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tbzep
04-12-2009, 11:16 AM
After looking at Dale's motor pages, it makes me wonder just how many of these folks made their own motors and how many were made for them by somebody else.

We all know Estes made motors for Centuri and MMI. Who else did they make motors for?

Who else manufactured motors for relabling and who did they go to?

Jerry Irvine
04-12-2009, 11:47 AM
Most of these motor companies are one or two man operations. There have been a ton of them over the years. I started hosting launches at Lucerne in a moment in history to give three of them a venue for people to see what they have and fly rockets with them. That eventually gave rise to over a dozen different motor companies from that launch alone including AeroTech, Ace, Hypertek, CD#2, CD#3, Plasmajet, USR, IBCo, Kosdon, CompDist, and many others.

There were also motor company hotspots surrounding Ohio, Florida and Texas.

The companies which survived had high prices, some sort of distribution or discharge network and favorable press.

I formed a magazine before HPR was formalized by NAR and TRA to bootstrap the trade and get the maximal number of vendors out there. There was a huge initial blast-back by NAR and Estes. Once they realized we had good intentions and the will to continue our already 15 year old legacy of safety and fun, they switched to public acceptance and leveraging their considerable clout within regulatory bodies. That legacy of over-regulation to spite us has survived to this day.

We need to self-de-regulate rocketry in sensible ways to bring the groundwork for growth back in.

There is no reason other than self imposed rules and traditions why we could not have DOZENS of boutique motor makers today. That would be righteous!

Jerry

lawndart
04-12-2009, 11:56 AM
After looking at Dale's motor pages, it makes me wonder just how many of these folks made their own motors and how many were made for them by somebody else.

We all know Estes made motors for Centuri and MMI. Who else did they make motors for?

Who else manufactured motors for relabling and who did they go to?

I'm trying to add that info to the website. I know that Aerotech/ISP and Estes (and Canaroc?) made motors for relabeling. Don't think anyone else had the manufacturing capacity.

Hey Jerry, I'm waiting for the rest of the Crm's to get up on your website. I have a few of the early issues and I still pull them out to read. Hope you don't mind that I pulled some photos from the USR website.

Jerry Irvine
04-12-2009, 12:22 PM
I don't mind.

AT relabeled for North Coast, USR, Apogee, Rocket Vision, FSI for a while and of course Kosdon.

Plasmajet relabeled for USR for a while but most of those were sold as Plasmajet brand itself.

Vulcan made some motors for USR for FX stuff, not consumer stuff.

Jerry

Ltvscout
04-12-2009, 01:18 PM
AT relabeled for North Coast, USR, Apogee, Rocket Vision, FSI for a while and of course Kosdon.
I almost forgot about Rocket Vision. I got a bunch of their motors for cheap a number of years ago when they closed up shop. They were blowing them out on the old, original ROL auction site.

Rocket Doctor
04-12-2009, 01:33 PM
I don't mind.

AT relabeled for North Coast, USR, Apogee, Rocket Vision, FSI for a while and of course Kosdon.

Plasmajet relabeled for USR for a while but most of those were sold as Plasmajet brand itself.

Vulcan made some motors for USR for FX stuff, not consumer stuff.

Jerry

Have you heard of Eastern ballastic motors,made in New Jeersey in the early 60's?

georgegassaway
04-12-2009, 02:34 PM
As I posted in Dale's thread on the return of his motor website, the "ASC" engines of around 1975-76 were made by AVI (Mike Bergenske).

Originally Bergenske created his own company, Model Rocket Industries (MRI) sometime in the mid-late 1960's. Then General Mills bought it to add to MPC for a rocket div, keeping on Bergenske, who brought in G Harry Stine to design some of the models, and three plastic models (the flying Vostok and Titan-III, and the non-flying Pilgrim Observer). When the Space Race model rocketry Fad went bust, General Mills/MPC dropped rockets, and Bergenske & a few others bought what was left for pennies (including all the engine machines and molds), and created AVI. Around late 1978 to early 1979 AVI went bankrupt, by late 1979 they were auctioned off.

- George Gassaway

Doug Sams
04-12-2009, 04:28 PM
Around late 1978 to early 1979 AVI went bankrupt, by late 1979 they were auctioned off.And from this, the stash of MPC kits leftover is still being sold off 30 years later, right?

http://www.skyhighhobbies.com/rocketkits.htm

I can't help but think General Mills took a bath on these.

Doug

.

Jerry Irvine
04-12-2009, 10:23 PM
Estes puts more in landfills every year than everybody else combined makes. Hey Barry may I have the disposal contract? ;)

I have not scanned the remaining CRm's yet so if you do I'll upload them. I ran out of server space back when it used to be scarce.

If I could wish for something it would be for 3-4 guys to come over with computers and scanners for several days and start to save history. I have a great place to do it.

Jerry

Rocketflyer
04-13-2009, 10:01 AM
I don't mind.

AT relabeled for North Coast, USR, Apogee, Rocket Vision, FSI for a while and of course Kosdon.

Plasmajet relabeled for USR for a while but most of those were sold as Plasmajet brand itself.

Vulcan made some motors for USR for FX stuff, not consumer stuff.

Jerry


Mike Gillette used to make motors, though I don't recall their name. He called AT's wimpy motors, esp the J350, when it came out. IIRC he had a 29mm "I". In talking with him a few times, he stated none of his stuff was certed by TRA or NAR. He didn't like doing that., didn't like spending the bucks to do it. Always wonderd if they were made by Vulcan (Scott Dixon). His kits were first class.

Jerry Irvine
04-13-2009, 10:37 AM
RDS motors were made by DPT using my designs, ACS DOT papers and DPT and RDS even got ATF LEMP at TRA request and even CSFM approval only to be rejected by TRA as "Jerry motors".

Mick would have been able to fill the entire void left by the Errortech accident. TRA kept ACS, RDS, DPT, and even CTI out of the market to "give AT a chance to recover". TRA "let" AT contract through Ellis.

That whole 4 year era was a mess.

Mick had some interesting motors made that even USR didn't contract, like a progressive trace whitestar and stardust K675 and L750 54mm.

Jerry

mycrofte
04-13-2009, 11:01 AM
I take it that was about the same thing that happened in the R/C plane world back in the 80's!?!

I had gotten out of R/C while in the Airforce. A friend of mine said the clubs were all lead by doctors and lawyers that wouldn't even talk to you unless your airplane cost more than $400. Even the old timers that founded the clubs were being pushed out after a while. And, it was getting to where you couldn't enter an event because, conveniently, only the expensive kits were 'certified'...

Rocketflyer
04-13-2009, 12:15 PM
RDS motors were made by DPT using my designs, ACS DOT papers and DPT and RDS even got ATF LEMP at TRA request and even CSFM approval only to be rejected by TRA as "Jerry motors".

Mick would have been able to fill the entire void left by the Errortech accident. TRA kept ACS, RDS, DPT, and even CTI out of the market to "give AT a chance to recover". TRA "let" AT contract through Ellis.

That whole 4 year era was a mess.

Mick had some interesting motors made that even USR didn't contract, like a progressive trace whitestar and stardust K675 and L750 54mm.

Jerry


Thanks for the info, Jerry. Yeah I remember Mike saying that I should try real motors like his "K" and"L's."

You are right, those years were messed up, and Mike was fighting hard on all fronts.

Bob Kaplow
04-13-2009, 01:32 PM
PML motors weer also relabeled Aerotech.

And way back in the day, ASC and CMR motors were relabeled AVI motors.

Jerry Irvine
04-13-2009, 03:21 PM
Our club Claremont Rocket Society was a Centuri and Estes dealer in the clubhouse. We bought a bunch of AVI motors as well as FSI.

Jerry

lawndart
04-13-2009, 05:26 PM
PML motors weer also relabeled Aerotech.

And way back in the day, ASC and CMR motors were relabeled AVI motors.

Bob, when did CMR sell motors? Do you have any (or more to the point - PHOTOS)?

Jerry Irvine
04-13-2009, 06:27 PM
Bob, when did CMR sell motors? Do you have any (or more to the point - PHOTOS)?

Ditto.

Jerry

DPS was an abortion from Lucerne.

I was the first dealer for IBCo, Plasmajet, AT, and CD #2.

Doug Sams
04-13-2009, 06:38 PM
Bob, when did CMR sell motors? Do you have any (or more to the point - PHOTOS)?Dale,

FWIW, the 1972 catalog on ninfinger lists them as (re-)selling MPC and FSI motors. http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/catalogs/cmr72/72cmr20.html

Doug

.

shockwaveriderz
04-21-2009, 10:39 AM
Estes remanufactured motors for Irv Wait's RDC for a while before he started making his own.
Estes alo made the motorsfor Rocket SUpply Company.
Estes also sold motors to Central Rocket Co.

AVI made some motors for both Cox and Canaroc.

MMI and CRC both sold Brown Manufactured Rock-A-Chutes


EDIT

while we are on this topic I thought I would provide the following historical information:

Between 5/6/1960 and 8/1/1965 Estes Industries sold the following number of engines to the following:

1. Centuri Engineering 198,009
2. RDC 12,572
3. Rocket Supply Co 2,842
4. United Scientific Co/Central Rocket Co. 25,200


Between Nov-Dec 1957 and January 1959 MMI sold 117,984 engines . These were Brown Manufactured by his Zenith Specialties Co.

MMI sold 12,422 units ie model rocket kits

Between 3/31/1961 and 2/25/64 Estes Industries purchased 76,000 red or pink polyethelene parachutes from MMI

Between Oct 1959 and Dec 1964 Orv Carlisle sold 5, 021 Brown Manufactured Rock-A-Chutes to Central Rocket Co (CRC) and 1,690 Kits


terry dean