View Full Version : Importing foreign-made model rocket motors?
blackshire
04-13-2009, 08:36 PM
Hello All,
The threads about the Polish and Czech model rocket motors make me wonder--would it be possible for the NAR to enter into reciprocal agreements with their counterpart model rocketry governing organizations in these countries so that each organization's certified motors would be accepted by the other?
(I'm not 100% certain, but I *think* the NAR and CAR had such an arrangement regarding the Canadian Canaroc motors.)
I don't think Czech, Polish, or Russian model rocket motors are any less reliable than American ones. (Since model rocketeers in these countries often have less disposable income to spend on replacements for CATO'ed motors and damaged/destroyed rockets, this alone is a "built-in" incentive for these manufacturers to offer only extremely reliable motors.)
In any event, if these motors were easily available in the USA we would have access to a much greater variety of sizes and total impulse/average thrust/delay combinations. Also, the competition could help to reduce motor prices.
bob jablonski
04-14-2009, 08:03 AM
Hello All,
The threads about the Polish and Czech model rocket motors make me wonder--would it be possible for the NAR to enter into reciprocal agreements with their counterpart model rocketry governing organizations in these countries so that each organization's certified motors would be accepted by the other?
(I'm not 100% certain, but I *think* the NAR and CAR had such an arrangement regarding the Canadian Canaroc motors.)
I don't think Czech, Polish, or Russian model rocket motors are any less reliable than American ones. (Since model rocketeers in these countries often have less disposable income to spend on replacements for CATO'ed motors and damaged/destroyed rockets, this alone is a "built-in" incentive for these manufacturers to offer only extremely reliable motors.)
In any event, if these motors were easily available in the USA we would have access to a much greater variety of sizes and total impulse/average thrust/delay combinations. Also, the competition could help to reduce motor prices.
I don't think the NAR would import motors as they would probably loose there not for profit status. Plus there is lots of red tape to get them into the country. Unless they can import tens of thousands or more it's not feasable. There is lots more red tape in that stuff now then when Canaroc was around. think DOT, BATF ect.
Mr. Bob
Royatl
04-14-2009, 09:03 AM
Hello All,
The threads about the Polish and Czech model rocket motors make me wonder--would it be possible for the NAR to enter into reciprocal agreements with their counterpart model rocketry governing organizations in these countries so that each organization's certified motors would be accepted by the other?
(I'm not 100% certain, but I *think* the NAR and CAR had such an arrangement regarding the Canadian Canaroc motors.)
They *have* such an arrangement. It covers all sorts of motors, high and low power.
1. Is there an equivalent national organization in Poland and Czech Republic, that certifies model rocket motors? I don't recall one. If there is, I'm sure a reciprocal arrangement could be made, if the national org has proper testing procedures and facilities. Otherwise, an importer could have NAR certify them.
2. Certification is not much of a roadblock. Import is. And NAR isn't in the business of importing model rocket motors. You would have to find a company willing to go through the process, as Quest/MRC did with the Zaschen/WECO motors from Germany, and more recently the Sky motors from China. Quest and MRC were probably willing because ultimately they could get enough motors and sell them for a decent price, since Zaschen and Sky could make plenty of motors. Could the Polish and Czech motors be made in enough quantity for someone here to justify going through the various regulatory hoops and costs and be able to sell them at a price that people here would want to pay??
blackshire
04-14-2009, 09:06 AM
I don't think the NAR would import motors as they would probably loose there not for profit status. Plus there is lots of red tape to get them into the country. Unless they can import tens of thousands or more it's not feasable. There is lots more red tape in that stuff now then when Canaroc was around. think DOT, BATF ect.
Mr. Bob
The NAR wouldn't necessarily have to do the actual importing. My thought was just that they could adopt a policy of accepting the Czech, Polish, and Russian motors' certifications in their countries of origin in exchange for those nations' model rocketry governing organizations accepting the NAR's certifications of US motors. (An analogy would be the reciprocal acceptance of driver licenses between European Union member countries.)
blackshire
04-14-2009, 09:19 AM
They *have* such an arrangement. It covers all sorts of motors, high and low power.
1. Is there an equivalent national organization in Poland and Czech Republic, that certifies model rocket motors? I don't recall one. If there is, I'm sure a reciprocal arrangement could be made, if the national org has proper testing procedures and facilities. Otherwise, an importer could have NAR certify them.
2. Certification is not much of a roadblock. Import is. And NAR isn't in the business of importing model rocket motors. You would have to find a company willing to go through the process, as Quest/MRC did with the Zaschen/WECO motors from Germany, and more recently the Sky motors from China. Quest and MRC were probably willing because ultimately they could get enough motors and sell them for a decent price, since Zaschen and Sky could make plenty of motors. Could the Polish and Czech motors be made in enough quantity for someone here to justify going through the various regulatory hoops and costs and be able to sell them at a price that people here would want to pay??
Hmmm...Then this is really more a problem of the shipping cost versus the quantity of motors. In 2003 I sold 5,000 Estes A8-3 motors to a customer in Japan. The paperwork was very straightforward (the only annoying part was printing up the UN Explosive code number labels and taping them to each and every box!). I don't remember what the shipping charges were off the top of my head, but they didn't give me or him sticker shock. Whether or not the shipping charges for buying, say, just 250 Czech Rapier RM model rocket motors would be equally reasonable is another matter.
Royatl
04-14-2009, 09:42 AM
Hmmm...Then this is really more a problem of the shipping cost versus the quantity of motors. In 2003 I sold 5,000 Estes A8-3 motors to a customer in Japan. The paperwork was very straightforward (the only annoying part was printing up the UN Explosive code number labels and taping them to each and every box!). I don't remember what the shipping charges were off the top of my head, but they didn't give me or him sticker shock. Whether or not the shipping charges for buying, say, just 250 Czech Rapier RM model rocket motors would be equally reasonable is another matter.
