To Astron or not to Astron...

[harsas]

I have a question that I have been discussing with a friend and neither of us have the answer. The first Orbital Transport decals have Astron Aerospace Lines. At some point it changed to Estes Aerospace lines. Does anyone know what year that was in? I am trying to date an old rocket and all I can find is the change in names in the catalog. 1975 appears to be the frist year that there was no Astron in the catalog, but then the OT never did have the name Astron attached to it in the catalog. If anyone has a definitive answer, I would be appreciative. No money, just my undying gratitude.

[Rex R]

Estes changed the catalog picture of the OT in 1975, I would wager that is the switch over point. though I can't make out what it says the '74 picture has the right number of letters for Astron.
rex

[ghrocketman]

I know the first two that I built were Green Face-Card, and Green Hang-Tag and the decals read "Astron". The third I built was green face-card but had I think a Black Hang-Tag. That one had the "Estes" decals. I however have no idea of the time frame.

[Neal Miller]

I have a question that I have been discussing with a friend and neither of us have the answer. The first Orbital Transport decals have Astron Aerospace Lines. At some point it changed to Estes Aerospace lines. Does anyone know what year that was in? I am trying to date an old rocket and all I can find is the change in names in the catalog. 1975 appears to be the frist year that there was no Astron in the catalog, but then the OT never did have the name Astron attached to it in the catalog. If anyone has a definitive answer, I would be appreciative. No money, just my undying gratitude.

Hi H, I have been wondering this myself, I have both sets of decals and only 1 OT kit,
It came in a Green Hang Tag/ Green Card era Kit. the Astron Decals are from a Kit I bought back in the 1970's ? The Newer Green Carded Kit was bought in the 1980's from Carl's Clear
Track Hobbies in Fort Myers . So if we can figure out the Dating of the Green Labels,
we can get close. Iam going to check into this closer.

[harsas]

Thanks for the info. It is driving me crazy because I have an old one I built many years ago but cannot remember exactly when. I know it was early on, pretty sure in the 70's but it has the Estes decals not Astron. So if I can figure out the dates I can get a better idea of when I built it.

Carl's Clear Track Hobbies? Must have been before 76 when I moved down here...

[Ltvscout]

Hi H, I have been wondering this myself, I have both sets of decals and only 1 OT kit,
It came in a Green Hang Tag/ Green Card era Kit. the Astron Decals are from a Kit I bought back in the 1970's ? The Newer Green Carded Kit was bought in the 1980's from Carl's Clear
Track Hobbies in Fort Myers . So if we can figure out the Dating of the Green Labels,
we can get close. Iam going to check into this closer.
I never thought of looking at the hobby shops in Fort Myers when I'm down there for old gems. I'm usually too busy on the beach. :D

I imagine all the mom & pop shops are gone and/or the ones left have been picked clean by you and Harold. ;)

[kurtschachner]

Yeah, back in the day wherever I went, either for pleasure or business I immediately checked out the phone book for hobby shops and visited every one I could. I remember just randomly exiting the freeway in various states when a medium sized town came up, just to find the shops. I never really found anything too exciting.

I never thought of looking at the hobby shops in Fort Myers when I'm down there for old gems. I'm usually too busy on the beach. :D

[Neal Miller]

Yeah, back in the day wherever I went, either for pleasure or business I immediately checked out the phone book for hobby shops and visited every one I could. I remember just randomly exiting the freeway in various states when a medium sized town came up, just to find the shops. I never really found anything too exciting.

I Moved to South West Florida in 1980, when I got here there was two Hobby Shops in Naples,
and 5 in the Fort Myers / Cape Coral Area. All those old shops are gone.
I moved to the East Coast in 1988, there were 8 shops in the Fort Lauderdale Area.
now there are 2, and they are no long owned by the original owners.

As for the OT Decals, I looked on the Gerry Fortin Web Site, and narrowed the time frame down to 1975-1981, and the Green Tag/ Header Card, More than likely, Estes change the
Decals, but used the last of the Astron Aerospace Lines Decals until they were gone.
I am going to dig out the kit I have ( with Estes Aerospace Decals) and see if I can find anything that might be dated in the kit.

