircraft are. Dismal alternatives to much better airframes.



Well Gh, gotta agree with you on the F-22. But the Thunder THUD was a fast assed medium bomber. Couldn't manuever though. As for the F-4, it just goes to show you that if you put bigger engines in it, you can get a bus to fly. And that is what the F-4 was, a flying bus. As a fighter, it sucked, and speed was what kept it out of harms way as it could not get out of it's own way. Not only that, the NVA didn't need radar to track it, you could see it coming from about 14 miles away with the twin smoke trails. Keep the Raptor and the Eagle and Falcon. I don't know about the F-18 to make a call.

[ghrocketman]

The F-4 was not as bad a fighter as some like to portray for the Vietnam-era.
The later models coninued in use up through desert storm as "Wild Weasels" armed with Shrike/Standard/HARM missiles for the radar-killer role.
It would not turn with the MiG 17's and 19's, but would turn as well as the 21.
That being said, it really did not matter too much that the F-4 could not out-turn the 17's and 19's as the tactics were just adjusted to take advantage of the F-4's far superior power curve/speed compared to the much weaker powered/slower MiGs.
The main problem with the F-4 was lack of a gun, which was wisely added-on in the field as well as integrated into later models. The first-gen Sidewinders of the day they carried were not nearly as good as they are now, but were decent and much better than the Falcon missile they replaced. The first-gen Sparrow missiles were woefully bad in failing to track/losing radar lock in so much as they were usually ripple fired in at least PAIRS in hope one would maintain track/lock and score a hit.

The 105 Thud could not turn/dogfight AT ALL.

[Rocket Doctor]

IN MY OPINION

We all know that one MEGA company would NOT work. But, the fact is, each company is an individual organization, run by a group or an individual, with a common purpose, to supply the mateerials needed for our hobby of model rocketry.

It might be a giant or a mom and pop operation, but, that's fine, we need both and everything inbetween.

What one company doesn't supply, another one will. It coulb be made in the USA or China or somewhere else. It could be plastic , balsa or a combination of materials.

The company can sell to the mass marketplace or, by mailorder, online or through hobby shops, that really doesn't matter, what really matters is there are many companies/individuals that have given us the opportuinity to buy their products.

There may be some speed bumps along the way and they might not do everything perfectly, but, we are only human, but, as I mentioned above, it's for a common goal, the hobby of model rocketry.

We haven't come this far, starting into our 51st year if someone didn't take a chance, have a vision to go forward.

The constand bombardment back and forth is counterproductive, we all need to step back and look at the hobby as a whole and make it our goal to expand the hobby.

As long as we play by the rules, using the NAR safety code, go according to government regulations, and preach SAFETY, we will survive as a hobby.

In this climate of the recession, and litigation, any company faces many challenges just to survive.

We also have to realize that our hobby is a niche hobby, what has happened with plastic models, balsa built planes, basically, they are history.

Motors is another issue, with the very high liability insurance coverage, the price of black powder, government regulations, and SAFETY concerns, it is a great challenge to provide motors under these conditions at an affordable price. But, we do have motors. Without those motors, the kits are useless.

I do hope that everyone in the industry can work together and continue to supply the quality rocketry materials that we need.

This is my personal opinion................

[GuyNoir]

Man, this is just stinkin' great. The other half of my retirement portfolio is GM stock. ;)

Good grief, man. You shoulda known better. That CUSIP's not valid!!!!

[Carl@Semroc]

Good grief, man. You shoulda known better. That CUSIP's not valid!!!!We did not have internet on the field so he could look it up!

And, which one, Semroc or GM? :chuckle:

[billspad]

So am I the only one who had to Google CUSIP to find out what it was?

[jdbectec]

So am I the only one who had to Google CUSIP to find out what it was?


No Bill you're not, I had to look it up too. I'm still not sure what it means. :confused:

You don't suppose we didn't know that term because you're a plumber and I'm a carpenter, do you? :chuckle:

[Jeff Walther]

No Bill you're not, I had to look it up too. I'm still not sure what it means. :confused:

You don't suppose we didn't know that term because you're a plumber and I'm a carpenter, do you? :chuckle:

Nope. I don't know what it means either and I have way too many college credits.

[billspad]

Nope. I don't know what it means either and I have way too many college credits.

It must be one of those fancy acronyms that people in the investment banking industry use to get the government to loan them huge amounts of money to fix the mess they made. (No offense to Mr. Noir who probably isn't responsible for the condition of the economy.)

[jdbectec]

It must be one of those fancy acronyms that people in the investment banking industry use to get the government to loan them huge amounts of money to fix the mess they made. (No offense to Mr. Noir who probably isn't responsible for the condition of the economy.)


I think you've hit the nail right on the head! :D

[billspad]

I think you've hit the nail right on the head! :D

Good carpentry reference. We don't have a plumbing equivalent of hitting the nail on the head.

[Chas Russell]

Bill is flushed with envy!

[jdbectec]

Good carpentry reference. We don't have a plumbing equivalent of hitting the nail on the head.


Actually, the Carpentry reference was unintentional. :o

[billspad]

Bill is flushed with envy!

We really need an audio smilie that can do a rimshot.

[GuyNoir]

So am I the only one who had to Google CUSIP to find out what it was?

Just to shake some salt into your investment banking wound, I used to know the forumla for generating the CUSIP check digit. :chuckle:

[GuyNoir]

(No offense to Mr. Noir who probably isn't responsible for the condition of the economy.)

I am reasonably confident that, in the words of a famous Millennium Falcon pilot "It's not my fault!"

And you gotta come up with a lot more than hassling me about my investment banking background to offend.

(Aside to other readers: For a good insight into what the investment banking business was like, at least when I went into it, read Michael Lewis' book "Liar's Poker". About 80% of what happens to Lewis during his time at Salomon Brothers happened to me (at a much smaller firm.)

[billspad]

I am reasonably confident that, in the words of a famous Millennium Falcon pilot "It's not my fault!"

After reading a lot financial stuff in the news that I can't comprehend, I'm not even sure that it wasn't my fault!

[pantherjon]

I will have to fess up..It was all my fault..Yep, all mine..Blame everything on me..Sorry..Took some bad advice...Stupid cat!































:p ;)

[Bob Kaplow]

Just to shake some salt into your investment banking wound, I used to know the forumla for generating the CUSIP check digit. :chuckle:

Isn't it just add-double-add? It's used for a LOT of different numerical check digits.

Bunny, I was doing those calculation before we ever met at NARAM-17! In COBOL on a computer whose main memory was a rotating disk :chuckle:

[Gus]

Anybody else notice that as soon as the NAR made a leadership change the entire world economy tanked?

True, true, and unrelated?

I think not! ;)

[Jeff Walther]

Anybody else notice that as soon as the NAR made a leadership change the entire world economy tanked?

True, true, and unrelated?

I think not! ;)

I think that you have to look at longer range causes. While it is true that I've been gainfully employed since Aug. of 2007, before that I was unemployed for almost six years.

During that time I spent almost no money other than on food and mortgage and lived off of savings.

I submit that it was my lack of spending during those years which caused the economy to tank. Further, I was withdrawing money from savings, reducing the funds available for new lending.

The clear lesson to draw is that folks should make sure I always have a job, otherwise a year later the economy will tank. :cool: