Payload Duration Competition

[Ironnerd]

Is it me, or are the rules for P40 "Payload Duration Competition" a little goofy.

I guess it's "okay" to have light-weight objects freefalling from the sky, but to be honest it's just an altitude event in disguise. A shuttlecock (badminton birdie) will always fall at a given rate, so the longest duration is really just the highest flight. In a normal "Duration" event, however, different parachute materials, streamer folds, shock cord mount positions, etc... have a real effect upon the duration of the flight. Sure, altitude is important, but it's not everything. With P40, more altitude is really the only way to get a longer duration. It's basically the "Timed Altitude" Stine mentions in the Handbook of Model Rocketry with the weighted ribbon.

The title also precludes a duration event using a standard NAR payload.

I guess it's not a bad event, but it could use a more descriptive title.

[Shreadvector]

Are we talking about an FAI event? If so, provide a link to the event rules.

[Ironnerd]

It is a provisional event in the "Pink Book"

[LINK (http://www.nar.org/pinkbook/P40_PAYD.html)]

Sorry - I should have put that in the original post.

[fulldec]

Oh, I don't know. I have never flown the event but from reading the rules it seems a strategy for higher powered events is go with a dethermalizer mechanism, a dual deploy capability or perhaps better, radio control. First phase of the flight is recovered with a parachute for long duration. Shortly before touch down, deploy the payload so that the timers can see it, to avoid disqualification.

It could be an interesting event, though I'm not sure that is how it was originally envisioned.

[Ironnerd]

DUDE! I totally missed that! You are spot on.

I think the rule may be open to a little abuse...

[Ironnerd]

<rant>
Too late to try to get it changed for this cycle. The NAR web site states that any ballots must be received by 28 Jun, even though the actual form you fill out clearly says September 1st. Seems to me the whole RCP thing should get at least some space in "Sport Rocketry", since it goes out to all the members.

I often wonder about the omitted events.

Why no Multi-Stage altitude? The Sporting Code has every other altitude event (except maybe Glider altitude or Saucer Altitude), why not multi-stage? I guess it could be a sub-class, but how do you get points in that? Or a record?


Why no "Payload Duration", with an actual NAR payload? We do the same thing with Eggs, why not a payload?It's not like I think the NAR should have Super-Roc Dual Egg Loft Spot Landing as an event, it just seems to me as though the two non-events mentioned above would be logical fits for the existing sporting code.
Looking at the provisional events, I see some serious niche stuff - other than maybe Pee-wee payload Alt (because it requires a new NAR-Standard payload for the tiny 1/8A motors) and Classic Model (which will help preserve our rocket-nerd heritage).
</rant>

[kevinj]

<rant>

Why no Multi-Stage altitude? The Sporting Code has every other altitude event (except maybe Glider altitude or Saucer Altitude), why not multi-stage? I guess it could be a sub-class, but how do you get points in that? Or a record?



Because you can already fly multi staged models in altitude competition.

kj

[Bill]

<rant>
Too late to try to get it changed for this cycle. The NAR web site states that any ballots must be received by 28 Jun, even though the actual form you fill out clearly says September 1st. Seems to me the whole RCP thing should get at least some space in "Sport Rocketry", since it goes out to all the members.

Not too late. The RCP has two phases. You can submit proposals to change the rules by September 1. The submitted proposals are voted on the next year, hence the ballot deadline date.



Why no "Payload Duration", with an actual NAR payload? We do the same thing with Eggs, why not a payload?It's not like I think the NAR should have Super-Roc Dual Egg Loft Spot Landing as an event, it just seems to me as though the two non-events mentioned above would be logical fits for the existing sporting code.


Since egglofting is a simulation of manned spaceflight, maybe it is time for Eggloft Boost Glider Duration. For a real blast, how about Eggloft Helicopter Duration?


Bill

[Ironnerd]

Not too late. The RCP has two phases. You can submit proposals to change the rules by September 1. The submitted proposals are voted on the next year, hence the ballot deadline date.
I guess I'll ask for some clarification on the event then.

Since egglofting is a simulation of manned spaceflight, maybe it is time for Eggloft Boost Glider Duration. For a real blast, how about Eggloft Helicopter Duration?