[Neal Miller]

I never thought of looking at the hobby shops in Fort Myers when I'm down there for old gems. I'm usually too busy on the beach. :D

I imagine all the mom & pop shops are gone and/or the ones left have been picked clean by you and Harold. ;)

A real crying shame was when one hobby shop in Cape Coral was Closed by the IRS.
this happened in 1986, this shop had dozens of Centuri and Estes Kits Motors and
Hundreds of parts. I went to this shop one Saturday and there was a sign that said,
Something like: Closed by Order of the U.S. Department of the Treasury.
Tax Auction Delpredo Mall this Saturday. As I remember this Mall was also in Tax trouble.
I went over to the mall and they had all of the items from the hobby shop and who know
what other stores on pallets with lot numbers on them. I looked at every pallet but no
rocketry items. A few Months later the guys who owned the Hobby Shop resurfaced in a
new store, I hoped they still had the rocketry items but no such luck. I asked them
what happened to the rockets. and was told that the IRS took them and that any thing that
the IRS did not sell was sent to the dump. I never saw these items for sale any where
in Florida and I do mean any where.

[harsas]

I never thought of looking at the hobby shops in Fort Myers when I'm down there for old gems. I'm usually too busy on the beach. :D

I imagine all the mom & pop shops are gone and/or the ones left have been picked clean by you and Harold. ;)


What Neal says is true. I have been here since 76 and don't remember more than 3 shops in Ft. Myers / Cape Coral area. I don't remember the auction because I would have camped out. ANyway, the very last shop in the Cape that closed was A&J models which was taken out by Hurricane Charlie. It was a little tiny one man shop that almost no one knew about (and I was stingy with the info). He has lots of reallyold Estes, Custom and Aerotech stuff. Little by little I snatched it up and by the time the hurricane hit there was not much left of any worth. His shop was actually in the very first office building I had when I was building homes. After the storm he tried reopening in the damaged building but one day I went there and he was gone and the shop was cleaned out. I never knew exactly what happened until one day I responded to a Craigs list ad up in Port Charlotte. The guy was advertising a box full of kits. I knew instantly from the price stickers that they came from the old man's shop. Turns out this was his nephew and he inherited the inventory after the old man died. It was kind of sad but it did put an end to my wondering.

[Neal Miller]

Harold, the last two hobby shops that have been in operation here in the Fort Lauderdale area
have changed hands, Warrick Hobbies ( opened in 1976) is now corporate owned, the new name is Monster Hobbies. RC hobbies ( opened in 1985) is now Tri County Hobbies.
another hobby shop Discount Train, closed its doors after over 30 years.

Harold I used to supply maintenance for Mobil and Hess Oil, I would travel the State North to South Coast to Coast. I would buy all that funds allowed . Now it's good to see that some of the stores are still there let alone that they have anything left.

[harsas]

Harold, the last two hobby shops that have been in operation here in the Fort Lauderdale area
have changed hands, Warrick Hobbies ( opened in 1976) is now corporate owned, the new name is Monster Hobbies. RC hobbies ( opened in 1985) is now Tri County Hobbies.
another hobby shop Discount Train, closed its doors after over 30 years.

Harold I used to supply maintenance for Mobil and Hess Oil, I would travel the State North to South Coast to Coast. I would buy all that funds allowed . Now it's good to see that some of the stores are still there let alone that they have anything left.

WAS still there. Like I said it closed after Charlie (05?). There is only one LHS in Ft. Myers now (Paradise Hobbies) and they are mostly RC. They do have a small rocketry space but it only has recent Estes kits. They do offer a nice selection of motors for those that are willing to pay retail for motors. But their special orders are reliable so I do use them for some things.

Sadly, it seems the days for discovery are gone, at lest here.

[Neal Miller]

Well Harold, Here We go: According to Gerry Fortin's Web Site, the Kit I have (Pic #1) Is
a Green Skill Level Hang Tag Version II, Because it has the Added wording on the front and back of the hang tag. Front; Recommended for ages 10 to adult, Back : A Rewarding Hobby
for Ages 10 to Adult. this added wording dates this kit to 1975-1977,
inside of the kit was a piece of paper with the Model Rocketry Safety Code on one side and a illustration of the Maxi Alpha at lift-off. being that the Maxi Alpha was not offered for sale
before 1977 this would mean that this kit was produced in 1977 . in 1978 Estes added.
the French / Canada labeling to the Header Card so this kit was made before 1978.
This kit was supplied with the ESTES AEROSPACE LINES Decal set.
So I would Say that after 1977 The Decals Read ESTES. According to GHRocketman,
he had Kits with Green Header Cards Supplied with ASTRON AEROSPACE Decals,
his kits must of have been from 1974-1976 era. I would like to know if GHRocketman's kits
had the Version I or II Green Hang Tags.

Pic # 1: ORBITAL TRANSPORT KIT with GREEN Skill Level II Hang Tag.
Pic # 2: Green Hang Tag Showing Added Wording
Pic # 3: Paper Work that came with kit Note: the Catalog request with the Star Ship NOVA is
not form this kit this would be from the black Hang Tag Version Circa 1981 and later.

[harsas]

Thanks Neal. That is great information. My mind was actually looking more toward 75, but at my age, being within 2 years is close enough.

I have never been very interested in this sort of detail until I started talking with this guy I met. He is heavily into rocketry (mostly Estes) history and it has been fascinating and fun to remember back. I appreciate your help.

[ghrocketman]

I do not know what version of green hang-tag my kits had. I always saved the header cards, but always cut the tags off & threw 'em out.
If I had to guess at the production date it was definitely between 1974 and 1976 as the person I would buy from had a huge garage-full of kits that were all procured prior to 1978.

He was the father of someone I went to school with, and I never could get a straight story as to where all the kits came from.
Literally had shelves upon shelves of Centuri LJII, Saturn V, and S1B kits as well as Estes 1/70 K29 S1B and 1/100 K-36 Saturn V's. in that garage along with shelves containing boxes of hundreds of other kits. The basement of the house contained thousands of motors and kits as well. The collection literally would have taken more than a semi-trailer to move.
Never did buy any of his 1/45 Centuri LJII or 1/70 Estes Saturn 1B kits but wish I did. Even back then he was asking premium pricing as they were becoming very scarce in the early 80's. I did see one of the 1/45 LJII's of his fly on a 29mm Enerjet Conversion kit. Think it flew on a F52-5, but it may have been an E24-4.

The same guy with a couple of buddies would bring multiple launch racks to the high school field and have a public rocket launch at least 3-4 times a summer. He would always have a van-load of kits and motors to sell. I bought kits/motors from him all through the late 80's and maybe early 90's....I think it was around 1990 or 1991 his son called to tell me my source for cheap rocketry kits had ended as his dad sold off the whole collection to one buyer for well into the $ 5-figure realm. Was still able to get motors for about 25 cents on the dollar for a few more years.

[Neal Miller]

I do not know what version of green hang-tag my kits had. I always saved the header cards, but always cut the tags off & threw 'em out.
If I had to guess at the production date it was definitely between 1974 and 1976 as the person I would buy from had a huge garage-full of kits that were all procured prior to 1978.

He was the father of someone I went to school with, and I never could get a straight story as to where all the kits came from.
Literally had shelves upon shelves of Centuri LJII, Saturn V, and S1B kits as well as Estes 1/70 K29 S1B and 1/100 K-36 Saturn V's. in that garage along with shelves containing boxes of hundreds of other kits. The basement of the house contained thousands of motors and kits as well. The collection literally would have taken more than a semi-trailer to move.
Never did buy any of his 1/45 Centuri LJII or 1/70 Estes Saturn 1B kits but wish I did. Even back then he was asking premium pricing as they were becoming very scarce in the early 80's. I did see one of the 1/45 LJII's of his fly on a 29mm Enerjet Conversion kit. Think it flew on a F52-5, but it may have been an E24-4.

The same guy with a couple of buddies would bring multiple launch racks to the high school field and have a public rocket launch at least 3-4 times a summer. He would always have a van-load of kits and motors to sell. I bought kits/motors from him all through the late 80's and maybe early 90's....I think it was around 1990 or 1991 his son called to tell me my source for cheap rocketry kits had ended as his dad sold off the whole collection to one buyer for well into the $ 5-figure realm. Was still able to get motors for about 25 cents on the dollar for a few more years.

Hi, may I ask what part of Michigan you lived in back then? I wonder if this big sale was the supply of the kits Commonwealth Displays had as inventory. I bought a butt load of kits from Commonwealth back in the late 1980's. and into the 90's. Commonwealth used to sell Centuri motors for $ 1.00 a pack, I still have 20 or so packs left but sorry I burned most all of the B14's.
I used to live in Warren Michigan, my first Model Rocket came from a hobby shop in the
Universal City Mall, on 12 mile road, I have been racking my mind trying to recall the name
of that store. A friend of mine say's it was something like Hobby City or Hobby World.

[ghrocketman]

I live in the same area I have all my life; the Fenton/Linden area.
I work in Warren, but the kit collection the person I knew had nothing to do with Commonwealth; it was located between Holly and Fenton off Hickory Ridge Rd.
I drive by the Universal mall every day on my way to work. One can guess the ONE location worthwhile to work at in Warren that I would drive 120mi round-trip to each day.
The only decent hobby shop in the Warren area is "Prop Shop Hobbies" but they are much heavier into R/C than rocketry.
The person that had the collection was Harry Neuman and my understanding is that he has been out of the hobby at least 20+ years.

[dlazarus6660]

Wow Harold, I'm so proud of you for actually engaging in a discussion and a darned good one too! I like the Shakespeare touch. :p Now, will you be building this rocket?

[Neal Miller]

I live in the same area I have all my life; the Fenton/Linden area.
I work in Warren, but the kit collection the person I knew had nothing to do with Commonwealth; it was located between Holly and Fenton off Hickory Ridge Rd.
I drive by the Universal mall every day on my way to work. One can guess the ONE location worthwhile to work at in Warren that I would drive 120mi round-trip to each day.
The only decent hobby shop in the Warren area is "Prop Shop Hobbies" but they are much heavier into R/C than rocketry.
The person that had the collection was Harry Neuman and my understanding is that he has been out of the hobby at least 20+ years.

Hi GH, if I had to guess; of the probable places to work in Warren Michigan, I would say the Tech. Center or Hydramatic, The Tank Plant would be another good guess.
When I was a Kid my Dad would take me to McDonald's on Van Dyke, across from the Tank Plant. We would sit in the car and eat and watch the Tanks lap the test track.

[harsas]

Wow Harold, I'm so proud of you for actually engaging in a discussion and a darned good one too! I like the Shakespeare touch. :p Now, will you be building this rocket?

I engage in many disussions, and they are all good. Why would I say something that was not good. Pay attention and you might actually learn something. On occasion, I can get very deep. Only problem is, when I do it over at TRF, no one gets it...
:rolleyes:

BTW, this discussion is about a rocket that I built way back when, so no, I will not be building it again. How's the syrup flowing? ;)

[ghrocketman]

Neal is correct...it is one of the three he mentioned.

[dlazarus6660]

I engage in many disussions, and they are all good. Why would I say something that was not good. Pay attention and you might actually learn something. On occasion, I can get very deep. Only problem is, when I do it over at TRF, no one gets it...
:rolleyes:

BTW, this discussion is about a rocket that I built way back when, so no, I will not be building it again. How's the syrup flowing? ;)

I rarely see them. Of course I don't hang here much.

The sap was flowing but it got cold again and stopped. It was a short season.

The trees are budding now.

[harsas]

I rarely see them. Of course I don't hang here much.

The sap was flowing but it got cold again and stopped. It was a short season.

The trees are budding now.


Well, obviously you hang out in the wrong place...

No worries about the syrup. I am on a diet that does not include pancakes anyway.

[PaulK]

...The sap was flowing but it got cold again and stopped. It was a short season.
The trees are budding now.Here in WI, it was the latest season ever for me, collected the last sap just a few days ago. About a 4 week season from late March through late April.

[harsas]

Here in WI, it was the latest season ever for me, collected the last sap just a few days ago. About a 4 week season from late March through late April.


Of course you know the rule is, if you talk about maple syrup in any thread I participate in, you have to send me some...
;)

[dannymrmissile]

[QUOTE=harsas]Thanks Neal. That is great information. My mind was actually looking more toward 75, but at my age, being within 2 years is close enough.

