New Red Max Blues

[tbzep]

My son finally got his new Red Max kit, but was extremely disappointed that the decals did not include the white X882, nor the white hands and feet for the nosecone. :(

[Leo]

..., nor the white hands and feet for the nosecone. :(

They are missing too!? :mad:

[tbzep]

That's what he told me. He disappeared to the rocket building room with it, so I haven't laid eyes on the contents yet. You said "too" as if something else is missing. ??????

[cas2047]

My son finally got his new Red Max kit, but was extremely disappointed that the decals did not include the white X882, nor the white hands and feet for the nosecone. :(

It looks like whoever re-desinged the decals didn't pay attention and on top of that either Estes has no Quality Assurance program or the one they do have doesn't work.

Something strange though. I went out to Jim Z's and the decal set there doesn't have the X882 from what I can see. I cloned the DER Red Max last year and ordered from Excelsior Rocetry and that set did have it. I wonder if Estes copied the decal set from Jim Z's...???

[Leo]

That's what he told me. He disappeared to the rocket building room with it, so I haven't laid eyes on the contents yet. You said "too" as if something else is missing. ??????

In addition to your quote in my reply I knew beforehand the X882 was missing :)


I just checked my original Red Max decal that I have lying around and it has all the parts including the X882. And my built Red Max also has it. Wonder why they didn't include all parts of the decal in the new release :confused:

[tbzep]

It makes me think that they just scanned an old decal for their new production in China and the solid white ones didnt show up....and the person who did it wasn't paying attention. :confused:

[foose4string]

It makes me think that they just scanned an old decal for their new production in China and the solid white ones didnt show up....and the person who did it wasn't paying attention. :confused:

Good assumption, makes sense to me.

[Eagle3]

I got the impression from Roguepink that the decals are all new for the re-releases. He said he had made the decals for the Interceptors.

[tbzep]

I got the impression from Roguepink that the decals are all new for the re-releases. He said he had made the decals for the Interceptors.

Could have...like Kurt S. who redrew many of his .pdf decals based on scans of the originals.

[Mach1]

I too was disappointed in the new Red Max'es decals. For starters, as everyone else already knows, the "X882" is missing. The white "Mitt Grabben" and "Nicht Stompen" hand and feet decals are missing.

One thing I have noticed that I have not seen mentioned yet is the black foot "Nicht Stompen" decal is also screwed up. Look at it close and it's like the letter "M" in "Stompen" separated and it's spelled "Nicht Stoivien"

Anyone else notice that? I applaud Estes for giving us this kit, along with waterslides, but they really screwed these decals up bad. This rocket is all about the decals! How did they mess this up so bad?

I have not applied mine yet, but I'm sure they also have the "white shadow" problem that others have reported.

[Royatl]

I got the impression from Roguepink that the decals are all new for the re-releases. He said he had made the decals for the Interceptors.

RoguePink also said he redrew the decals for the Red Max, and was quite proud of the fact a few months ago. He's a member here, but I haven't seen him since he moved over to the Cox side of the biz.

[scigs30]

I have discussed this over at the rocketryforum under New Der Red Max. The new decals are tough to work with. I used micro scale products and still had a tough time with them. The other main issue besides the missing decals is the lack of quality control. If you look at the "Der Red Max" you will notice that there is a white shadow around the decal and that there is white in the "R". If you look at front card the decal is correct. I finished mine and ended up printing the "Der Red Max" on my Alps printer. There is also a white shadow around the little skulls. I talked with Christine at Estes about this and she forwarded my complaint to quality control. She also said that the decals made in USA for the demo rocket is not the same decal that is sent over to China. I don't know how they make the decal here maybe RP can tell us. Christine said the decal is designed here but China makes it....Contact Estes and voice your concerns. I am almost done with my new Interceptor and will let you know how the decals are with that kit.

[cas2047]

She also said that the decals made in USA for the demo rocket is not the same decal that is sent over to China.

