PDA

View Full Version : Cineroc: It Only Took 35 Years


Earl
11-30-2011, 10:07 PM
Besides the Centuri 1/45th Little Joe II, the other 'way out of reach dream' of my childhood days was to have and fly an Estes Cineroc. Though I had been a Centuri fan since the very early 70's, I did not get my first Estes catalog until the 76-1 catalog, wherein I saw the Cineroc (I have since found out that was the last catalog to feature the camera; it was dropped for the 76-2 catalog).

Alas, it was way out my price range at the time. Later on in the late 80s and into the early 90s I flew video cameras on some of my high power flights on G through K motors, and have viewed many other's rocket-borne footage in the years since that has been simply spectacular (e.g., Gates Brothers, etc.).

Still, I always wanted to one day obtain a Cineroc.

Several weeks ago one appeared on eBay, with a slight 'name' twist in the auction title: the seller had it listed as a 'Cinerco' model rocket movie camera. That little mis-spelling would turn out to be fortuitous, as the auction closed with only three bidders and a final selling price of just $107.

The auction photos seemed to show a complete unit, best I could tell, but the seller was apparently uninitiated in model rocketry in general, so the photos were not as complete as one would might like. Still, it looked very clean in the photos and the final selling price seemed pretty reasonable.

After the shipment arrived here a couple weeks ago and I unpacked it, I believe it to be a totally complete AND never flown Cineroc.

I *think* everything is there, and the film pak was still sealed. The only thing I could not find intially was the Cineroc decal, but it 'fell out' of the folded manual when I started going through and unfolding its pages.

But, I wanted to post it here and get any information from those who are much more initiated in Cineroc knowledge and ask two things, based on the attached photos of the unit and its contents:

(1) Does this appear to be complete?

(2) Is there any way to determine what vintage this unit may be?


As for question 2, there are a few clues I've run down at this point. I don't believe it is an 'early' unit, as the box top has an 'applied' Estes label over what used to be the box-printed original price of $19.95. So, it is not in the first year or two of issue. Secondly, in that same photo attached showing the applied box sticker, the sticker shows a catalog # 701-CM-8. From what I can tell looking back at older Estes catalogs, this catalog number was used for the Cineroc through the 1974 catalog. In 1975, Estes used a four digit catalog number. So from that I would deduce this unit is from around the '72-'74 timeframe, but am not sure.

Believe it or not, the film pack batteries, which only showed very minor corrosion when I opened the pack, still registered voltage. They were not enerjetic enough to run the camera (no surprise), but a trip to Radio Shack a few days later snagged a couple of fresh N cells and those DID fire that little motor up just fine.

It is my eventual plan to reload the flight pak with fresh film (researching that now, along with available film stocks, developers to handle the short film lengths, etc.) and get at least a flight or two on the camera with sucessful film footage, just to 'enjoy' the full vintage Cineroc experience. But all that will take a while to accomplish and available time is pretty slim these days.

However, f you have any info on original kit contents or other ways of determining vintage, I'd appreciate comments.


Earl

luke strawwalker
11-30-2011, 10:49 PM
Yeah, I always wanted one of those too, but by the time I came into the hobby they were LONG gone, but still talked about a few still flew... (enough to whet my appetite for one!) I even briefly considered saving up enough to try and snag one back in the early 90's when I was fresh out of high school... Never did though, and it was LONG before feebay and trying to find on back then was sorta like finding hen's teeth. So, the dream died.

I'd love to clone one though... the film is completely outdated by today's standards and MUCH better results are easily obtainable from keyfob cams and the like nowdays, so I have no real interest in "functionality"... It'd be kinda interesting to equip one with a modern micro-flash card cam, but it'd be kinda neat just to have a faux flying version of it and the Omega booster...

Now where is that thread about cloning it again?? :)

Later and have a blast with it! OL JR :)

jadebox
11-30-2011, 10:57 PM
I need to find my Cineroc film from the 1970s. I saved up my allowance for months to buy the Cineroc and Omega. I launched it at my mother's family's farm during a summer vacation trip. I couldn't find the blast deflector for the launch pad. So, in the movie, you see a piece of aluminum foil disintegrate as the motor ignites. Then you see me standing beside our old station wagon, it's hood open because I used its battery for the launch controller. Eventually you can see a few cows then the rocket arcs over and the parachute deploys.

Estes stopped producing the film packs about the time I bought my Cineroc. So, I only got one film from it.

I transferred the film to a VHS tape a while ago. I'm not sure where the original film and the tape are. But, they are here in the house somewhere.

The Omega was my favorite rocket as a kid. But, D motors were too big and expensive (and too scary). So, I often flew it (single stage) on a C6 mtoor.

My Level 2 Cert flight a few years ago was an upscale Omega clone flying on an I motor.

-- Roger

blackshire
11-30-2011, 11:26 PM
Yeah, I always wanted one of those too, but by the time I came into the hobby they were LONG gone, but still talked about a few still flew... (enough to whet my appetite for one!) I even briefly considered saving up enough to try and snag one back in the early 90's when I was fresh out of high school... Never did though, and it was LONG before feebay and trying to find on back then was sorta like finding hen's teeth. So, the dream died.

I'd love to clone one though... the film is completely outdated by today's standards and MUCH better results are easily obtainable from keyfob cams and the like nowdays, so I have no real interest in "functionality"... It'd be kinda interesting to equip one with a modern micro-flash card cam, but it'd be kinda neat just to have a faux flying version of it and the Omega booster...

Now where is that thread about cloning it again?? :)

Later and have a blast with it! OL JR :)Estes could please both us old-timers and the young 'uns by bringing back the Cineroc casing (with a large access hatch) with multiple options for various existing video cameras and still cameras that could be installed inside it (the Cineroc case has ample room inside for cameras, lenses, and mirrors for different image sizes and optical paths). The new Cineroc could come with an inexpensive key fob or gum camera. For those who like film still photography, the Cineroc case could probably hold a 35 mm camera setup inside it. Also:

If offered with an Astron Omega launch vehicle, this new Cineroc could be flown either single stage (as Roger mentioned above--the 24 mm C11 motors would work nicely) or in two-stage configuration.

rokitflite
12-01-2011, 12:21 AM
Great deal seeing as one in the same condition went for over $400 a few days ago. It looks 100% complete and is of a "newer" vintage judging by the parackute. I also has the Estes label in the corner of the box that covered up the original $19.95 price tag that was printed on the box. Lastly, the pictures don't show it, but there are probably small triangular gussets where the mechanism tray meets the base of the transition. This was added later on and provided much more strength at that joint.

Earl
12-01-2011, 01:23 AM
Great deal seeing as one in the same condition went for over $400 a few days ago. It looks 100% complete and is of a "newer" vintage judging by the parackute. I also has the Estes label in the corner of the box that covered up the original $19.95 price tag that was printed on the box. Lastly, the pictures don't show it, but there are probably small triangular gussets where the mechanism tray meets the base of the transition. This was added later on and provided much more strength at that joint.

Thanks Scott for your response. Yes, I thought it was a pretty good deal at the time, but when that other one a week or so ago that you referred to on ebay (in the same condition) went for over $400, I felt VERY fortunate on this one.

The applied Estes logoed sticker on the box over the original box-printed price was a clue to me that it was not produced in the first couple years (I think the price stayed at $19.95 the first two years the Cineroc was out). And that orange and white parachute is from no earlier than the early 70s....whenever Estes got away from the 'checkerboard' parachutes.

I did recall in an American Spacemodeling (NAR mag) article here a few years ago (I dug that issue back out a few days ago) where Mike Dorfler recounted the development of the Cineroc and I think in that article he talks about those beefed up gussets being added to the frame just a few months into production of the Cineroc because folks were breaking the camera frame just inserting it into the nosecone/shroud assembly. This unit features the gussets.

Based on the product number printed on that box label, it appears to be a pre-1975 unit best I can tell, since the '75 and '76 catalogs show a four digit product number for the Cineroc by then.

Otherwise, the unit appears pristine from what I can tell. I suspect when I put those two new N cells in the unit here about a week or so ago and turned it on (it ran!!!), that's probably the first time it had been run since it left the factory, seeing as how the original film flight pak (with batteries) had never been opened. The parachute was still sealed, the battery tester was still on it's paper directions slip, shock cord unused. No sign at all that it had ever been 'cranked up'. The only 'issue' there was at all with the contents was that the manual was folded over in 'quads' and not in the nice, neat factory form it was originally.

The only thing I have not yet 'opened' is the film cartridge itself. I'll eventually do that when I get ready to start doing some experimenting with film reloading and such after I decide which will be the best current-day film stock to try to use in it. Kodak still makes several Super 8 stocks and I think one of them may work ok. Still need to do some further research though.

