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Solomoriah
05-21-2007, 09:42 AM
Back in the day, Centuri sold wadding made of crepe paper. I've since discovered that pretty much all ordinary party crepe paper is flame retardant, just as the Estes toilet paper wadding is. So I have to ask... is there any reason I can't just cut off square pieces of crepe paper from one of those $0.48 rolls that Wal-Mart sells, and use that instead of the overpriced Estes wadding?

BTW... I am aware of "dog barf" wadding. I'm just curious if there is any reason we don't use crepe paper anymore.

Doug Sams
05-21-2007, 12:30 PM
... is there any reason I can't just cut off square pieces of crepe paper from one of those $0.48 rolls that Wal-Mart sells, and use that instead of the overpriced Estes wadding?Sol,

It's all about stiffness. The Estes wadding is the softest and conforms the best to whatever it's in thus sealing things well and providing a better barrier. Next best is the Quest wadding, parade float paper, also flame retardent, and rightly so. But it's stiffer than the Estes wadding. And crepe paper is even stiffer. My take is that, from personal experience, flames and hot gases tend to work their way around the stiffer papers and get to the chute.

So, I tend to mix them together. With crepe, I use 2-4 sheets of it with 1-2 sheets of Estes. That economizes on the Estes wadding while still providing good protection for the recovery system. For a BT-50 airframe, I'll put two squares of crepe in, then one of Estes, then the shock cord followed by the chute.

Doug

CPMcGraw
05-21-2007, 07:32 PM
Back in the day, Centuri sold wadding made of crepe paper. I've since discovered that pretty much all ordinary party crepe paper is flame retardant, just as the Estes toilet paper wadding is. So I have to ask... is there any reason I can't just cut off square pieces of crepe paper from one of those $0.48 rolls that Wal-Mart sells, and use that instead of the overpriced Estes wadding?

BTW... I am aware of "dog barf" wadding. I'm just curious if there is any reason we don't use crepe paper anymore.

With a quote from Doug Sams: ...It's all about stiffness...

And since you can get ten years worth of barf from Lowes for about $7 a bundle, why waste that perfectly good streamer material for something that gets wasted each flight? :D

Doug Sams
05-21-2007, 09:15 PM
And since you can get ten years worth of barf from Lowes for about $7 a bundle, why waste that perfectly good streamer material for something that gets wasted each flight? :DHi, Craig,

I wanted to say something, but since Sol mentioned dog barf, I let it go.

But, now that you brought it up :) I do use dog barf, usually in birds ~1.3" diameter and larger. My experience with it is that it appears to not block the flames and hot gasses well when used by itself; it needs to be used along with some wadding or a chute protector to work well.

I will often make a piston by placing a ball of barf in a sheet of wadding and putting that in first, then more wadding, shock cord, etc.

For HPR, dog barf with just a chute protector works well. For MR birds ~2" and under - whether it's dog barf, Quest wadding or crepe paper - I tend to get the best results when using a little Estes wadding in the mix

Doug
Hoping I'm not repeating myself...

CPMcGraw
05-21-2007, 09:33 PM
Hi, Craig,

I wanted to say something, but since Sol mentioned dog barf, I let it go.

But, now that you brought it up :) I do use dog barf, usually in birds ~1.3" diameter and larger. My experience with it is that it appears to not block the flames and hot gasses well when used by itself; it needs to be used along with some wadding or a chute protector to work well.

I will often make a piston by placing a ball of barf in a sheet of wadding and putting that in first, then more wadding, shock cord, etc.

For HPR, dog barf with just a chute protector works well. For MR birds ~2" and under - whether it's dog barf, Quest wadding or crepe paper - I tend to get the best results when using a little Estes wadding in the mix

Doug
Hoping I'm not repeating myself...

Doug,

I appreciate your observations, and don't mind any "repeats" of information. I've noticed from time-to-time an occasional hole in a parachute that I attributed to just not having enough barf shoved into the tube. Most of the time the shredded newsprint works well; I think it fills in the gaps better than does the sheet style. But there are those odd moments when the parachute comes back with damage that was not there pre-flight.

The downside to the ShredCel wadding is packing it into the less-than-1" tubes, like ST-7 and BT-20. I tend to pack it down a bit tighter than I should, resulting in the occasional blockage near the end of the tube, even to the point of blowing out the motor as often as it blows out the laundry.

Your "piston" idea is similar to Bit Eimer's Teflon pompom, just not as permanent. I may have to go re-read his construction sequence on the BARCLONE site and try it out on a few.

Solomoriah
05-22-2007, 12:02 AM
Probably half of my fleet is BT-20, making dog barf problematic. That was why I had high hopes for using crepe; and actually, I probably will anyway, combined with a few sheets of Estes wadding.