So now to get my new Estes DER Red Max to look like the original Estes DER Red Max kit I need to go to one of the excellent third party decal makers to get the correct decals for the Estes DER Red Max kit. What's wrong with this picture??? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[scigs30]

Ummmmmmmm Yep. The wrap around decal is fine and looks just like the orig. I have 3 orig. old Der Red Max and it looks the same. I have ordered the after market decals for the Der Red Max and they problem they have is the white skulls. The Alps printer that they use does not print white very well the white decal has a pinkish tone to it. But you could use the black lettering and the white X882 with not problems. Then use the Estes wrap around decal and white skull. On the wrap around, I used one drop of liquid soap in water and brushed the rocket where the decal goes. I also put 3 coats of Microscale decal film on it before putting it in the water. The soap water solution lets me move the decal around without problems. Here is a picture of my orig. Der Red Max next to the new Der Red Max.
http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/DerRedmax037.jpg

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k211/scigs30/DerRedmax036.jpg

[cas2047]

First off - those are a couple of fine looking DER Red Max's!

I guess all we can do besides purchasing the correct decal sets from third party vendors is to contact Estes to voice our disappointment.

I'd really like to hear roguepink's perspective on this.

[tbzep]

http://www.estesrockets.com/customerservice.php

[cas2047]

http://www.estesrockets.com/customerservice.php

I filled out the form that tbzep posted. Christine emailed me to tell me she was forwarding it on to Marketing and then an hour later I got this reply from Mike Fritz at Estes. He cc:d a bunch of other folks at Estes. I emailed back to ask if I could post his email here on YORF and he said absolutely so here it is.

Quote

Dear Mr. Casey.

Thank you for your email regarding the Max decal set. Unfortunately, I have just recently taken over the marketing position and I cannot say why the current decals were not reproduced as the original decals were. However, you comments are welcome and I will have one of our R&D guys research the archived model and see what we can do to update the current decal set to the original as you suggested. We have also noted that the resolution is not as good as could have been and we will work with the vendor to correct both. However, please be advised that this will take some time as we will have to exhaust our current inventory of kits before new decals could be incorporated. At this time, the reintroduce kit has little in the way of sales history, so do not expect a change before sometime in 2008.

Thanks and best regards,

Mike Fritz
Director – Estes Cox Marketing
End Quote

[scigs30]

Well, I will just continue to collect the OOP Estes kits. It appears no matter what Estes re-releases, it will be junk since it is coming from China and there is no quality control.

[Mach1]

Not a very encouraging response.

[dwmzmm]

Isn't the correct set of decals available from Tango Papa Decals? Just wondering, even
though I don't have the Der Red Max model myself (either the OOP nor new ones).

[Ltvscout]

Mike Fritz
Director – Estes Cox Marketing
End Quote
Wow. I didn't know Mike was back at Estes again.

[Mach1]

Isn't the correct set of decals available from Tango Papa Decals? Just wondering, even
though I don't have the Der Red Max model myself (either the OOP nor new ones).

Sure they are, I have built several DRM clones from Tango Papa's decals. They work fine. Point is, a guy should not have to do that. That's the point of buying the kit in the first place.


Building clones almost always involves multiple vendors, paying mulitiple shipping costs, buying Mean Machine kits just for the nose cone, etc. The cost adds up quick. I've never been able to build a DRM clone for the same cost or cheaper than what this re-issued kit costs.

[Carl@Semroc]

... so do not expect a change before sometime in 2008.Estes has some very patient customers! I don't think many of ours would wait for that long for us to fix a problem. :D

[scigs30]

I have both sets of decals from Papa Tango and Excel. They are great decals except for one area. The white lets the red show through and almost has a pinkish hue. I have an Alps printer myself and there is nothing you can do about this. But other than that they are great decals. One thing you could do is print the wrap around decal on white decal paper and this would help. With my old Der Red Max decals they are a lot thicker and easier to work with than the new ones. Like I said I am currently working on the new Interceptor and will give a report on those decals.

[Royatl]

Wow. I didn't know Mike was back at Estes again.

Is that a good sign?

[scigs30]

Estes has some very patient customers! I don't think many of ours would wait for that long for us to fix a problem. :D

Carl, I agree with you, I think most of us are dedicated to the "Estes" name of the 70's and 80's.......For myself I getting fed up with the Estes of today....I will admit that I have had great success with Christine at Estes. I like your company great products......

[Mach1]

Estes has some very patient customers! I don't think many of ours would wait for that long for us to fix a problem. :D

Indeed! We've waited 20+ years for this kit to come back! :eek:

[Ltvscout]

Is that a good sign?
I'm not sure to tell you the truth. I get the impression there's scary stuff going on over there.

[scigs30]

Just wondering what RD and RP think of all this?