Thanks for your feedback Scott. I think someone posted in an earlier thread that you probably would know a thing or two about the Cinerocs. ;)


Earl

Royatl
12-01-2011, 03:23 AM
I got a Cineroc just after NARAM-50. I got it dirt cheap, but the batteries were installed and they and the battery harness were badly corroded. The rubber band on the pulley, of course, was toast, but otherwise, the rest of the camera appears to be in good shape. The main decision has to be whether to repair or attempt to replace the battery harness. Since I'm not as eager to actually run film through the camera, that decision has so far been very easy -- do nothing, and just bring it out occasionally to show people!

luke strawwalker
12-01-2011, 11:02 AM
Estes could please both us old-timers and the young 'uns by bringing back the Cineroc casing (with a large access hatch) with multiple options for various existing video cameras and still cameras that could be installed inside it (the Cineroc case has ample room inside for cameras, lenses, and mirrors for different image sizes and optical paths). The new Cineroc could come with an inexpensive key fob or gum camera. For those who like film still photography, the Cineroc case could probably hold a 35 mm camera setup inside it. Also:

If offered with an Astron Omega launch vehicle, this new Cineroc could be flown either single stage (as Roger mentioned above--the 24 mm C11 motors would work nicely) or in two-stage configuration.

That would be cool... I've thought about gutting the interior of my old Astrocam 110 and converting it into a housing for a camera setup... since 110 film is harder to find that hen's teeth, and the Astrocam never took THAT good a pic anyway (due to the small negative, small lens, and small mirror). I would have loved to see an "Astrocam II" set up to use 35mm film... the larger negative and higher ISO speeds available would have allowed for faster shutter speeds and larger lenses/mirrors, but it would have been heavier/larger, probably the camera section would have been around a BT-70 or BT-80 size... still, coulda "hammerheaded" it on top of a Maniac/Eliminator/Challenger II with D motors, or the two staged Maniac with a D booster and E sustainer for some interesting flights...

Later! OL JR :)

Doug Sams
12-01-2011, 11:25 AM
I would have loved to see an "Astrocam II" set up to use 35mm film...I think any camera or video rocket today, in order to be commercially viable, must be digital (and have some sort of reliable, non-volatile storage, unlike one recent unit). Folks today, with iPhones and micro-USB connectors, want to download and watch the video/see pics while they're at the field. Not only do they not want to wait for film developing, they don't even want to wait to get home to see what they got.

So, while 35mm film is a huge improvement over 110, it's still not viable, in this day and age, IMNSHO.

Doug

.

Doug Sams
12-01-2011, 11:27 AM
I've thought about gutting the interior of my old Astrocam 110 and converting it into a housing for a camera setup... This is a good idea, I think. But for a keychain cam or something similar. If you were gutting a Cineroc or Camroc, it'd be rocketry blashemy! But, given the Astrocams aren't so rare, it makes sense to do that.

Doug

.

jadebox
12-01-2011, 02:29 PM
Semroc sells parts to create a pseudo-Cineroc.

BC-1834 Cineroc Balsa Nose Cone
ST-1844 Cineroc Body Tube
BR-60-18 Cineroc Balsa Adapter to BT-60

I've bought the parts and already have a clone of the Omega. Sometime I'll put them all together with a small digital camera to make an Omega-Cineroc clone like the one at:

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=7016&page=1&pp=10

-- Roger

zog139
12-01-2011, 03:35 PM
I did exactly this (parts from Semroc) and rigged up a gum cam to shoot outwards and mirror down. Worked great, have to look for the video and any stills.

Earl
12-01-2011, 07:51 PM
I think any camera or video rocket today, in order to be commercially viable, must be digital (and have some sort of reliable, non-volatile storage, unlike one recent unit). Folks today, with iPhones and micro-USB connectors, want to download and watch the video/see pics while they're at the field. Not only do they not want to wait for film developing, they don't even want to wait to get home to see what they got.

So, while 35mm film is a huge improvement over 110, it's still not viable, in this day and age, IMNSHO.

Doug

.


I can pretty much agree wih that. I've been doing some experimentation with the pen cams and such to work towards a decent and relatively simple on-board video 'system' to obtain decent footage easily. I'd like to do some wireless transmitter stuff too at some point down the line. But certainly for recording video or stills, digital is basically the way to go. I switched to digital HD video workflow (Sony XDcam) at work about two years ago and it's hard to think of even going back to tape based workflows now.

Still, there is a certain charm about analog film and though I suspect it's gonna be a fair amount of effort to shoot footage in a Cineroc these days, it is one of those things that I just want to attempt to fully live out the Cineroc 'experience'. But film is certainly not the path I take starting from scratch, that's certain.

Earl

luke strawwalker
12-01-2011, 09:52 PM
I think any camera or video rocket today, in order to be commercially viable, must be digital (and have some sort of reliable, non-volatile storage, unlike one recent unit). Folks today, with iPhones and micro-USB connectors, want to download and watch the video/see pics while they're at the field. Not only do they not want to wait for film developing, they don't even want to wait to get home to see what they got.

So, while 35mm film is a huge improvement over 110, it's still not viable, in this day and age, IMNSHO.

Doug

.

Oh yeah, didn't mean they should come out with it NOW... should have clarified that I guess... the time for a product like this was during the 90's...

110 film has been hard to find around here for a LONG time... 35mm film is nearly impossible to find around here anymore now too. Film is slowly going the way of the dodo... it'll always have a place in "professional" photography (or VERY serious amateurs) because there are things you can do with film that are difficult or impossible to do with digitals, but film is already a "niche" product as far as consumer photography goes... I figure that trend will continue.

For most stuff, digital IS superior... as you said, the "instant access" to the product is a big plus, and if something's screwed up or you just don't like the finished product, you can hit 'delete' and don't have ANY sunk costs in film or developing (other than the cost of the flight itself). That's a BIG plus...

Later! OL JR :)

luke strawwalker
12-01-2011, 09:53 PM
This is a good idea, I think. But for a keychain cam or something similar. If you were gutting a Cineroc or Camroc, it'd be rocketry blashemy! But, given the Astrocams aren't so rare, it makes sense to do that.

Doug

.

Course if I do in 15 or 20 years I'll be kicking myself for gutting a perfectly good Astrocam that's worth big bucks THEN... :chuckle:

Later! OL JR :)

Earl
12-01-2011, 11:05 PM
I got a Cineroc just after NARAM-50. I got it dirt cheap, but the batteries were installed and they and the battery harness were badly corroded. The rubber band on the pulley, of course, was toast, but otherwise, the rest of the camera appears to be in good shape. The main decision has to be whether to repair or attempt to replace the battery harness. Since I'm not as eager to actually run film through the camera, that decision has so far been very easy -- do nothing, and just bring it out occasionally to show people!

Roy-

I think there might be a readable manufacturer's name on the metal battery holder assembly. If I can make it out, and maybe a part number, it's possible the part may still be commercially available for a replacement for yours.

If I can read it off mine I'll post it here in the next day or so.

Earl

raohara
12-02-2011, 12:44 AM
At NARAM-15 (or was it 14?) I met a guy named Herb Desond. He was what I call a Camroc or Cineroc "nut." He loved those things. As a 14 year old kid I thought it was rather a strange obsession, but, you know, I was 14.

Shortly after meeting him I found three new cameras in a distributor's warehouse. I bought them and turned around and sold them to him at a tidy profit. I think it was the first time I ever handled an out-of-state check (Maryland, maybe?).

I've always wondered what happened to Herb and his camera collection.

- Rich

Ltvscout
12-02-2011, 08:56 AM
Thanks for your feedback Scott. I think someone posted in an earlier thread that you probably would know a thing or two about the Cinerocs. ;)
I believe he acquired Herb Desind's collection of Cinerocs after he passed away.

Mine have a flat white box as well used to mail the film cartridge back to Estes.

Talk to Kurt Schachner about putting new film in the cartridges. We did a number of them in a dark closet in his basement in the late 90's. We also cut out Camroc film disks with a punch.

luke strawwalker
12-02-2011, 09:53 AM
At NARAM-15 (or was it 14?) I met a guy named Herb Desond. He was what I call a Camroc or Cineroc "nut." He loved those things. As a 14 year old kid I thought it was rather a strange obsession, but, you know, I was 14.

Shortly after meeting him I found three new cameras in a distributor's warehouse. I bought them and turned around and sold them to him at a tidy profit. I think it was the first time I ever handled an out-of-state check (Maryland, maybe?).

I've always wondered what happened to Herb and his camera collection.

- Rich

There was a photo of Herb and his Cineroc collection, or at least part of it, in "American Spacemodeling" back in the late 80's early 90's as part of an article or something... an entire closet floor filled with Cineroc boxes side by side, paving the floor like tiles...

Later! OL JR :)

Earl
12-02-2011, 10:01 AM
There was a photo of Herb and his Cineroc collection, or at least part of it, in "American Spacemodeling" back in the late 80's early 90's as part of an article or something... an entire closet floor filled with Cineroc boxes side by side, paving the floor like tiles...

Later! OL JR :)

I remember that photo......was kind of amazing to see. I wonder just how many Cineroc flights Herb made all told? Seems I recall an earlier thread here that said maybe all his films had possibly been lost, but that Scott had inherited the Cinerocs themselves.

It would really be a shame if all Herb's flight footage has been lost. Seems like I read somewhere that he may have made 10,000 Cineroc flights....which seems almost unbelievable, but one would assume he made certainly many, many hundreds of flights in his time.

Earl

wilsotr
12-02-2011, 01:43 PM
Earl -

You may be aware of this already, but there was an article on flying the Cineroc in the Jan-Feb 1972 "Model Rocketry" magainze, pg-13-15, which addressed loading your own film cartridges ...

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v04n04_(01-02)-72.pdf

May be some useful info there for you.

zog139
12-02-2011, 04:27 PM
At NARAM-15 (or was it 14?) I met a guy named Herb Desond.

I've always wondered what happened to Herb and his camera collection.

- Rich


Greetings:

Herb Desind was my ninth grade science teacher at Eisenhower Junior High School in Laurel Md. I joined Herb's rocket club at he end of fifth grade and yes all he flew was Cineroc's and flew them in all sorts of configurations. He once flew a three stager with a F100 staged to a F100 staged to a F100. I do not think he got that one back if memory serves. I was in charge of recovering the first stage and it tumbled into the thick underbrush of the woods west of the school. No luck with it either.

Back in the day if the weather didn't allow us to launch he would show us film of where he flew Cinerocs all over the world literally. I remember seeing one taken at the edge of a volcano in Hawaii.

Herb passed in 1990 of colon cancer. It saddened many of us that knew him. Perhaps I can get Scott Branche to chime in here as well. He also knew Herb.

Earl
12-02-2011, 07:34 PM
Earl -

You may be aware of this already, but there was an article on flying the Cineroc in the Jan-Feb 1972 "Model Rocketry" magainze, pg-13-15, which addressed loading your own film cartridges ...

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ModelRocketry/Model_Rocketry_v04n04_(01-02)-72.pdf

May be some useful info there for you.

Tim-

Thanks for the tip. Actually, I was able to pick up a copy that particular issue some months back and have pulled it back out to re-read that article by Richard Fox. Indeed, it does provide some very good information on reloading, even though the article is pushing 40 years old.

Thanks again,

Earl

blackshire
12-02-2011, 08:29 PM
I think any camera or video rocket today, in order to be commercially viable, must be digital (and have some sort of reliable, non-volatile storage, unlike one recent unit). Folks today, with iPhones and micro-USB connectors, want to download and watch the video/see pics while they're at the field. Not only do they not want to wait for film developing, they don't even want to wait to get home to see what they got.

So, while 35mm film is a huge improvement over 110, it's still not viable, in this day and age, IMNSHO.

Doug

.Polaroid-type instant-developing film would be an option. (I recently read that polaroid-type box cameras are in development because such cameras don't require other devices, or fiddling with software-operated devices, in order to view the pictures--it's literally "point, shoot, and view.")

Earl
12-02-2011, 09:22 PM
I got a Cineroc just after NARAM-50. I got it dirt cheap, but the batteries were installed and they and the battery harness were badly corroded. The rubber band on the pulley, of course, was toast, but otherwise, the rest of the camera appears to be in good shape. The main decision has to be whether to repair or attempt to replace the battery harness. Since I'm not as eager to actually run film through the camera, that decision has so far been very easy -- do nothing, and just bring it out occasionally to show people!

Roy-

I pulled the Cineroc back out and removed the new N cells from the battery holder assembly. The following company name appears on the bottom of each battery holder 'trough': Acme Model Engineering Co., Ridgefield, NJ.

There was no part number that I could see though. I haven't done any Google checks to see if these folks might still be around, but it would probably be worth a check see. Who knows, they might still be in business and may even still carry this double N cell holder that you could replace yours with.

Earl

Edit: looks like they are still in business (they've changed their name, but there are still references to 'Acme' on their web site) and still make that same dual N cell battery holder. See here: http://www.utmfg.com/product/BAT-N/130.html


Earl

Earl
12-02-2011, 09:35 PM
Here's a photo of the Flight Pak contents just as they looked moments after I opened the pak a couple weeks ago.

The two Eveready N cells only showed traces of corrosion, which is surprising considering they have got to be in the neighborhood of 37-39 years old!

Remember the "Nine Lives" logo with the cat on the old Eveready batteries?! That brought back memories of many battery-powered childhood toys powered by Eveready brand batteries.

As I mentioned in the opening post, these two batteries both showed about 1.5 volts when I tested them right after this photo was taken. They would not turn the Cineroc motor over, but they did show voltage, which also seems incredible for batteries this old.

At some point I'll open the film cartridge itself and become more familiar with it's workings towards the day I can reload it with some fresh film.

Earl

luke strawwalker
12-03-2011, 11:03 AM
Polaroid-type instant-developing film would be an option. (I recently read that polaroid-type box cameras are in development because such cameras don't require other devices, or fiddling with software-operated devices, in order to view the pictures--it's literally "point, shoot, and view.")

Yeah, but that format doesn't lend itself well to conversion to a flying camera... it's too big and boxy... (oh sure there's plenty of HPR projects it'd fit into but I'm talking about for the average LPR/MPR modeler). You MIGHT be able to do a hammerhead on a BT-80, but the physical size is really going to be a constraint.

Unless of course one came up with their own format-- maybe "mini-pics" half the size of a standard Polaroid... but then you'd have to have someone manufacture them, and that would CERTAINLY be prohibitively expensive!

Later! OL JR :)

luke strawwalker
12-03-2011, 11:05 AM
Roy-

I pulled the Cineroc back out and removed the new N cells from the battery holder assembly. The following company name appears on the bottom of each battery holder 'trough': Acme Model Engineering Co., Ridgefield, NJ.

There was no part number that I could see though. I haven't done any Google checks to see if these folks might still be around, but it would probably be worth a check see. Who knows, they might still be in business and may even still carry this double N cell holder that you could replace yours with.

Earl

Edit: looks like they are still in business (they've changed their name, but there are still references to 'Acme' on their web site) and still make that same dual N cell battery holder. See here: http://www.utmfg.com/product/BAT-N/130.html


Earl

SURE they're still in business!!! Everything the Coyote buys comes from ACME!!! (gotta get me some of those roller skis... :))

Later! OL JR :)

Earl
12-03-2011, 07:24 PM
SURE they're still in business!!! Everything the Coyote buys comes from ACME!!! (gotta get me some of those roller skis... :))

Later! OL JR :)


Yeah, I really had to laugh when I looked (squinting heavily...those were tiny letters etched into that battery holder metal) and could make out 'Acme'. I thought, "Well, I guess that's about as American as one could get".

I think they actually supply a lot of manufactured parts for the hobby train industry. But, I was kinda surprised to see they were still in business AND still had that same Cineroc battery holder in their product portfolio.

Earl

Earl
12-03-2011, 07:26 PM
Greetings:

Herb Desind was my ninth grade science teacher at Eisenhower Junior High School in Laurel Md. I joined Herb's rocket club at he end of fifth grade and yes all he flew was Cineroc's and flew them in all sorts of configurations. He once flew a three stager with a F100 staged to a F100 staged to a F100. I do not think he got that one back if memory serves. I was in charge of recovering the first stage and it tumbled into the thick underbrush of the woods west of the school. No luck with it either.

Back in the day if the weather didn't allow us to launch he would show us film of where he flew Cinerocs all over the world literally. I remember seeing one taken at the edge of a volcano in Hawaii.

Herb passed in 1990 of colon cancer. It saddened many of us that knew him. Perhaps I can get Scott Branche to chime in here as well. He also knew Herb.


Jim-

Thanks for the info on Herb....interesting stories. Do you remember him stating at any point on the number of Cineroc flights he had made? Any other notable locations he had flight footage from?