Still too expensive, dang it.

tbzep
05-22-2007, 09:37 AM
Back in the day, Centuri sold wadding made of crepe paper. I've since discovered that pretty much all ordinary party crepe paper is flame retardant, just as the Estes toilet paper wadding is. So I have to ask... is there any reason I can't just cut off square pieces of crepe paper from one of those $0.48 rolls that Wal-Mart sells, and use that instead of the overpriced Estes wadding?

BTW... I am aware of "dog barf" wadding. I'm just curious if there is any reason we don't use crepe paper anymore.

Why cut when you can buy it in squares? Crepe paper squares are available in many craft stores. That's what Quest sells as wadding now. It's the stuff that people stuff into chicken wire to build parade floats. Pick your favorite wadding color and run with it. :)

Personally, I like the Estes stuff best for small rockets for its soft form fitting properties mentioned in previous posts. I don't like the way they pack individual squares in the Wally World motor packs. I like it still connected like toilet paper rolls. I used dog barf stuff back when I was still doing HPR stuff, but I don't like it at all on little rockets.

Solomoriah
05-22-2007, 09:58 AM
Estes wadding is around $0.0625 per sheet, not counting sales tax or 40% off coupon, at Hobby Lobby. Quest wadding is around $0.03 per sheet online, not counting any shipping/handling. But a huge roll of crepe paper is $0.48 at Wal-Mart. I'm really cheap...

... but I never saw individual sheets of crepe paper. I'll have to look for it. Does Hobby Lobby carry such?

Shreadvector
05-22-2007, 10:38 AM
You seem to be mixing/confusing the terms "crepe paper" and "tissue paper". They are different materials (similar, but different like a Chihuahua and a Golden Retriever). Quest uses a flame resistant/treated tissue, not crepe paper.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-tissue-paper.htm

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-crepe-paper.htm




Why cut when you can buy it in squares? Crepe paper squares are available in many craft stores. That's what Quest sells as wadding now. It's the stuff that people stuff into chicken wire to build parade floats. Pick your favorite wadding color and run with it. :)

Personally, I like the Estes stuff best for small rockets for its soft form fitting properties mentioned in previous posts. I don't like the way they pack individual squares in the Wally World motor packs. I like it still connected like toilet paper rolls. I used dog barf stuff back when I was still doing HPR stuff, but I don't like it at all on little rockets.

Shreadvector
05-22-2007, 10:42 AM
Since I don;t have a HL nearby (at least 1000 miles), I can only tell you that Party Supply stores sell crepe paper in long packages which contain big sheets folded over.

First hit on Google shows all 3 types I see at the local mega-party stores.

http://www.pacon.com/paper_products/tissue_crepe/crepe_deco-puffs.php

Estes wadding is around $0.0625 per sheet, not counting sales tax or 40% off coupon, at Hobby Lobby. Quest wadding is around $0.03 per sheet online, not counting any shipping/handling. But a huge roll of crepe paper is $0.48 at Wal-Mart. I'm really cheap...

... but I never saw individual sheets of crepe paper. I'll have to look for it. Does Hobby Lobby carry such?

Solomoriah
05-22-2007, 03:48 PM
First hit on Google shows all 3 types I see at the local mega-party stores.

http://www.pacon.com/paper_products/tissue_crepe/crepe_deco-puffs.php

Hmm... on that site:

Kolorfast® DecoPuffs™
Brightly colored, flame retardant, time saving pre-cut tissue squares...

Package quantity 300 sheets of 5.5"x5.5" squares. Another handy Google search brings up:

http://teachersemporiumcatalog.com/retail/content/indivProd.asp?mAbb=PAC&iid=PAC58018&mid=166

... where they are selling this stuff for $3.89 per package. That's about $0.013 per sheet!

Gotta find some of this stuff.

stefanj
05-22-2007, 11:53 PM
Suggestion:

If this stuff is Made In China, test the flame-retardency of this stuff before you use it.

(Outside, over pavement, water bucket on hand, yadda-yadda.)

No, I don't have any specific information to base my suspicions on. I'm just suggesting caution.

Solomoriah
05-23-2007, 08:01 AM
Everything is Made In China. :D I do plan to test it.

tbzep
05-23-2007, 11:13 AM
You seem to be mixing/confusing the terms "crepe paper" and "tissue paper". They are different materials (similar, but different like a Chihuahua and a Golden Retriever). Quest uses a flame resistant/treated tissue, not crepe paper.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-tissue-paper.htm

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-crepe-paper.htm

Actually, I'm not confused....as per your links, "and crepe paper is also a variety of tissue paper". The only difference is the wrinkles (creped). Some of the squares that you can buy at party and hobby stores are wrinkled/creped, so you can actually buy squares of crepe paper. The name has become a generic word referring to both the streamer and both smooth and creped square materials used for decorations much like Kleenex or Vaselene have become generic terms in many parts of the country for facial tissue and petroleum jelly.