[sandman]

Estes has some very patient customers! I don't think many of ours would wait for that long for us to fix a problem. :D

If you were having kits made in China they would have to. :D

Maybe they found out the white Chinese decals are lead based. :rolleyes:

I don't want any of you guys chewing on your Der Red Max kits! :mad:

[foose4string]

I figured it would be a while before anything was done. They've got thousands of newly shipped Red Max kits that need to be exhausted before they re-order new ones. Probably a one shot deal with China, and I don't think China is known for their return policies! Shipping them all back would be more trouble and dollars than it's worth, and even if they did, it would probably take until 2009 to before we saw the improved decals! So I guess 2008 is pretty good.....yeah right. Gotta love the "new" improved Estes. :p

[tbzep]

I filled out the form that tbzep posted. Christine emailed me to tell me she was forwarding it on to Marketing and then an hour later I got this reply from Mike Fritz at Estes. He cc:d a bunch of other folks at Estes. I emailed back to ask if I could post his email here on YORF and he said absolutely so here it is.

Quote

Dear Mr. Casey.

Thank you for your email regarding the Max decal set. Unfortunately, I have just recently taken over the marketing position and I cannot say why the current decals were not reproduced as the original decals were. However, you comments are welcome and I will have one of our R&D guys research the archived model and see what we can do to update the current decal set to the original as you suggested. We have also noted that the resolution is not as good as could have been and we will work with the vendor to correct both. However, please be advised that this will take some time as we will have to exhaust our current inventory of kits before new decals could be incorporated. At this time, the reintroduce kit has little in the way of sales history, so do not expect a change before sometime in 2008.

Thanks and best regards,

Mike Fritz
Director – Estes Cox Marketing
End Quote

You have more clout than me. I got an automated one line response with a ticket number and that's it.

[pantherjon]

Just a couple comments:

I see the white shadow type effect on the Der Red Max fin decals..True, it isn't as the originals were, but it also looks like it is a 'on purpose' printing effect as it is pretty uniform around the letters..Personally I like the look of it..But that's just my opinion :)

Also noticed the 'nicht stompen' decal does look like STOIVIPIN..lol..but in order to really see that flub you have to look perty close..

And just to show off here is my Candy Apple Red Der Red Max :D

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/DerRedMax010sm.jpg

[foose4string]

I agree Jon, I kind of like the effect actually. Kind of makes the text "pop" a little more against the red background. However, if you look at the new cover art, they aren't that way. There have also been new build pics posted showing some decals that were not like that. So, it makes me think it's not supposed to be that way. But that part really doesn't bother me too much. The missing white decals is a little more annoying to me. That was clearly an oversight that should have been caught before the re-issue was released.

[Chris_Timm]

I get the impression there's scary stuff going on over there.

Oh NO!!!!

They are converting all the kits to FOAM FINS!!!!

AARGH!

[Chris_Timm]

They've got thousands of newly shipped Red Max kits

I would have guessed that the production run was well over 10,000.
If they were slated for Walmart stock, then 50,000 would not be an unreasonable amount.

[cas2047]

Just a couple comments:

I see the white shadow type effect on the Der Red Max fin decals..True, it isn't as the originals were, but it also looks like it is a 'on purpose' printing effect as it is pretty uniform around the letters..Personally I like the look of it..But that's just my opinion :)

Also noticed the 'nicht stompen' decal does look like STOIVIPIN..lol..but in order to really see that flub you have to look perty close..

And just to show off here is my Candy Apple Red Der Red Max :D

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/Pantherjon/DerRedMax010sm.jpg


That is BEAUTIFUL! I'm definitely going with the Candy Apple Red on my next DRM build! :)

[foose4string]

I agree, that turned out really nice Jon. Probably your best work yet! ;)

[pantherjon]

Thank you :) I am quite pleased in how it turned out! I actually took the time to READ the can instructions when I went for that particular color!:eek:lol
I made an off-hand comment over at TRF when someone inquired about what red to use, and I said to use Candy Apple Red..And I got to thinking: That sounds like a good idea, I should do mine up like that! Well, lo and behold the next time I was in Wal*Mart I saw a rattle can of Testors' Candy Apple Red! Well, I picked it up and glancing at the instructions I saw it said to use a base coat of silver, gold or metallic copper..Well, I wanted it done right so I grabbed a can of silver..The to be extra safe I also grabbed a can of Testors pimer! So 3 step process to achieve a nice Candy Apple Red:

1: Testors Primer, sand minor areas..Did an AWESOME job filling the tube sirals and fin grain..Didn't have to sand much at all on the fins..
2: 2 light coats of silver with approx 36 hours dry time between coats
3: 2 light coats of the Candy Apple Red with about 30 minutes dry time between coats..Then I waited about 72 hours before putting the decals on :)

[pantherjon]

Oh NO!!!!