Earl

Royatl
12-03-2011, 10:08 PM
Yeah, but that format doesn't lend itself well to conversion to a flying camera... it's too big and boxy... (oh sure there's plenty of HPR projects it'd fit into but I'm talking about for the average LPR/MPR modeler). You MIGHT be able to do a hammerhead on a BT-80, but the physical size is really going to be a constraint.

Unless of course one came up with their own format-- maybe "mini-pics" half the size of a standard Polaroid... but then you'd have to have someone manufacture them, and that would CERTAINLY be prohibitively expensive!

Later! OL JR :)


There was a Polaroid format about 10 years ago of a size that could (and probably was) used on rockets. When I was with Priceline.com we gave these cameras (came with a pack of the film) away as premiums. The picture size was on the order of 2 x 1.5" or maybe a little smaller. And there was a version of the film that came with a self adhesive back so you could stick the finished photo on a notebook (yes, they were marketed to teens and tweens). The basic difference between these packs and the regular Polaroid packs was that they had no built in batteries. The camera was completely mechanical, as ancient Polaroid Land cameras were. The batteries in it were only for the flash. You cocked it by pulling a plastic chain, and after taking the picture you pulled the chain again to pull the film through the rollers.

When Polaroid was sold a few years ago the new owner shut down the instant film lines. However, the employees of one of the plants (in Sweden or Norway?) bought the plant and have started up the line again, at least making the Polaroid 600 film (descendant of the SX-70/Swinger cameras). Fuji also still makes a Polaroid-style instant film and they make a "credit card" sized film.

CaninoBD
12-03-2011, 11:46 PM
Herb was quite a guy. I remember him when I was with GSSS and he would come up and fly with the club. I remember him mixing epoxy on the back seat of the bomb he use to drive. He also play a video tape of a lot of his Cineroc's at the Pearl River Model Rocket Convention. You can see that video on the NART's NAR History DVD


Greetings:

Herb Desind was my ninth grade science teacher at Eisenhower Junior High School in Laurel Md. I joined Herb's rocket club at he end of fifth grade and yes all he flew was Cineroc's and flew them in all sorts of configurations. He once flew a three stager with a F100 staged to a F100 staged to a F100. I do not think he got that one back if memory serves. I was in charge of recovering the first stage and it tumbled into the thick underbrush of the woods west of the school. No luck with it either.

Back in the day if the weather didn't allow us to launch he would show us film of where he flew Cinerocs all over the world literally. I remember seeing one taken at the edge of a volcano in Hawaii.

Herb passed in 1990 of colon cancer. It saddened many of us that knew him. Perhaps I can get Scott Branche to chime in here as well. He also knew Herb.

stefanj
12-04-2011, 12:56 AM
Herb Desind showed up at a long-ago North Shore Section launch. It was near Nassau Coliseum, as I recall.

I recall Herb was enthusiastic to the point of being a little crazy. He had a big garbage bag full of beat-up Omegas (single stage, mostly) with Cinerocs on top. When he wanted to launch he'd just grab one.

It would have been cool to see some footage of the stadium from above.

Earl
12-04-2011, 07:40 PM
I believe he acquired Herb Desind's collection of Cinerocs after he passed away.

Mine have a flat white box as well used to mail the film cartridge back to Estes.

Talk to Kurt Schachner about putting new film in the cartridges. We did a number of them in a dark closet in his basement in the late 90's. We also cut out Camroc film disks with a punch.

Scott-

Thanks for the info.....is Kurt a member here or do you have contact info for him?


Earl

Ltvscout
12-04-2011, 07:58 PM
Scott-

Thanks for the info.....is Kurt a member here or do you have contact info for him?

Yup. He uses his real name here.

RedMaxFlyer
12-05-2011, 01:58 AM
There was a Polaroid format about 10 years ago of a size that could (and probably was) used on rockets. When I was with Priceline.com we gave these cameras (came with a pack of the film) away as premiums. The picture size was on the order of 2 x 1.5" or maybe a little smaller. And there was a version of the film that came with a self adhesive back so you could stick the finished photo on a notebook (yes, they were marketed to teens and tweens).

The specific brand name of those was "i-Zone", I believe. When I was in first grade there was a three month period in which everyone in the class was obsessed with them. That was long before I was into rockets, so I never had the though to try to convert one for flight.

Cohetero-negro
12-07-2011, 07:26 AM
Great deal seeing as one in the same condition went for over $400 a few days ago. It looks 100% complete and is of a "newer" vintage judging by the parackute. I also has the Estes label in the corner of the box that covered up the original $19.95 price tag that was printed on the box. Lastly, the pictures don't show it, but there are probably small triangular gussets where the mechanism tray meets the base of the transition. This was added later on and provided much more strength at that joint.

I wonder what a proto-type 'see through' Cineroc would fetch or the original first flight film made my Mike D. would fetch? Then there is the photo and negatives of Mike Dorfler standing with Vern Estes, then Gov. Guy Love, all examining the 'see through' Cineroc might be worth on the open market? One can only guess :rolleyes:

Nice acquisition Earl! Very nice!

Jonathan

Blastfromthepast
12-16-2011, 04:45 PM
Hi, All,
I have a little information about Herb Desind, as I had frequent correspondence with him back in the late 70s/early 80's.
Just to let you know a little about myself to start, I used to be a very avid model rocketeer here in Colorado Springs. I was NAR #25180 in the ROMAR section (Rocky Mountain Association of Rocketry), and served as NAR Mountain States regional manager around 1981-82. I dropped out of the hobby in 1986 due to job constraints and raising 3 children.
I received correspondence from Herb asking me if I would be interested in launching some of his Cinerocs in Colorado with the intent of getting some shots of the majestic Rocky Mountains. Herb not only flew Cinerocs a great deal himself, but he also distributed them around the US and abroad to get movies from everywher he could! I readily agreed, so Herb mailed me 2 complete Cineroc/Omega systems with detailed instructions on how to operate them according to his modifications. I don't recall a lot about these changes today other than he had come up with a way to suspend the camera from the parachute so that it hung at about a 45 degree angle for panoranic shots. I seem to recall that he had toyed with ways to enhance the optics on the camera, as well as modifying his own film cartridges to hold longer running films. The cool thing is that Herb said I could keep the Cinerocs as my own as long as I kept sending him the film negatives. In this way I obtained several pretty good movies!
I managed to lose one of the Cinerocs when I accompanied some friends on a ski trip to Breckenridge, Colorado. Finding a good open space, I prepped a Cineroc/Omega in the snow, turned the camera on , and let 'er fly! It was a gorgeous, straight-up flight that deployed the camera perfectly. Unfortunately, the model encountered some winds aloft that carried it straight into a forested area! In an attempt to trek after it, I found the snow way too deep for hiking, so I made a trip to downtown Breckenridge, rented some snow shoes and returned back to the launch site. After searching for hours in the woods for the model, I had to give up when it started becoming too dark. To this day, I lament that this lost flight had probably taken one of the best Cineroc movies ever.....
The 2nd camera was sold in 2005 to a member of COSROCS along with my remaining collection of over 50 sport and contest rockets, kits, tons of parts, engines, rocket plans, and even a small stack of NARAM-11 flight cards obtained years before from Bill Roe (NAR #2). At this sale, I almost held back the Cineroc, knowing that it had become a much sought-after collector's item. Oddly, I did keep my AstroCam / Delta II combo as well as the first rocket I ever owned, an Estes Hornet. I still have these displayed in a curio cabinet.

I was very sad to hear of Herb's passing.

Cohetero-negro
12-16-2011, 05:21 PM
Hi, All,

I was very sad to hear of Herb's passing.


Blast,

Thank you for sharing! Herb was Mr. Cineroc! He also had one of the largest private collections of military, aerospace, and civilian space ephemera on the planet! IIRC, he got a call from the FBI back in the day when he was writing former Soviet countries for information!

When he passed, he left the bulk of his rocket collection to Scott Branche; this is why Scott has so many Cinerocs and other early kits.

You are not the only one to loose a Cineroc in such a way. A flyer over in Hawaii lost his Cineroc down into a large canyon area and couldn't get deep enough in to find it :(

BTW, I use Herb's collection all the time to research Scale modes. The Smithsonian has his ephemera collection and you can look it up on-line and then order copies of what ever you want. Just head over to the Smithsonian and search, 'Desind Collection'. Very nice stuff!