Estes possibly already ships more motors overseas each year than Quest has gotten from Germany/China over many years. You're probably piggy-backing on that experience.
blackshire
04-14-2009, 10:16 AM
Estes possibly already ships more motors overseas each year than Quest has gotten from Germany/China over many years. You're probably piggy-backing on that experience.
Oddly enough, shipping the 5,000 motors to Japan (via FedEx) was far easier than the first time I mailed a small box of motors domestically. The folks at the Post Office insisted that mailing motors was illegal until I calmly pointed out the regulations in their own rulebook sitting on the counter. It took several minutes of going over each point of the requirements (which I demonstrated that I'd met or exceeded) before they finally relented and processed the parcel.
billspad
04-14-2009, 10:47 AM
The NAR wouldn't necessarily have to do the actual importing. My thought was just that they could adopt a policy of accepting the Czech, Polish, and Russian motors' certifications in their countries of origin in exchange for those nations' model rocketry governing organizations accepting the NAR's certifications of US motors. (An analogy would be the reciprocal acceptance of driver licenses between European Union member countries.)
It shouldn't be a problem if they could demonstrate that they test to NFPA 1125.
georgegassaway
04-14-2009, 11:09 AM
An excerpt from a RP message written by Bill Stine, which Gus recently linked to in the “Rapier makes rocket motors too” thread:
http://www.rocketryplanet.com/content/view/189/155/
*******
[mind-numbing portion on what you need to MAKE engines is not quoted]
So now you're making rocket motors! But wait you can't sell or ship them yet. You've got more hoops to jump through!
Explosives bureau
You must submit your rocket motors to Dr. Chang to have him issue a DOT classification letter.
EX number
Now you must submit the classification letter from the Explosives Bureau to the DOT to get an EX number assigned.
NAR certification
You must submit you motors to the NAR for testing and certification.
California State Fire Marshal
To sell your motors in California you must get a license and approval from the California State Fire Marshal.
UN Box testing
The boxes you ship your product in must be tested and certified to meet the UN Specifications for shipping Hazardous Materials.
Wasn't this fun! Estes, Quest and Aerotech do everything I just described to bring you quality motors at an affordable price. .........
*******
The two biggest showstoppers there are the DOT classification and the EX numbers. Those take time and even more so, take MONEY. Last I heard, at least $10,000, and that was 10+ years ago. They do not care if you plan to sell engines by the hundreds, or engines by the billions, the cost is the same.
The one good thing is that is it not based on each engine type, but for the propellant type used.
Of course some of you might ask, how in the **** do the Rapier Model Plane engines make it in? The laws and regs are no different. Three simple words: “under the radar”. I do not think that the Rapier engines have that, no model airplane dealer in the US could sell enough Rapiers to justify paying $10,000.
There may be more NAR Contest fliers in the US now than there are F/F plane fliers who would buy Rapiers for their planes. And that $10k cost was the deal-killer when an NAR member considered about 8-9 years ago legally importing and certifying Rapier model rocket engines. Though the idea was to have Rapier make some contest-worthy 10-11mm B and below engines, and not the 15mm motors, after Apogee stopped making their 11mm micro engines.
Also, BTW, I would not be surprised, at all, if the Jetex engines also have been “under the radar” all this time too.
And anyone reading this should be d***ed careful not to go turning over any rocks and screw it up for the model airplane guys, as though the hobby of Free Flight model planes is not suffering enough. I can just imagine someone going to some regulatory agency to “see if it is OK to import Rapier Model Rocket engines since the airplane versions are sold here”. And the response would almost certainly be that none of them are supposed to be sold here, but thanks for bringing to their attention the enforcement tip!
- George Gassaway
Royatl
04-14-2009, 11:10 AM
It shouldn't be a problem if they could demonstrate that they test to NFPA 1125.
The point I was making was questioning whether they even *have* a national organization that is set up to do that. i.e. Who would NAR reciprocate with? So, just get them imported, then whoever imports them submits them to you guys.
shockwaveriderz
04-14-2009, 11:55 AM
Doesn't the NAR FAI program already have some form of agreement with foreign motor makers?
anyway, I know the testing regime the various FAI countries is more or less as rigorous as the NAR one.
George hit the proverbial nail on the head... the USDOT costs are what makes importation expensive. along with shipping and monetary fluctuations.
You can find Czech and Polish stores online that even sell Estes rocket engines, but their cost is way above Saschen/Held//Quest made in Germany; or these Polish EMI and or Czech Rapiers
Now the good news, is I actually took the time to contact all 4 certified labs that the USDOT will accept testing results from and the price range to get a EX number ranged from $500 for a single engine to close to 10K as George pointed out.
The bad news is a potential importer would have to provide dimensioned drawings of the engines, provide a MSDS and some sample engines for testing. The Czech and Polish makers may consider some of this info proprietary; although only the testers would ever see the info.
why such a large range for doing essentially the exact same testing? Capitalistic greed no doubt.
There should be more than 4 government sanctioned monopolies to do this testing and the testing should not cost as much as it does, at least NOT for small ABCD size model rocket engines.
all I can say is good luck. If you import them, they will sell.
terry dean
billspad
04-14-2009, 04:42 PM
The point I was making was questioning whether they even *have* a national organization that is set up to do that. i.e. Who would NAR reciprocate with? So, just get them imported, then whoever imports them submits them to you guys.
Getting them imported would be the hard part. All S & T needs is this (http://www.nar.org/SandT/docs/ST-3_NewCert.pdf)and some motors.
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