They are converting all the kits to FOAM FINS!!!!

AARGH!
You're kidding and being sarcastic, right?

:p

[Ltvscout]

Oh NO!!!!

They are converting all the kits to FOAM FINS!!!!

AARGH!
Ya, they sold out to Fun Rockets. :eek: :D

[foose4string]

You're kidding and being sarcastic, right?

:p

Just the fact that someone might be unsure or even believe it, speaks volumes! ;)

[Royatl]

Just the fact that someone might be unsure or even believe it, speaks volumes! ;)

RougePink did say once over on TRF that he really liked working with foam (which he used in the Porta Pot Shot and the Pop Fly)

[scigs30]

Here is the Email I received from Christine at Estes today re: Der Red Max decal

They will do a running change. We should see the new decals the beginning of the year.

Christine

[Ltvscout]

Here is the Email I received from Christine at Estes today re: Der Red Max decal

They will do a running change. We should see the new decals the beginning of the year.

Christine
Cool, thanks for the update.

[Shreadvector]

1) The slight error on reproducing the original is invisible to 95% of the 20,000 people who will buy the kit.

2) It will still look cool to them.

3) It will still fly stable (unlike other rockets...).

4) They listened and are fixing it 'on the run', meaning this kit is still being produced and is not a one shot production run.

5) Overall, that is pretty responsive and "good".

[Brian L Raney]

It may not be so bad in the long run. This version of 'DER RED MAX' will become a collectors' item because of the goof in the decals. If Estes is coming out with a fix for 2008, then I might as well as build this kit 'as is'. I can always build the correct decal version next year. :cool:

[Mach1]

I finished my Der Red Max Kit. I happened to have an X882 decal from an earlier cloning project, so on it went. :D It's too bad Estes goofed and left it off. These decals were in my opinion, very tough to work with. They were thin, stretched easy, wrinked and folded over on themselves easy too. Once it folded over on itself, forget it.

So I had to live with a few folded over corners, but most of all, the top wrap was a *PITA* to put on. I figured it would be, so I saved it for last. I had wrinkles folds, and it was totally messed up. I had to peel the whole thing off, re-wet it and give it second go. I'm suprised I was able to save it. It won't win any beauty contests, but who cares? I intend to fly the heck out of it!

I have attached a few pics of it with Big Red. :D

[Brian L Raney]

I finished my Der Red Max Kit. I happened to have an X882 decal from an earlier cloning project, so on it went. :D It's too bad Estes goofed and left it off. These decals were in my opinion, very tough to work with. They were thin, stretched easy, wrinked and folded over on themselves easy too. Once it folded over on itself, forget it.

So I had to live with a few folded over corners, but most of all, the top wrap was a *PITA* to put on. I figured it would be, so I saved it for last. I had wrinkles folds, and it was totally messed up. I had to peel the whole thing off, re-wet it and give it second go. I'm suprised I was able to save it. It won't win any beauty contests, but who cares? I intend to fly the heck out of it!

I have attached a few pics of it with Big Red. :D

I now think Estes didn't goof so much as they released the original decals for the MK-2 Citation version of 'RED MAX', which didn't have the X882 decal that the later KC-2 Citation and #651 version of 'DER RED MAX' had. So, I guessing their initial claim in favor of the original decals may be right after all.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/citation71/71cit10.html

[tbzep]

I now think Estes didn't goof so much as they released the original decals for the MK-2 Citation version of 'RED MAX', which didn't have the X882 decal that the later KC-2 Citation and #651 version of 'DER RED MAX' had. So, I guessing their initial claim in favor of the original decals may be right after all.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/catalogs/citation71/71cit10.html

Or did they just forget to put them on the catalog model....or was the nosecone turned the wrong way? :D

However, your theory doesn't fly because, IIRC, the kill decals (outhouses, stukas, tanks) did not get included in any Red Max decals until the Der Big Red Max came out in 1978, yet they are on the new decal set.