I collect, but I don't do it for people alive at the moment, but for the ones who are crapping and peeing in their diapers (infant). I am in my 40's and God willing, I hope to live another 30 - 40 years. When I am in my last decade of life, I plan to sell off, and gift my collectibles. They range from late 50's/early 60's Model Rocket items all the way to items that have flown to the Lunar surface and personal effects of Astronauts. A few typical and atypical Cineroc items also thrown in there to boot! I was lucky enough to be placed in contact with a gentleman who had acquired a vast cache of items that came out of the old Estes house when it was moved... needless to say, thank God I got it because I am PRESERVING model rocket history and not running to ebay or bragging on here about each and every item I have ... that is the difference between myself and others .... model rocketry was my escape from an extremely abusive home. While many here remember fondly flying their first rocket with their Dad, I used model rocketry to escape my parents, and community. If it hadn't have been for model rocketry, I would have taken my hate and pain, joined a gang and shoot dead another gang member or died in a drug deal ... the ghetto (Compton California) was HELL for me ... but I survived and am keeping rocketry preserved!

They'll have to pry my collection from my dead cold hands! :) I have an open agreement with the Los Angeles Museum of Science and Industry to donate what I have to them. The wife will have to determine where things go if she should outlive me, so only time will tell.

Jonathan

Blastfromthepast
12-16-2011, 05:30 PM
Thanks for the reply....
Sounds like you have a very comprehensive collection of model rocket history..Jeez, if I didn't have enough hobbies already, I would bet the 30+ year old model rocketry bug would bite me again.

Blastfromthepast
12-19-2011, 11:56 AM
Hi,
This past weekend, I dug through my old storage boxes and found all the correspondence from Herb datain from 1976-77. It turns out that Herb was able to contact me through a group that we both belonged to...The Starlords International Association of Rocketry, based in Hawaii, with membership from all over the world. This was good for Herb because it gave him a worldwide list of people to which he could send Cinerocs to fly in their countries. Anyway, I ended up locating 5 Cinerocs on hobby store shelves in Colorado Springs that I managed to purchase for him and send his way. Among my letters from Herb were some photos of himself launching a Cineroc form an F engine carrier bird, some photos from one of the NARWIN Winternats in Phoenix (one of these was an excellent photo of G. Harry Stine himself launching an F Class Altitiude bird!). Herb also sent me an excellent Mars Rover photo straight from NASA!

Good memories......

Earl
12-19-2011, 11:19 PM
Hi,
This past weekend, I dug through my old storage boxes and found all the correspondence from Herb datain from 1976-77. It turns out that Herb was able to contact me through a group that we both belonged to...The Starlords International Association of Rocketry, based in Hawaii, with membership from all over the world. This was good for Herb because it gave him a worldwide list of people to which he could send Cinerocs to fly in their countries. Anyway, I ended up locating 5 Cinerocs on hobby store shelves in Colorado Springs that I managed to purchase for him and send his way. Among my letters from Herb were some photos of himself launching a Cineroc form an F engine carrier bird, some photos from one of the NARWIN Winternats in Phoenix (one of these was an excellent photo of G. Harry Stine himself launching an F Class Altitiude bird!). Herb also sent me an excellent Mars Rover photo straight from NASA!

Good memories......

Thanks for the various posts on your interactions with Herb. Very interesting. If you get a chance, scan and post a photo or two of those you found.


Earl

Earl
04-07-2013, 01:15 PM
Scanned image of the Cineroc tape strip for a YORF member who asked.

Earl

K'Tesh
04-07-2013, 01:26 PM
Thanks Earl!

I'm trying to make a copy of the 1974 Estes Catalog's Combination offer (RC-8) (previous years 701-RC-8), and the more info I can gather the better the kit will turn out.

Tape looks to be about 3/8" wide, and just shy of 4 15/16" long with two pieces of 11/16" (presumably to seal the switch's port)

All The Best!
K'Tesh

kurtschachner
04-07-2013, 05:02 PM
I know that like me, you probably want to keep it original (especially seeing how you can likely still get that old metal holder), but a better option would be a single 3v lithium cell. I messed around with converting one of my Cinerocs to use a lithium battery, it appeared to run at the same speed and lasted at least as long as two alkaline N cells.

Roy-

I pulled the Cineroc back out and removed the new N cells from the battery holder assembly. The following company name appears on the bottom of each battery holder 'trough': Acme Model Engineering Co., Ridgefield, NJ.

There was no part number that I could see though. I haven't done any Google checks to see if these folks might still be around, but it would probably be worth a check see. Who knows, they might still be in business and may even still carry this double N cell holder that you could replace yours with.

Earl

Edit: looks like they are still in business (they've changed their name, but there are still references to 'Acme' on their web site) and still make that same dual N cell battery holder. See here: http://www.utmfg.com/product/BAT-N/130.html


Earl

kurtschachner
04-08-2013, 06:31 PM
FYI, apparently Kodak has discontinued the last Super 8 color reversal film they used to make. It was Kodachrome 100D (about half as fast as you wanted for a Cineroc, you had to have it push-processed), but it worked. That is gone now.

All that is left is color negative film. The Vision3 200T is the right speed but it is tungsten balanced and negative film of course. Plus having a roll of negative film transferred to DVD or whatever format costs around $125.

So ends the ability to directly project a "modern" Cineroc film.

Earl
04-08-2013, 07:38 PM
FYI, apparently Kodak has discontinued the last Super 8 color reversal film they used to make. It was Kodachrome 100D (about half as fast as you wanted for a Cineroc, you had to have it push-processed), but it worked. That is gone now.

All that is left is color negative film. The Vision3 200T is the right speed but it is tungsten balanced and negative film of course. Plus having a roll of negative film transferred to DVD or whatever format costs around $125.

So ends the ability to directly project a "modern" Cineroc film.

Well, dang. Thanks for the heads up. Seems like I was over at the Kodak website for 8mm film products not that long ago and didn't see any mention then. Must have been longer ago than I thought.

I have one full roll on hand that I was going to be using for my Cineroc 'ground checkout' film tests before I actually flew it (just to make sure the camera was working ok and that my home film loading work was satisfactory). That would still leave enough on the roll for a couple of flights, but I just found a source that had two rolls left and bought those. So, that should give me plenty for all the Cineroc flights I'd want to make, which are probably only 3-4 or so at most.

But thanks for the heads up.....good timing.

Earl

kurtschachner
04-08-2013, 08:47 PM
It's kinda sad, the demise of film. This is it for any Kodak color reversal films. First it was Kodachrome of course, now Ektachrome. No more slide shows either. They still sell B&W Tri-X reversal film but I can't imagine that has much of a future.

The Tri-X would probably work quite well in a Cineroc. It's the right speed and a nice fine grain.

Still, one wonders who the heck is shooting B&W Super 8 film these days...

A Fish Named Wallyum
04-08-2013, 08:48 PM
Reminds me of vinyl albums, and they made a comeback. :rolleyes:

Earl
04-08-2013, 08:57 PM
It's kinda sad, the demise of film. This is it for any Kodak color reversal films. First it was Kodachrome of course, now Ektachrome. No more slide shows either. They still sell B&W Tri-X reversal film but I can't imagine that has much of a future.

The Tri-X would probably work quite well in a Cineroc. It's exactly the right speed and a nice fine grain.

Still, one wonders what the heck is shooting B&W Super 8 film these days...

Yeah, last year I was looking at the various film stocks and thought about that Tri-X. Might be interesting to try a flight or two on it, just for the heck of it. But yes, trying' to figure just who would be using much of that these days. Films students maybe.....lab or research purposes possibly. There IS something kinda 'fetching' about B&W in certain circumstances, but all-in-all for a Cineroc flight I'd probably be wanting it to be color.

The very first 'video' camera I ever flew though back in the 80s was one of those Fisher-Price Pixelvision cameras, which worked quite well. Shot on audio cassette tapes running at really fast speed through the recorder and was in B&W, with sound. I thought it was pretty neat for it's time....early digital video for rocketry. Just stripped the case off it and mounted it on a special fixture in my modified LOC Mini Viper on three H70s. Then later on a J220 in another booster and at Black Rock (LDRS-X I think it was) on a Vulcan K500. Somewhat grainy digital footage, but was certainly acceptable for it's day.

Earl

kurtschachner
04-08-2013, 08:58 PM
I was actually thinking of flying my Cineroc a few times this summer but I didn't buy any film before it was discontinued. Maybe the Tri-X isn't such a bad idea, but the colors are a pretty integral part of the Cineroc experience. That and the projector :)

I don't know if it is worth $100+ to get negative film transferred to DVD.

CenturiKid
04-10-2013, 08:24 PM
Kurt,

If you decide to fly your Cineroc this summer let me know. I acquired one this last year and am working on my Omega booster to fly it with. Unfortunately, mine is missing the pulley for the film advance and a film cartridge, so it would only be a ground photo opp. I'm launching off a vintage porta-pad (tall orange version) these days so it would be period correct launch shot at least.