You should spend more time flying rockets instead of trying to correct every tiny little detail which adds absolutely nothing in this conversation except to belittle us and put yourself on a pedestal. The only things that are important here is that he can purchase any variety of the stuff cheap in bulk and it is all treated for flame resistance because of its intended purpose for decorations. :mad:

Shreadvector
05-23-2007, 12:18 PM
You completely misinterpreted my message and wentr for the most negative possible meaning, which says to me that you read everything looking to start a fight. If that is the case, simply stop reading my messages.

Quest wadding is "tissue paper" and has not been 'creped' or wrinkled/accordian folded. You said "Why cut when you can buy it in squares? Crepe paper squares are available in many craft stores. That's what Quest sells as wadding now. It's the stuff that people stuff into chicken wire to build parade floats. Pick your favorite wadding color and run with it." and all I did was post links to additional information on tissue and crepe paper.

I said:
You seem to be mixing/confusing the terms "crepe paper" and "tissue paper". They are different materials (similar, but different like a Chihuahua and a Golden Retriever). Quest uses a flame resistant/treated tissue, not crepe paper.

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-tissue-paper.htm

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-crepe-paper.htm

and what I said is correct. crepe paper is a wrinkled form of tissue paper and Quest sells tissue paper wadding, not crepe paper wadding.

There is nothing to argue about. It is a simple fact.

Please stop personally attacking me for providing factual information.

Actually, I'm not confused....as per your links, "and crepe paper is also a variety of tissue paper". The only difference is the wrinkles (creped). Some of the squares that you can buy at party and hobby stores are wrinkled/creped, so you can actually buy squares of crepe paper. The name has become a generic word referring to both the streamer and both smooth and creped square materials used for decorations much like Kleenex or Vaselene have become generic terms in many parts of the country for facial tissue and petroleum jelly.

You should spend more time flying rockets instead of trying to correct every tiny little detail which adds absolutely nothing in this conversation except to belittle us and put yourself on a pedestal. The only things that are important here is that he can purchase any variety of the stuff cheap in bulk and it is all treated for flame resistance because of its intended purpose for decorations. :mad:

tbzep
05-23-2007, 03:32 PM
I've seen you get your kicks correcting folks over nitpicky things for a long time over on TRF. People get tired of it, especially when you go for minutia like this.

The only difference in the two papers is wrinkles, and the "crepe" name has long since become a generic name for all the colored tissue type papers used for decorations, whether in streamers, squares, or sheets.

BTW, that wasn't a personal attack. You yourself said it wasn't worth arguing about, therefore there was no reason for you to have thrown in your unwanted two cents worth of nitpicky crap.

Ltvscout
05-23-2007, 04:12 PM
Ok everyone, let's play nice. I'm not going to go into over-moderation mode like another popular rocketry forum. I expect everyone to act civilized and just click the next key instead of replying. I saw nothing overtly outrageous in anyone's post so it's not worth deleting.

If I saw something like hate speech, swearing, things like that, that would warrant deletion of the post.

Shreadvector
05-23-2007, 04:17 PM
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-tissue-paper.htm

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-crepe-paper.htm

Can anyone else read these clearly? Is there another conflicting definition or are people just making up their own terminology, like Moe on the Simpsons deciding to call a carport a "car hole"?

Shreadvector
05-23-2007, 04:22 PM
Obviously you do not frequent TRF much. Or were you banned from there for posting responses like these intended to start arguments?

Here is a tip: When someone posts information accompanied by a link to the source of the facts, it is not polite to attack them for providing information. If the information is provided to clarify the use of terminology, do not take it as a personal insult to you. Simply say something like "thanks, I did not know that" or just don't say anything at all.

Try to have a nice day. :D

I've seen you get your kicks correcting folks over nitpicky things for a long time over on TRF. People get tired of it, especially when you go for minutia like this.

The only difference in the two papers is wrinkles, and the "crepe" name has long since become a generic name for all the colored tissue type papers used for decorations, whether in streamers, squares, or sheets.

BTW, that wasn't a personal attack. You yourself said it wasn't worth arguing about, therefore there was no reason for you to have thrown in your unwanted two cents worth of nitpicky crap.

ghrocketman
05-23-2007, 04:24 PM
I'm surprised Shreadvector did not throw in his famous last words of "Did you call the manufacturer and ask" as to whether or not it is crepe or tissue paper.
Quips such as those he usually posts on that other hideously over-moderated forum are usually about as useful as typical smart-alecky cracks from 12 year old children.