Big Red Max Linky (http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/78est004.html)

[Initiator001]

However, your theory doesn't fly because, IIRC, the kill decals (outhouses, stukas, tanks) did not get included in any Red Max decals until the Der Big Red Max came out in 1978, yet they are on the new decal set.

Big Red Max Linky (http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/78est004.html)

I bought the Citation series Red Max in 1972-73 and I recall the 'kill' decal being on the sheet.

I didn't use it on my model because there wasn't a picture of where to put it. :(

Bob

[Green Dragon]

I bought the Citation series Red Max in 1972-73 and I recall the 'kill' decal being on the sheet.

I didn't use it on my model because there wasn't a picture of where to put it. :(

Bob

I always thought that the 'kill'' decal was BIG RED only as well.

I have one ( just the kill decal from a sheet ) that I;ve saved for years to clone the Big red with ( which I just painted last weekm waiting on Tango decals to finish her up ( pics to follow )

on a related side note - the catalog pics of the BIG RED show it WITHOUT the white number decal(s) on the nose, so ..... is the sheet used for the rerelease a scan of the Big Red sheet ??? ( ie: no white nose decals ? )

also, seeing as I will build the Big Red without those decals, if someone wanted those for thier reissue that is missing same, drop me a line .

~ AL

[Royatl]

on a related side note - the catalog pics of the BIG RED show it WITHOUT the white number decal(s) on the nose, so ..... is the sheet used for the rerelease a scan of the Big Red sheet ??? ( ie: no white nose decals ? )

~ AL

Big Red did have the white nose decals. In fact I have an extra sheet (but the "X882" decal is in a corner and has a severe crease through it). :(

[Initiator001]

I have always believed that the Der Big Red Max used as many of the same parts as the 'standard' Der Red Max except for a longer body and stuffer/motor mount tube.

Doing so would certainly keep the cost of making a 'new' kit down.

Bob

[Royatl]

I have always believed that the Der Big Red Max used as many of the same parts as the 'standard' Der Red Max except for a longer body and stuffer/motor mount tube.

Doing so would certainly keep the cost of making a 'new' kit down.

Bob

I'm almost certain that's the case. I had both rockets back in '78 when DBRM came out, and I don't recall any major difference between the two other than the obvious. Still have my DBRM. And now I once again have a DRM.

[tbzep]

I was fairly sure my first DRM didn't have the kill decals, but I know my second one that I had after the big DRM came out did and it also had the white decals. I can't be positive about it because I don't have a pre 1978 kit laying around. Somebody open up their still sealed Citation DRM box and tell us once and for all! :D

[Initiator001]

On e-Bay, a Citation Red max is up for auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-estes-rocket-red-max-mk-2-rare-complete_W0QQitemZ140154860195QQihZ004QQcategoryZ2567QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The box has been opened and the parts displayed. The decal sheet on the right side of one of the pictures clearly shows the 'kill' decal.

Bob

[Brian L Raney]

On e-Bay, a Citation Red max is up for auction.

http://cgi.ebay.com/vintage-estes-rocket-red-max-mk-2-rare-complete_W0QQitemZ140154860195QQihZ004QQcategoryZ2567QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The box has been opened and the parts displayed. The decal sheet on the right side of one of the pictures clearly shows the 'kill' decal.

Bob

I don't see any X882, white hands or feet decals either. Ver-r-ry interesting!

I know they would appear in later kits, but weren't those extra missing decals really for the camouflage version of Der Red Max? :confused:

[Royatl]

I don't see any X882, white hands or feet decals either. Ver-r-ry interesting!

I know they would appear in later kits, but weren't those extra missing decals really for the camouflage version of Der Red Max? :confused:

They're there. You can't see em cause they're WHITE! Upper left hand corner as we look at it is the X882 decal. The others are to either side of the skull & crossbones, near the similar black decals.

[tbzep]

They're there. You can't see em cause they're WHITE! Upper left hand corner as we look at it is the X882 decal. The others are to either side of the skull & crossbones, near the similar black decals.

Yep. I had to get off the laptop LCD screen and on a normal monitor to see the white ones.

Good call on the Citation kill decal, Bob!

[Brian L Raney]

They're there. You can't see em cause they're WHITE! Upper left hand corner as we look at it is the X882 decal. The others are to either side of the skull & crossbones, near the similar black decals.

Yes, you’re right, I see them now. I had to adjust the contrast on my screen, but I see that they are definitely there.