If I had film I'd show up to the field in my 74' Saab Sonett to try and get that caught on the flight :). Would be a shame to only have black and white and miss its "mellow yellow"-ness.

I'm also working on finishing my 1st generation Astrocam. I've kept about 40 rolls of 110 film in the freezer and want to try and fly a few while I can still get the film developed.

kurtschachner
04-12-2013, 02:12 PM
I have extra pulleys and film cartridges, you are welcome to borrow them. The pulley can be swapped out camera-to-camera so it's easy to share between flights.

Kurt,

If you decide to fly your Cineroc this summer let me know. I acquired one this last year and am working on my Omega booster to fly it with. Unfortunately, mine is missing the pulley for the film advance and a film cartridge, so it would only be a ground photo opp. I'm launching off a vintage porta-pad (tall orange version) these days so it would be period correct launch shot at least.

If I had film I'd show up to the field in my 74' Saab Sonett to try and get that caught on the flight :). Would be a shame to only have black and white and miss its "mellow yellow"-ness.

I'm also working on finishing my 1st generation Astrocam. I've kept about 40 rolls of 110 film in the freezer and want to try and fly a few while I can still get the film developed.

danfrank
05-24-2013, 01:49 PM
Hi everybody,
I was wondering if there would be any interest for me to load Cineroc Flight Paks with fresh color film for anybody (?) who is still interested in flying their original Estes Cineroc. Basically, what I would do is load the flight pak with fresh color film and send it back to the Cineroc owner, Once the camera is flown, they send the Exposed flight pak back to me where I process the film and then transfer it to video. I would then send the processed film, flight pak, and video file back to the Cineroc owner. I'm thinking all this for $40.
I know I am about 30 years too late for this service, but I was wondering if there would still be any interest?
This would be reversal film, so you can project it if you wanted to. ASA 200 and Daylight balanced, fresh stock, I found a source for it in Europe.
By the way, I work at a film lab...
Daniel

kurtschachner
05-24-2013, 09:54 PM
Hey Daniel, how are you doing? Are you still at Yale? Your offer is not a bad one, although I don't mind loading my own cartridges. If you are still there, does Yale transfer negative film to DVD?

Hi everybody,
I was wondering if there would be any interest for me to load Cineroc Flight Paks with fresh color film for anybody (?) who is still interested in flying their original Estes Cineroc. Basically, what I would do is load the flight pak with fresh color film and send it back to the Cineroc owner, Once the camera is flown, they send the Exposed flight pak back to me where I process the film and then transfer it to video. I would then send the processed film, flight pak, and video file back to the Cineroc owner. I'm thinking all this for $40.
I know I am about 30 years too late for this service, but I was wondering if there would still be any interest?
This would be reversal film, so you can project it if you wanted to. ASA 200 and Daylight balanced, fresh stock, I found a source for it in Europe.
By the way, I work at a film lab...
Daniel

danfrank
05-24-2013, 10:15 PM
Hi Kurt...
Yes, I'm still at Yale. I just processed some of this new 200 Daylight reversal film today and it looks OK. It's grainy but the colors are good. Looks more like the film stocks from the 1970's.
To answer your question, yes, Yale can transfer color negative film to DVD or digital file (AVI or Quicktime) using a Rank Telecine (film scanner) so the results are good. Unfortunately, we don't process color negative film at this time so we would have to receive it already processed.
The one nice thing about color negative film is the exposure latitude it has. It can be overexposed or underexposed by up to 3 stops and still come out great. No more overblown or underexposed Cineroc flights! The grain should be a lot less for the color negative film, also.
Daniel

Earl
05-24-2013, 10:35 PM
Hi everybody,
I was wondering if there would be any interest for me to load Cineroc Flight Paks with fresh color film for anybody (?) who is still interested in flying their original Estes Cineroc. Basically, what I would do is load the flight pak with fresh color film and send it back to the Cineroc owner, Once the camera is flown, they send the Exposed flight pak back to me where I process the film and then transfer it to video. I would then send the processed film, flight pak, and video file back to the Cineroc owner. I'm thinking all this for $40.
I know I am about 30 years too late for this service, but I was wondering if there would still be any interest?
This would be reversal film, so you can project it if you wanted to. ASA 200 and Daylight balanced, fresh stock, I found a source for it in Europe.
By the way, I work at a film lab...
Daniel

Daniel-

Thanks for your timely post and offer. I am working on getting a vintage Omega booster vehicle ready to launch my first Cineroc flight, though the way things go with me 'life-wise' currently, it's likely to be a few months yet before I can get around to making an actual flight.

Kurt has been a big help for me on info about Cineroc operations, film loading, developing (I had been looking at Yale and he seconded that choice).

Probably the first film I plan on shooting would be a ground-based, hand held test shot to check operations of the camera itself before I actually subjected it to a flight. I have several rolls of the Kodak 100D film, with the plan to push it a bit for hopefully a good exposure.

I am intrigued by the film stock you have found. Who is it made by? Is just newly released or has it been around for a while? Like Kurt, I don't mind loading my own cartridges, though I have never done ot before. Obviously, I don't have the film stock you mentioned, which does sound very promising and closer to the original ASA 160 stuff used by Estes back in the day.

Bottom line, I may be willing to do a test strip of film through you to check the operation of the camera and see how this film you speak of looks.

Thanks again,

Earl

Earl
05-24-2013, 11:35 PM
Speaking of Cinerocs.....


For those looking to maybe get one, here's a recent ebay listing:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-ESTES-CINEROC-8MM-MODEL-ROCKET-MOVIE-CAMERA-WITH-BOX-AND-FILM-/111081139020?pt=Model_Kit_US&hash=item19dcf3ab4c


Let the bidding begin!

Not my listing nor do I know the lister.

Earl

danfrank
05-25-2013, 12:10 PM
Daniel-

Probably the first film I plan on shooting would be a ground-based, hand held test shot to check operations of the camera itself before I actually subjected it to a flight. I have several rolls of the Kodak 100D film, with the plan to push it a bit for hopefully a good exposure.

I am intrigued by the film stock you have found. Who is it made by? Is just newly released or has it been around for a while?
Thanks again,

Earl

Hi Earl,
The 100D is a great stock to use for the Cineroc if you push it one stop in processing. It has great colors and fine grain. Unfortunately Kodak discontinued it so you are lucky to have some of it left. When Kodak made the anouncement of its demise, they assured everybody that they had a enough of it to meet demand for 6 months; they were out of stock of it within 2 weeks.
The film stock I have is made by Agfa; it's just become available in Super 8 but I don't know how long it's been out in other formats. The colors are nice but it's grainier than the Kodak 100D film. The nice thing about it is that it will work great in the Cineroc.
Daniel

blackshire
05-25-2013, 12:44 PM
Hi Earl,
The 100D is a great stock to use for the Cineroc if you push it one stop in processing. It has great colors and fine grain. Unfortunately Kodak discontinued it so you are lucky to have some of it left. When Kodak made the anouncement of its demise, they assured everybody that they had a enough of it to meet demand for 6 months; they were out of stock of it within 2 weeks.
The film stock I have is made by Agfa; it's just become available in Super 8 but I don't know how long it's been out in other formats. The colors are nice but it's grainier than the Kodak 100D film. The nice thing about it is that it will work great in the Cineroc.
DanielAnother thought, Daniel--have you considered offering a similar service (film holder loading, developing, and still video frame recording) for Camroc owners? I don't have a Cineroc or a Camroc, but significant numbers of both are still around (it might even be possible to duplicate the Camroc's parts in polyurethane resin, cemented together with polyurethane cement or epoxy cement). Also:

According to what I've read in several articles, film will probably never go away completely. There are certain lighting and artistic effects which, while possible with digital cameras, are much easier to do with film. The ubiquitous 35 mm film (in rolls as well as in single-use box cameras) will likely be the de facto "standard" film type, with others (such as larger-frame 127 film for twin-lens reflex cameras) remaining available by special order. Even polaroid-type instant-developing film seems to have found its niche, with one overseas firm planning new production for use in single-use box cameras. I don't think film will go the way of the buggy whip--but even if it does, buggy whips are still made, albeit in smaller quantities than they were a century ago... :-) In addition:

I think you could make some significant money with these and other media conversion services--for example: A late friend of mine, Gary Moore, made good if not princely sums by transferring people's 8 mm and 16 mm films to VHS video tape (he made a five-bladed shutter for one [or both--it was a long time ago] of his projectors, so that the tape's video wouldn't have the "wandering dark line" that is caused by the film frame rate vs. the TV scan rate). He also transferred people's old reel-to-reel, phonograph, and even wire-recorder audio recordings onto cassette tapes--and it was all by referrals by word-of-mouth and from the "Action Line" column in "The Miami Herald!"

kurtschachner
05-25-2013, 12:58 PM
Whistling in the dark I believe :o

I really did not think Kodak would discontinue all their reversal films as soon as they did either. But it happened. Sure, Kodachrome was a gonner for a lot of reasons, but Ektachrome? I admit to being surprised at that one.