Shreadvector
05-23-2007, 04:32 PM
OK, so I see this has degenrated into an attack thread on me and the Rocketry Forum.

Were you also banned from TRF?

When someone posts a question asking about a product availability (like "Are Estes B6-0 motors discontinued?") why is it qrong to ask them if they called the manufacturer and asked them? That is the most logical thing to do. Asking a web based forum of sonsumers will yeild many responses, many of which are just guesses. If you want facts about a product being discontinued or not, call or e-mail the manufacturer.

I'm sorry that advice upsets you.

I'm surprised Shreadvector did not throw in his famous last words of "Did you call the manufacturer and ask" as to whether or not it is crepe or tissue paper.
Quips such as those he usually posts on that other hideously over-moderated forum are usually about as useful as typical smart-alecky cracks from 12 year old children.

ghrocketman
05-23-2007, 04:42 PM
Not a personal attack in any way, just stating the "Facts" just like you.
Nope, never banned from nor joined TRF.
Reason for never joining TRF is incessant mamby-pamby UN-NEEDED over-moderation.
I do however frequent those forums for info and often see your responses that many other than myself would consider condescending and less than useful.
I think one would be hard pressed to find any of the "regulars" on YORF taking any sort of "attitude" toward any questions they respond to.

Shreadvector
05-23-2007, 04:50 PM
If you don't find my responses useful, just ignore me.

The only possible reason for your posts here are to attack me and to try to silence me.

That is irrational.

If you don't want to read my words, just ignore them. If you post lies/exaggerations/twisted-"facts" about me I will respond and state that they are lies/exaggerations/twisted-"facts".

I've had dozens and dozens of people IM me to tell me how they appreciated the information I've provided. I've also gotten messages from folks who read these type of attack messages who wanted to let me know that they agreed with me and that the attackers were wrong and might possibly be in need of some psychological help.

Not a personal attack in any way, just stating the "Facts" just like you.
Nope, never banned from nor joined TRF.
Reason for never joining TRF is incessant mamby-pamby UN-NEEDED over-moderation.
I do however frequent those forums for info and often see your responses that many other than myself would consider condescending and less than useful.
I think one would be hard pressed to find any of the "regulars" on YORF taking any sort of "attitude" toward any questions they respond to.

Solomoriah
05-23-2007, 05:05 PM
Sheesh, ask a simple question...

... too bad the forum isn't flame retardant.

DaveR
05-23-2007, 05:06 PM
I guess this is why it's called "free for all" :(

A Fish Named Wallyum
05-23-2007, 05:26 PM
Sheesh, ask a simple question...

... too bad the forum isn't flame retardant.

:D :D :D

Ltvscout
05-23-2007, 06:23 PM
I guess this is why it's called "free for all" :(
Yup. :rolleyes:

Daniel Runyon
05-23-2007, 06:29 PM
This thread has gone on way too long without a sound bite (http://www.jokes.thefunnybone.com/waves/blowwhis.wav)!

Here's the dude (http://www.jokes.thefunnybone.com/waves/willie.wav) who keeps applying for a mod postition over at TRF... I think he posts at RMR a lot.

tbzep
05-24-2007, 09:00 AM
Were you also banned from TRF?



Why don't you call or PM the TRF folks and find out? :D

Eagle3
05-24-2007, 09:22 AM
Thanks Daniel. *LOL*

Just a little more clarification on what Scott and others have already mentioned;

This particular area of the forum is called "FreeForAll" and as the name suggest you can talk about anything here whether it be "Where does Terri Garr get her Allis Chalmers orange paint" to "which is more effect for wiping your butt, tissue or crepe paper?".

Posts WILL NOT BE DELETED IN THIS FORUM unless it's spam, porn, or a special case and mods decide what is a special case. In case you missed that,
POSTS WILL NOT BE DELETED IN THIS FORUM

With that in mind, think before you post. If you post something that you think stands a chance of receiving negative replies and you don't want to deal with the repercussions then don't post it! If you unsuspectingly receive contradiction to your point of view defend yourself, concede, or move on.

Personal attacks will be dealt with by the mods in the form of warnings in PM and is totally subjective. Habitual offenders will be banned.

If these guidelines are unappealing to you, there is a link at the bottom of this page for vBulletin. nuff said.

ghrocketman
05-24-2007, 10:08 AM
tbzep, you are a RIOT !!!!!!

tbzep
05-24-2007, 10:34 AM
tbzep, you are a RIOT !!!!!!


:D Seemed like the appropriate response to me. ;)


All of you folks have a great summer. I'm shutting down the work computer and starting my vacation as soon as the secretary comes around with my paycheck. Everyone fly some rockets, take some pics, and hopefully I'll have lots of YORF posts to catch up on when I finally get back online.

Later!