Maybe that's why Estes left them out, then. They couldn't see the white in the background anymore than I could at first. :o

[Rocket Doctor]

I would suggest contacting Estes customer service and speaking to Christine (1-800-525-7561 .

Ask Christine if she has the instruction sheet for the DRM you are looking for.

I have a instruction sheet for the Citation DRM I could copy and send, just supply a mailing address, cannot scan, too large.

[foose4string]

The decals were not bad to work with, but I took scigs advice and used several coats of liquid decal film prior to applying them. I think I'll be doing that with ALL Estes decals from now on, I'm sure it made a huge difference. The wrap was not as bad is I thought it would be. I got one decent size bubble underneath one of the skulls, but I poked it with a straight pin and brushed some micro set on it, and it disappeared.

Right or wrong, I applied the decals according to the new cover art. Next one I'll do the old way.
I took some liberty with the view not in plain sight. I used the kill decal on the other side of the fin with the large skull.

[LeeR]

[...]
I saw a rattle can of Testors' Candy Apple Red! Well, I picked it up and glancing at the instructions I saw it said to use a base coat of silver, gold or metallic copper..Well, I wanted it done right so I grabbed a can of silver..The to be extra safe I also grabbed a can of Testors pimer! So 3 step process to achieve a nice Candy Apple Red:

1: Testors Primer, sand minor areas..Did an AWESOME job filling the tube sirals and fin grain..Didn't have to sand much at all on the fins..

[...]



First, love the Candy Apple Red.

I didn't even realize Testors made primer, but I've used Testors and Model Masters a lot. They work fine over standard automotive primers. I've had really good luck with Rustoleum, and the large cans are definitely cheaper than Testors.

I have not checked Kmart lately, but they used to carry a store brand called Frsh 'n' Easy -- and it listed for about a buck. Sanded really easily. Kmart would put it on sale for 88 cents!

If I get a re-issue DRM, I may follow your lead on paint. .. Actually, I have the Excelsior decals, and several of the nose cones used for the DRM, so may just have to add it to the "hopelessly long" list of clones to build.

[Rocket Doctor]

First, love the Candy Apple Red.

I didn't even realize Testors made primer, but I've used Testors and Model Masters a lot. They work fine over standard automotive primers. I've had really good luck with Rustoleum, and the large cans are definitely cheaper than Testors.

I have not checked Kmart lately, but they used to carry a store brand called Frsh 'n' Easy -- and it listed for about a buck. Sanded really easily. Kmart would put it on sale for 88 cents!

If I get a re-issue DRM, I may follow your lead on paint. .. Actually, I have the Excelsior decals, and several of the nose cones used for the DRM, so may just have to add it to the "hopelessly long" list of clones to build.



Rustoleum usually is for metal, unless they have other types of paint. They usually have great colors, but, if it is for metal, it is usually "sticky" and takes forever to dry.

I have found Krylon to be the best, using the white primer, don't use the grey, it's too dark.

And Krylon has a good assortment of colors as well.

You may think you are getting a bargain by using the less expensive brands of paint, but, I find Krylon works best for me. It generally costs more and sometimes retailers run sales, but shop around.

Another rule of thumb is not to mix brands, you don't know how they will react with each other, and, when in doubt, test paint and make sure it is compatable.

Don't ruin a great build on paint.

[tbzep]

I use whatever brand of lacquer primer I can find. The stuff dries fast, sands easily within 20-30 minutes of application, and you can use any kind of color coat over it without waiting a month for complete curing. It used to be K-mart $0.88 Dutch Boy, but they changed over from lacquer to enamel primer. It's impossible to find cheap lacquer primer around here. It's over $3 a can locally. :mad:

I usually use Krylon for my color coats but I have real good success with WallyWorld gloss black over primer or Krylon/WallyWorld color. I have good success with WallyWorld gloss white with Krylon or Testors colors over the top, but the Krylon white is a little easier to get a good slick coat.

I used Plasticote's School Bus Yellow for a couple of projects last year and my son used it for a Goblin clone this year. The stuff stayed soft for a long time. Since I found out the hard way by masking the yellow after only a few days, my son waited about a month before masking for the black fin and only had some minor tape impressions....still just a tad soft after a month. :(

[Solomoriah]

Heck, I use cheap paint and get along fine. Wal-Mart ColorPlace or Dollar General Miracal. I can't recommend the Miracal primer highly enough... it does take a few coats, but I always get a glassy smooth rocket with Miracal. I think the ColorPlace and Miracal paints may be exactly the same thing, out of the same factories even.