According to what I've read in several articles, film will probably never go away completely. There are lighting and artistic effects which, while possible with digital cameras, are much easier to do with film. The ubiquitous 35 mm film (in rolls as well as in single-use box cameras) will likely be the defacto "standard" film type, with others (such as larger-frame 127 film for twin-lens reflex cameras) remaining available by special order. Even polaroid-type instant-developing film seems to have found its niche, with one overseas firm planning new production for use in single-use box cameras. I don't think film will go the way of the buggy whip--but even if it does, buggy whips are still made, albeit in smaller quantities than they were a century ago... :-)

blackshire
05-25-2013, 01:10 PM
Whistling in the dark I believe :o

I really did not think Kodak would discontinue all their reversal films as soon as they did either. But it happened. Sure, Kodachrome was a gonner for a lot of reasons, but Ektachrome? I admit to being surprised at that one.I don't think so; remember, Kodak isn't the only film company around. Where I once saw yellow Kodak single-use box cameras hanging on pegs, I now see green Fuji box cameras and store-brand box cameras (Fred Meyer, for example) that contain Chinese-made 35 mm film. These cameras include not only simple "point-and-shoots" (with and without built-in flash units), but also panoramic cameras and even clear plastic-encased underwater cameras. Ditto for the rolls of film; the Fuji 35 mm rolls have displaced Kodak's.

kurtschachner
05-25-2013, 01:50 PM
And who buys those? Anyone? The boxes of film at Walgreens have dust on them. Really they do.

The Walgreens near my house has started to advertise on their outdoor sign "We Develop Film". The tech said they get far fewer rolls than a year ago and I predict it won't be long before they stop processing film. Walmart and others send their film out to a central lab, Walgreens is about the only mass merchandiser that does it in-house. That's got to be expensive to maintain for little profit.

Don't get me wrong, I love my Nikon N80 that I bought at a highly inflated price just prior to The Great Decline of Film. But my iPhone takes great pictures too (well at least good enough for most of what I need) and my D200, when I feel like lugging it around, fills in the gaps my iPhone misses. I never carry my beloved N80 anymore.

I don't think so; remember, Kodak isn't the only film company around. Where I once saw yellow Kodak single-use box cameras hanging on pegs, I now see green Fuji box cameras and store-brand box cameras (Fred Meyer, for example) that contain Chinese-made 35 mm film. These cameras include not only simple "point-and-shoots" (with and without built-in flash units), but also panoramic cameras and even clear plastic-encased underwater cameras. Ditto for the rolls of film; the Fuji 35 mm rolls have displaced Kodak's.

kurtschachner
05-25-2013, 02:06 PM
I used to take my N80 to my daughter's events because I had a pretty good selection of lenses for it. But here is how it used to go:

Take pictures
Daughters and friends say "let me see the pictures!"
Say, "well, you can't see them now there's no display on this camera it is film"
Oh, they say, well can I have the memory card so I can put them on my laptop and post them to Facebook?
Well, there is no memory card.
How do you get them off the camera?
Well, you don't "get them off the camera", you have to get the film developed.
Oh, when are you going to do that?
Well, not till the roll is finished. It's a 24/36 exposure roll and we only took 12 pictures.
When will that be?
Hmm, it could be quite a while since I really don't use this camera much...

danfrank
05-25-2013, 07:28 PM
Funny!

I considered myself a film purist for many years, but digital won me over because of its convenience and ease of use. And at heart, I'm lazy... :)




I used to take my N80 to my daughter's events because I had a pretty good selection of lenses for it. But here is how it used to go:

Take pictures
Daughters and friends say "let me see the pictures!"
Say, "well, you can't see them now there's no display on this camera it is film"
Oh, they say, well can I have the memory card so I can put them on my laptop and post them to Facebook?
Well, there is no memory card.
How do you get them off the camera?
Well, you don't "get them off the camera", you have to get the film developed.
Oh, when are you going to do that?
Well, not till the roll is finished. It's a 24/36 exposure roll and we only took 12 pictures.
When will that be?
Hmm, it could be quite a while since I really don't use this camera much...

danfrank
05-25-2013, 07:33 PM
Fuji gave up it's motion picture film division. Kodak sold off their still photography division to Illford, IIRC.
When Kodak gave up Kodachrome, Fuji film became the best, at least for reversal film.


I don't think so; remember, Kodak isn't the only film company around. Where I once saw yellow Kodak single-use box cameras hanging on pegs, I now see green Fuji box cameras and store-brand box cameras (Fred Meyer, for example) that contain Chinese-made 35 mm film. These cameras include not only simple "point-and-shoots" (with and without built-in flash units), but also panoramic cameras and even clear plastic-encased underwater cameras. Ditto for the rolls of film; the Fuji 35 mm rolls have displaced Kodak's.

blackshire
05-26-2013, 06:03 AM
And who buys those? Anyone? The boxes of film at Walgreens have dust on them. Really they do.I bought several of them, which I took to England in 2010, and a former co-worker and I regularly buy them for equine and general photography. Our local Wal-Mart offers 1-hour developing with double prints (two sets of prints) as standard, along with a DVD containing the images and a plastic sleeve "flip portfolio" for the prints. Whenever I'm in there, their photo lab is always busy taking box cameras and rolls of film from customers for developing and giving pouches of developed prints to other customers (I have to wait in line), even though the photo section sells digital cameras along with the box cameras and film...and the box cameras and film don't have dust on them.The Walgreens near my house has started to advertise on their outdoor sign "We Develop Film". The tech said they get far fewer rolls than a year ago and I predict it won't be long before they stop processing film. Walmart and others send their film out to a central lab, Walgreens is about the only mass merchandiser that does it in-house. That's got to be expensive to maintain for little profit.Our Wal-Mart develops film on-site, and they do a brisk business--their photo lab folks are always busy when I'm in there. Ours is one of the large "Super Stores," and perhaps the smaller Wal-Marts send out exposed film for processing.Don't get me wrong, I love my Nikon N80 that I bought at a highly inflated price just prior to The Great Decline of Film. But my iPhone takes great pictures too (well at least good enough for most of what I need) and my D200, when I feel like lugging it around, fills in the gaps my iPhone misses. I never carry my beloved N80 anymore.I'm not against digital cameras (I had one with my previous Gateway 2000 computer), but I think film cameras will not go away completely because of their convenience and low cost. People never have to worry about whether their outdoor box cameras have dead batteries because they don't -have- batteries, and the ones that do have built-in flash units have battery storage lives measured in years (I've never bought one that didn't work, even after I had it for years); the film itself lasts indefinitely if the camera is stored (like black powder rocket motors) in a cool, dry place. I've had 20 year-old exposed 127 color film developed, and the prints came out just fine.

Earl
05-12-2014, 04:39 PM
Well, it's taken a couple years amongst other projects to finally finish the vintage Estes Omega two stage booster for my Cineroc camera, but it's finally done (about six weeks ago actually).

Pretty straightforward build as these go, but I had concerns as to whether the vintage decals (at least 34 years old...maybe a few years older than that) would hold up ok. They did. I think the fin decals really make this kit stand out, and Mike Dorffler did a great job in designing the kit and decor.

Next step will be to reload some film into a couple of the Cineroc film cassettes I have and do some tests. First actual film test with the camera will be ground based 'hand-held' stuff to see how the camera works (and to make sure it works at all). THEN, if all goes well with that film test, I'll actually fly the bird. Probably only as a one-stager right now because my field size is not all that large. But I definitely want to eventually do the 'standard' two stage Omega flight.

Currently however I'm facing ruptured disc surgery in my back in about a week or so. Been down with it for about six weeks already (never been down this long in my life) and it appears surgery is gonna be the only fix. It's a "Whopper" of a herniation, so said my neurosurgeon. I don't know if that's better or worse than a "Quarter Pounder", but it looked pretty massive on the MRI. :(

Earl

K'Tesh
05-12-2014, 05:13 PM
Nice Job Earl!

I'm about one build away from my 2nd attempt at an Omega. My first one suffered from runs in the thin CA sealing the fin's papered edges. I've now got a new method for sealing the edges which prevents runs. I'm now "squeegeeing" the CA on the edge of the fin rather than trying to control the flow by "dripping" it on.