Bill
Actually, BOTH of those events would be just as viable as Super-roc XL Altitude and Duration - and would be a LOT of fun. Maybe I'll put those in as well :rolleyes:

[Ironnerd]

Because you can already fly multi staged models in altitude competition.

kj

Yes, and I can fly a CLUSTER model in any altitude event as well, and CLUSTER is its own event. By your logic, Cluster Altitude should be removed as an event.

What I am wondering is why, if there is an event stipulating that all entries must use a cluster of multiple motors, why not have an event stipulating that all entries must use multiple stages? Not an option to fly with multiple stages; a REQUIREMENT.
Since there is no distinct event, we don't have any records for multi-stage altitude. The result being, we have a pretty good idea of how high we can go on one motor, but we don't really know how high we can go on 2 motors that have the same impulse as that single motor. It pretty unlikely that you'll be able to reach the same altitude on a staged rocket as you can with a single-stage rocket on the same total impulse.

Of course such an event would have to have different Weighting Factors.

[kevinj]

Yes, and I can fly a CLUSTER model in any altitude event as well, and CLUSTER is its own event. By your logic, Cluster Altitude should be removed as an event.

You have an incorrect assumption. You asked why there wasn't a separate event, and I answered that.

Cluster altitude has it's reason for being right there in the rules:
"23.2 Purpose
The purpose of this event is to foster the understanding and execution of a fundamental model rocket skill: clustering. The purpose of the competition is to achieve the highest altitude. "

I actually think you are on to something with creating a new event that is only open to staged models. How would you set the classes? Total impulse (B Multi-Stage Altitude would be any motors up to B impulse level like 2 A motors) or like cluster today (B MSA would be 2 B motors)?


What I am wondering is why, if there is an event stipulating that all entries must use a cluster of multiple motors, why not have an event stipulating that all entries must use multiple stages? Not an option to fly with multiple stages; a REQUIREMENT.


Back in the day we saw lots of different multiple stage altitude models. Either motors got better so you could go higher in altitude with single motors, or the suitable booster motors aren't around any more to support it in the power classes most flown. Or the folks who were part of the pink book rewrite in the 80's didn't think it was important. But my money is on folks that were already flying altitude back thin didn't see the need for it.

Depending on how you work out the rules, I think it would be a good addition. I definitely think that when you submit your rules proposal you should include a sentence almost word for word like the first line of 23.2.

kj

[Ironnerd]

Hmmm... I should have put that in the first line...

Anyway, here is what I submitted.

[georgegassaway]

Since egglofting is a simulation of manned spaceflight, maybe it is time for Eggloft Boost Glider Duration.

Hey, it already exists. The Eggloft Duration event is.... eggloft duration. There is no recovery method specified. So a person can use glide recovery, or copter recovery if they want.

NARAM in 1996, and again in 2003, had F Dual Eggloft Duration.

I used my "Big Bird 3" model, a 6 foot span R/C Rocket Glider built just for this event, to carry two eggs. It won Team division both times.

As for most of the provisional events, too many of them are half-baked bad ideas. Once upon a time there was a person in charge to be a sanity check to make sure the events made sense and had rules that had the bugs ironed out. But that's no longer the case, looks like any half-baked bad idea can become a provisional event now.

- George Gassaway

[Ironnerd]

Cool! I like the cut of your jib! You could do the same with "Payload Altitude" and just fly around a while, then drop the payload when the glider is about a meter above the ground. Pretty easy to do with R/C.

Yes - we (NAR) need a group of ueber-nerds to check out the provisional events.

I thought "Pee-Wee Payload Altitude" is actually a good idea, due to the advent of the Mini-Maxx motors - they just can't lift a normal sized NAR payload.

I think "Payload Duration" needs some attention. But then, that may be why we have "Provisional" eents in the first place. If feedback is not great, then it would (I hope) be dropped or revised.

[kevinj]

We flew payload duration when it first hit the PB, whiffle ball variety. We ended up not doing anything bizarre with it and most everyone flew it with models that had an enlarged payload bay they dropped the ball out at ejection.

Interesting, but not something I'd want to add as a full on event.

kj

[Ironnerd]

I can see it being a "fun" event, but I just can't picture it being flown at NARAM.