I have had trouble with the Gloss White and Gloss Black ColorPlace paints going "orange peel" when I apply ColorPlace Clearcoat (you'd think it would be compatible...) but I use polyurethane varnish, thinned, from my airbrush, or I apply Future with a rag anymore to avoid this.

[barone]

Well, I started on my DRM this weekend. I was really surprised with the quality of the balsa. Nice tight grains. If it ever stops raining, I'll get some primer on it. Months without rain and weeks of record breaking highs and now rain when I'm trying to build.....

[LeeR]

Rustoleum usually is for metal, unless they have other types of paint. They usually have great colors, but, if it is for metal, it is usually "sticky" and takes forever to dry.

I have found Krylon to be the best, using the white primer, don't use the grey, it's too dark.

And Krylon has a good assortment of colors as well.

You may think you are getting a bargain by using the less expensive brands of paint, but, I find Krylon works best for me. It generally costs more and sometimes retailers run sales, but shop around.

Another rule of thumb is not to mix brands, you don't know how they will react with each other, and, when in doubt, test paint and make sure it is compatable.

Don't ruin a great build on paint.

The Rustoleum primer I used was fast drying, and sanded well. I am guessing it is lacquer-based, but need to check. It smelled awful, so I am guessing it is, and not enamel,which is not as offensive. I never had good luck with Krylon primer, always clogged sandpaper. Maybe the recent formulations are better -- my data is from 8-10 years ago.

I read the "Estes Secret Tips" on finishing, and was interested to read that Estes builds were mostly with Krylon. I have a love/hate relationship with the stuff. I bought several cans of Sun Gloss yellow recently, and both cans threw occasional globs of paint during spraying. I then tried a can of dark blue, bought at the same time, and it was fine. And this is not the first time I've had brand new cans just have horrible problems with uniform spraying.

[Solomoriah]

All I ever get with Krylon is runs and sags. Probably it's just me, but still, I have to go with what works for me, now, don't I?

[LeeR]

The secret, and it is REALLY HARD to do, is to go with super light initial coat. Follow-on coats should be light as well. I think they tend to stick, or be supported, by the first coats, and runs are far less likely.

It is so tempting to get everything covered immediately. :)

And I am the voice of experience -- had many runs occur while trying to get that one last little spot covered.

Try an experiment, and wait quite awhile between 3-4 very light coats, and see if this doesn't make a huge difference for you. The lay on a nice final coat. And let it sit a few days to a week before handling,other than if you need to peel up masking.

Old painting habits are hard to break, and we all want that beautiful top coat really quickly!

[Rocket Doctor]

Krylon paint has changed over the years.
They have gone through many cap styles and you can tell by that how "new" the paint really is.

I guess everyone has their own horror stories with paint. It woulnd not be a bright and cheery day if after many hours of hard work, your creation was ruined from the paint.

Getting back to Krylon far a minute, the newest cans say quick drying and no sagging.

I have used all kinds of paint from the 99 cent stuff ,th the higher price Krylon. I always use white primer, then a base coat of gloss white, then a top coat. You should always remember to leave ample time between coats and extra drying time if your masking an area off.

I don't know if there is a shelf life to spray paint, but, if the cans have sat around for years, I wouldn't ise it. As it has been poinyed out, they reformulate paint all the time.

Good luck with all your painting projects. And, for many segments of the country, we desperately need the rain.

[scigs30]

I switched from the Krylon grey primer to the white and did not have good results. I found the white did not fill well or sand well. I find that a few coats of aerogloss sealer sanding in between and one coat of grey primer works well. I sand that first coat of primer and then spray one coat of flat Krylon white paint. Then I follow this with my one top coat. All the Estes rockets that I have built have been at or below the wt. listed on the package.

[Rocket Doctor]

I switched from the Krylon grey primer to the white and did not have good results. I found the white did not fill well or sand well. I find that a few coats of aerogloss sealer sanding in between and one coat of grey primer works well. I sand that first coat of primer and then spray one coat of flat Krylon white paint. Then I follow this with my one top coat. All the Estes rockets that I have built have been at or below the wt. listed on the package.



Did you have any problems wiyh any top coats?