Hope your back is back in shape soon!

God Bless!
Jim

Royatl
05-12-2014, 05:48 PM
I thought about repairing mine (replacing battery mount is all it needs) or modifying it to hold an 808 board and battery (might still do that to my Oracle).

But basically I don't want to go to the trouble of fooling with film.

Earl
05-12-2014, 05:59 PM
I thought about repairing mine (replacing battery mount is all it needs) or modifying it to hold an 808 board and battery (might still do that to my Oracle).

But basically I don't want to go to the trouble of fooling with film.

Yeah, if it were not for the 'I always wanted to do this way back when but could not afford it' factor I would probably not be attempting this myself. But, I'm hoping to eventually log one or two true-blue Cineroc flights with decent film results so I can feel like I've 'lived the dream', even though it is - now days - a difficult way to obtain on-board footage. Geez, I was flying video cameras 25 years ago.

But, a dream is a dream, and there is fun and challenge in trying to make this 40 plus year old technology work one more time. I just hope I don't 'splat' a Cineroc all over the field in some horrible nighhmare prang. :o

Earl

blackshire
05-13-2014, 07:46 AM
If I wouldn't get put in a cage for getting caught doing it, I would happily mail you some of my morphine pills, as I know that that kind of back pain can lead to suicide just to make it stop (a disabled Vietnam veteran friend of mine now gets his morphine pills [the same 15 mg extended release tablets that I take] mailed to him...kind of like how we can't mail motors anymore without special arrangements...). I hope your Cineroc recovery walks are short!Well, it's taken a couple years amongst other projects to finally finish the vintage Estes Omega two stage booster for my Cineroc camera, but it's finally done (about six weeks ago actually).

Pretty straightforward build as these go, but I had concerns as to whether the vintage decals (at least 34 years old...maybe a few years older than that) would hold up ok. They did. I think the fin decals really make this kit stand out, and Mike Dorffler did a great job in designing the kit and decor.

Next step will be to reload some film into a couple of the Cineroc film cassettes I have and do some tests. First actual film test with the camera will be ground based 'hand-held' stuff to see how the camera works (and to make sure it works at all). THEN, if all goes well with that film test, I'll actually fly the bird. Probably only as a one-stager right now because my field size is not all that large. But I definitely want to eventually do the 'standard' two stage Omega flight.

Currently however I'm facing ruptured disc surgery in my back in about a week or so. Been down with it for about six weeks already (never been down this long in my life) and it appears surgery is gonna be the only fix. It's a "Whopper" of a herniation, so said my neurosurgeon. I don't know if that's better or worse than a "Quarter Pounder", but it looked pretty massive on the MRI. :(

Earl

mrhemi1971
05-13-2014, 07:51 PM
I would just hate to think about having a CATO happen, or bad recovery, or ANY problems with an original Cineroc. I'm building my Semroc Omega with an HD keychain camera that has a lens extension so I can mount it like an original cineroc, but has 1080 HD! all the fun of an original, but if it has a problem, it's easily replaceable. You cant replace a cineroc if it gets hurt!

Earl
05-13-2014, 11:05 PM
I would just hate to think about having a CATO happen, or bad recovery, or ANY problems with an original Cineroc. I'm building my Semroc Omega with an HD keychain camera that has a lens extension so I can mount it like an original cineroc, but has 1080 HD! all the fun of an original, but if it has a problem, it's easily replaceable. You cant replace a cineroc if it gets hurt!

I'd hate to loose a Cineroc too, but my reason for getting one (and a backup one ;) ) was so that I could actually fly it, rather than just have it sit on a shelf or in a box. And of course, there is no real increased risk of loosing a Cineroc on a given flight compared to flying any other rocket of similar size and weight.

But my reason for acquiring was to fly, regardless of any possibility of loss. Just like any flight, we run the risk of loss from a cato, recovery system snafu, or having it thermal away (or run over by an overly anxious kid on a bicycle trying to recover the rocket...actually had that happen with one of my rockets one time!).

But like most any 'first' flight of a somewhat complicated or pricey rocket, I'll breath a little easier when I see it safely touch down under an intact chute after a nominal flight. :o


Earl

K'Tesh
05-14-2014, 12:50 AM
I'm still trying to get Landru to print up a clone of the original's exterior (the Semroc version is slightly larger than the actual camera). We get that, then we can launch 808's with an "expendable" camera. I'm still looking for my #2 (to replace the one that was killed by the owner's dog).

blackshire
05-14-2014, 06:25 AM
I'm still trying to get Landru to print up a clone of the original's exterior (the Semroc version is slightly larger than the actual camera). We get that, then we can launch 808's with an "expendable" camera. I'm still looking for my #2 (to replace the one that was killed by the owner's dog).A successful flight of it sounds like a perfect reason--even if it doesn't occur during the Red Hour--to have a...*FESTIVAL*!!!

luke strawwalker
05-14-2014, 08:08 AM
My buddy Dave Montgomery lost his Cineroc on a cluster flight out at Johnson Space Center... he was pretty heartbroken about it...

It's yours and you can fly it if you want to, but basically there ARE some things which one has to choose to fly and realize that every time they push that button they may well never see it again...

That's why replaceable clones are so attractive... even if they're not precisely exactly the same in form or function... If something happens it's much less of an "oh sh!t" moment...

Later! OL JR :)

K'Tesh
05-14-2014, 10:37 AM
That's why replaceable clones are so attractive... even if they're not precisely exactly the same in form or function... If something happens it's much less of an "oh sh!t" moment...

AMEN!!!

Earl
05-14-2014, 12:37 PM
My buddy Dave Montgomery lost his Cineroc on a cluster flight out at Johnson Space Center... he was pretty heartbroken about it...

It's yours and you can fly it if you want to, but basically there ARE some things which one has to choose to fly and realize that every time they push that button they may well never see it again...

That's why replaceable clones are so attractive... even if they're not precisely exactly the same in form or function... If something happens it's much less of an "oh sh!t" moment...

Later! OL JR :)

If there were some 'true' clones of a Cineroc I *might* consider it, but really when it comes to something like this, you really got to fly the real thing to replicate the full Cineroc film experience. I've flown high power motors that cost MUCH more than this Cineroc did (and the vintage Omega two stage kit wasn't exactly cheap either).

And Cinerocs, while they don't grow on trees, are not exactly rare either. Thousands and thousand were produced over the years between 1970 and 76, though I'm sure many of them have been lost certainly. But, I'd rather take the risk and fly it than to just have it sit on the shelf. That to me is the fun of building and flying these kits and gadgets from way back in the day that I could not afford at the time. Now that I can do it, I'm gonna! :)

Earl

luke strawwalker
05-14-2014, 03:07 PM
If there were some 'true' clones of a Cineroc I *might* consider it, but really when it comes to something like this, you really got to fly the real thing to replicate the full Cineroc film experience. I've flown high power motors that cost MUCH more than this Cineroc did (and the vintage Omega two stage kit wasn't exactly cheap either).

And Cinerocs, while they don't grow on trees, are not exactly rare either. Thousands and thousand were produced over the years between 1970 and 76, though I'm sure many of them have been lost certainly. But, I'd rather take the risk and fly it than to just have it sit on the shelf. That to me is the fun of building and flying these kits and gadgets from way back in the day that I could not afford at the time. Now that I can do it, I'm gonna! :)

Earl

Well, it's YOUR property so of course you can do with it as you please... heck you can light it on fire with a gallon of gas if you wanted to, since it IS yours...

Some folks hoard them and floor their closets with them... some folks fly them and lose them... no right or wrong about it... their personal property, their choice...

Later! OL JR :)

danfrank
05-18-2014, 02:23 AM
My buddy Dave Montgomery lost his Cineroc on a cluster flight out at Johnson Space Center... he was pretty heartbroken about it...

It's yours and you can fly it if you want to, but basically there ARE some things which one has to choose to fly and realize that every time they push that button they may well never see it again...

Later! OL JR :)


I've lost 3 Cinerocs over the years... One at JSC, one at Sylvan Rodriguez park ( I was really bummed about that one because it was a 2 stage "F" flight; the upper stage motor being a Rocketflite F50 Silver Streak), and one that crashed at Lucerne Dry Lake with one of Jerry's motors (Firestarter). 2 of them were for stupid oversights on my part that could have been avoided, but oh well... (Actually, all 3 of them, if I hadn't used one of Jerry's motors!)
And yes, you have to go into it thinking that things might not turn out so well.

I did get my Level 1 HP certification with a rocket that had a Cineroc on top!


Daniel