I have never been very interested in this sort of detail until I started talking with this guy I met. He is heavily into rocketry (mostly Estes) history and it has been fascinating and fun to remember back. I appreciate your help.[/QUOTE Oh Harold-I didn't think ya cared!!!!!(ha), Danny

[dannymrmissile]

Harold, the last two hobby shops that have been in operation here in the Fort Lauderdale area
have changed hands, Warrick Hobbies ( opened in 1976) is now corporate owned, the new name is Monster Hobbies. RC hobbies ( opened in 1985) is now Tri County Hobbies.
another hobby shop Discount Train, closed its doors after over 30 years.

Harold I used to supply maintenance for Mobil and Hess Oil, I would travel the State North to South Coast to Coast. I would buy all that funds allowed . Now it's good to see that some of the stores are still there let alone that they have anything left.
Neal- I had a sister who lived in Ft. Lauderdale back in the 60s-70s. I went there & we visited a Hobby store- Orange Blossom Hobbies. I got my 1st Centuri kit there-a Hustler w/3 Mini Max F's. I still have their Catalog, Order Sheet, etc. if u wanna See... Danny.

[Neal Miller]

Danny, Orange blossom Hobbies was one of the Greatest Hobby Shops that ever existed.
that place was not just a hobby shop it was a piece of AMERICANA Period, sad to say
Orange Blossom went the way of the rest of Classic America in the Mid 1990's.
I was in the loop when they closed down and was able to find a lot of old model rocket parts , damaged and opened kits Ect. It does not seem like it has been 18 years that Orange Blossom has been gone but they say the older you get the faster time passes.
But my memory is still as good as it ever was ,I can close my eyes and see the place as if it was yesterday.

Neal

[harsas]

Oh Harold-I didn't think ya cared!!!!!(ha), Danny


Shhh! Don't give away all our secrets...
:p

[harsas]

Danny, Orange blossom Hobbies was one of the Greatest Hobby Shops that ever existed.
that place was not just a hobby shop it was a piece of AMERICANA Period, sad to say
Orange Blossom went the way of the rest of Classic America in the Mid 1990's.
I was in the loop when they closed down and was able to find a lot of old model rocket parts , damaged and opened kits Ect. It does not seem like it has been 18 years that Orange Blossom has been gone but they say the older you get the faster time passes.
But my memory is still as good as it ever was ,I can close my eyes and see the place as if it was yesterday.

Neal


You know, I don't miss many things from years gone by, but the old style family hobby store is one that I do miss a lot. Buying stuff online is simple and convenient, but there is nothing like rummaging through an overstocked hobby store looking for that treasure at the back of the shelf. What fun.

[dannymrmissile]

You know, I don't miss many things from years gone by, but the old style family hobby store is one that I do miss a lot. Buying stuff online is simple and convenient, but there is nothing like rummaging through an overstocked hobby store looking for that treasure at the back of the shelf. What fun.
AMEN TO THAT, Harold !!! We all have the ones we loved as a kid, like the 1 I've told you about many times that my Mom took me to- in Charlotte, NC, "Science Hobbies". They had Telescopes, Chemistry Sets,, everything! I still have Their order form,
plus a few residual items left over with their price tag on it, 1 being an old Estes Vostok, parts, etc. They used to sell/cut Volcanic Geodes in half for us,, never knew what colors you'd get, 'till it was cut. Last time I went, 10 yr. or so ago-it was a Beauty Salon,,, eeek! Danny.

[jetlag]

I remember Snipes Toys and Hobbies here in Columbia on Taylor Street, 1/2 block away from the Baptist Hospital. When my Dad would go make rounds at the hospital, I'd tag along to go the hobby shop. I even learned how to take the bus downtown to get there at the tender age of 12!
There was not a single unoccupied space in that hobby shop. It was wonderful. No matter how many times I may have been there, I could always pass a large amount of time perusing all the rockets (Estes, all, but a LOT of them) and model airplanes engines and supplies. Slot cars, too!
It's where I got my first rocket kits and control-line airplanes.
I miss it greatly...

Allen