I think that the original dope sanding sealer would woek better if you can find it.

The bottopm line is whatever works for you without problems.

[scigs30]

No, I have had great results with Krylon paints.

[PaulK]

The Rustoleum primer I used was fast drying, and sanded well. I am guessing it is lacquer-based, but need to check. It smelled awful, so I am guessing it is, and not enamel,which is not as offensive. I never had good luck with Krylon primer, always clogged sandpaper. Maybe the recent formulations are better -- my data is from 8-10 years ago.The current Rustoleum grey primer labeled 'sandable' is lacquer based, lightning fast drying, and sands great.

[Rocket Doctor]

The current Rustoleum grey primer labeled 'sandable' is lacquer based, lightning fast drying, and sands great.



Thanks for the info, I contacted Krylon to see what they have to say.

[Green Dragon]

Heck, I use cheap paint and get along fine. Wal-Mart ColorPlace or Dollar General Miracal. I can't recommend the Miracal primer highly enough... it does take a few coats, but I always get a glassy smooth rocket with Miracal. I think the ColorPlace and Miracal paints may be exactly the same thing, out of the same factories even.

I have had trouble with the Gloss White and Gloss Black ColorPlace paints going "orange peel" when I apply ColorPlace Clearcoat (you'd think it would be compatible...) but I use polyurethane varnish, thinned, from my airbrush, or I apply Future with a rag anymore to avoid this.

I've used a lot of the Dollar Gneral Miracal paints with excellent results - only problem I have had at all ( multiple instances ) m was the balck paint when sprayed OVER thier color coats ( or othr brands ) has been very soft and lifted when the tape was pulled up ( ie: grabbed the edge of the tape and lifted up, not lifted after being taped OVER.... I;ve since gone to krylon or KMart Dutch Boy black for masked jobs.

As for Krylon hjere in NY - way too humid and great risk of it blushing terribly :( , ruined a few with blushing clear coat and the red on my Engage ,too :(

I like either cheap ( Miracal, Dutch Boy, Wal Mart ) or else Plasticoat or on larger birds - Auto paint through my trusty old Binks # 7 gun .

just my 2.7 cents, ymmv.

~ AL

[Rocket Doctor]

Whatever works for you.....go for it.

I contacted Krylon to see what they have to say.

Anyone building DRM, post some photos.

[tbzep]

I've used some really old Testor's and Krylon paints with excellent results. Most recently, I used the same Krylon high heat orange paint that I did my 1/2 scale Aerobee with on my new Semroc Aerobee. The 1/2 scale Aerobee was built in 1996....11 years ago. I used some 25 year old Artillary Olive on my son's smart bomb rocket last summer (Estes kit....forgot the name). If the stuff sprays well, I'll test it on something first, then let'er rip. :D

[Mach1]

My paint system is a mix. I use Rustoleum Sandable auto primer first. I use it because it sands well, much better than Krylon "sandable" primer. Next, I paint with regular Krylon paint.

I use Krylon paint for several reasons. First, it dries fast. Second, the overspray does not mess up the garage floor. You can sweep and mop it up.

After applying decals, I finish with Rustoleum Crystal clear gloss. No paticular for using it, I just like it. I usually apply the clear pretty heavy, it gives a nice look. I have found that the clear is necessary to make the Krylon paint look good.

I have been finishing rockets this way for lots of years. I was once approached at a launch, where a fellow was admiring the finish on my 4" Upscale Der Red Max. He accused me of having the rocket professionally painted at a body shop. He was shocked to find out that I had painted it with spray-bombs.

This paint system works for me, I don't intend to change it. That's my .02 cents.

[LeeR]

I've used some really old Testor's and Krylon paints with excellent results. Most recently, I used the same Krylon high heat orange paint that I did my 1/2 scale Aerobee with on my new Semroc Aerobee. The 1/2 scale Aerobee was built in 1996....11 years ago. I used some 25 year old Artillary Olive on my son's smart bomb rocket last summer (Estes kit....forgot the name). If the stuff sprays well, I'll test it on something first, then let'er rip. :D

I kind of have the same philosophy -- "If it spray, it OK" (apologies to the late Johnny Cochran ...)

:p

I write the date of purchase on bottoms of cans with a Sharpie, and I also rotate them upside down and back every few months to keep them somewhat stirred. With all the formulation changes, if I find a color I like, I'll buy 4-5 cans or more to last me awhile.