Avery Self-Adhesive Laminating sheets

[jspitza]

Hello all:
Anyone try to use these for laminating your fins as opposed to paper? The consistancy is a little thicker than packing tape and seems to bond well with balsawood. My only concern is when creating fillets, white or yellow glues may not adhere well to such a slick surface (before priming). Take care, Jeff

[jharding58]

Have you tried the Avery full page self adhesive label? I use them on tube wraps and the rare occasion that I laminate fins - stick and cut to the edge of the balsa part.

[jspitza]

Have you tried the Avery full page self adhesive label? I use them on tube wraps and the rare occasion that I laminate fins - stick and cut to the edge of the balsa part.
Sure have! I thought they were a little on the thick side and found them to be a little funky when sealing\final sanding before priming. I had the edges shred\shaved off.

[chrism]

Hello all:
Anyone try to use these for laminating your fins as opposed to paper? The consistancy is a little thicker than packing tape and seems to bond well with balsawood. My only concern is when creating fillets, white or yellow glues may not adhere well to such a slick surface (before priming). Take care, Jeff

I have used the Office Max equivalent full sheet labels on my Quest Full Betty and Custom M320. I made sure that I glued the edges down so that the labels would not pull up. They sure saved a lot of time sealing and sanding the fins and they did not add that much weight.

[jspitza]

Thanks Chrism:
I had much better luck using the house brand over Avery as these were thinner and absorbed the glue better. I think I made a big mistake in buying these laminate labels due to poor glue adhesion. I'll see how the fillets turn out.

[dyaugo]

I remember someone mentioning that using the sheets actually work well. I might try card stock paper...a bit thicker, but definitely will add more strength!

[CPMcGraw]

I've used OfficeMax, OfficeDepot, and 3M full-sheet labels with good results. The paper does need to be sealed around the edges, however. Use thin CA to wick around the non-root edges, inward to about 1/8 or 3/16 inch. Don't get the CA in the root area, as it will fill the grain and not allow the regular glue (white or yellow aliphatic resins) to 'grab hold' properly.

I like to use a stiff "T-bar" aluminum sanding surface to work the edges with after the CA hardens. Just a few swipes is usually enough. 220-grit paper works well for me...

[jspitza]

Thanks guys. Yes, I've found that CA was really hard to sand and stopped using it but this was due to using to fine a grit. I'm unhappy to report that my wonderful fin lamination has peeled right off the blasted fin with a coat of primer and a coat of rustolium paint! This is not the stuff to use and I'll go back to Avery and learn the CA sanding method. BTW the titebond molding trim glue peeled right off the surface too. Uhg. Anyone need 48 sheets of laminate paper :)

[tbzep]

Thanks guys. Yes, I've found that CA was really hard to sand and stopped using it but this was due to using to fine a grit. I'm unhappy to report that my wonderful fin lamination has peeled right off the blasted fin with a coat of primer and a coat of rustolium paint! This is not the stuff to use and I'll go back to Avery and learn the CA sanding method. BTW the titebond molding trim glue peeled right off the surface too. Uhg. Anyone need 48 sheets of laminate paper :)

I had trouble with self stick labels bubbling up after a beautiful finish was exposed to the sun, so I abandoned it. Recently I've used butcher paper and Elmer's, though I'm sure whatever your favorite white or yellow glue will do just fine.

[jspitza]

I remember someone mentioning that using the sheets actually work well. I might try card stock paper...a bit thicker, but definitely will add more strength!
I've thrown test el chepo rockets onto concrete after paper lamination and it did not even phase the fin. This and the elimination of fin prep. filling, sanding ect is why I'm now a paper convert.

[jspitza]

I had trouble with self stick labels bubbling up after a beautiful finish was exposed to the sun, so I abandoned it. Recently I've used butcher paper and Elmer's, though I'm sure whatever your favorite white or yellow glue will do just fine.
Maybe it was a brand thing. Some folks claim that no bubbles happened but I'm a little more suspicious and your case confirms it! I hope Avery uses good materials.

[luke strawwalker]

Well, I know lots of folks have had good luck and swear by the label paper thing, but IMHO the adhesive used on the labels just isn't made for that job-- it's not a 'permanent' adhesive or intended for a strong permanent bond. In addition, having to go around the edges with CA and then sand that down sorta, IMHO, defeats the purpose... while not as much work as filling/sanding the fins to eliminate the balsa grain, it's still more needless work than other methods.

I prefer to use a VERY thin, uniform layer of white glue and regular printer paper or cardstock to reinforce the fin. White glue is an EXCELLENT and permanent adhesive for paper to wood, and in very thin layers retains its strength or is even stronger than in thick layers. The materials are very inexpensive, easily obtainable, and produce EXCELLENT results. In addition, so long as the fins have a straight leading edge (or composed of straight line segments in the case of compound fin shapes) the fin can be papered with the paper in one contiguous layer over the leading edge of the fin, eliminating the possibility of it delaminating due to extreme airspeeds of the slipstream working on the edges of the paper where they join the fin. This makes a truly seamless and very smooth and slick installation, without the need for sealing or locking down the edges with CA or other adhesives and then subsequently having to sand and otherwise prepare the surface where the CA was applied.

Of course, whatever works for you, by all means use it. But I think there are a lot of advantages to the plain old white glue n paper/cardstock method...

Later! OL JR :)

[PaulK]

The problem I've had with label paper and printer paper is I can't seem to get the fins as glass smooth as if I simply use aerogloss (or wood filler). I still paper when I want the strength, but not when I want the look. I probably just need more practice.

[Doug Sams]

I still paper when I want the strength, but not when I want the look. I probably just need more practice.A couple of thoughts on papering. I don't do it often, but here's what I've learned. You need to use a fair amount of glue to get complete coverage, and you end up with some excess to be wiped away. Booking: Wall-paper hangers do similar, and it's good practice. Once the paper, wet with glue, has been applied to the fin, peel it back and re-apply it. I don't understand all the physical properties which come into play, but that imparts a definite bonding enhancement.

Doug...my 2 cents...

.

[VonMises]

Good to know.

[tbzep]

Has anyone tried Coverite?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0093p?&C=QAA

or Top Flight MonoKote?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0094P?&N=N&F=COVQ0711&L=TOPQ0224&C=QAATOP&P=0&S=

It's a heat shrink plastic film with heat activated adhesive. Primarily used on RC Aircraft.

I haven't tried it yet, but you guys got me thinking...
You forgot my favorite for R/C planes, Ultracote. (Also called Oracover if it comes from the original Hobby Lobby).

[Doug Sams]

Has anyone tried Coverite?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0093p?&C=QAA

or Top Flight MonoKote?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0094P?&N=N&F=COVQ0711&L=TOPQ0224&C=QAATOP&P=0&S=

I haven't done any heat shrink coverings, but frequently use trim (ie, peel-n-stick) monokote to decorate rockets or sometimes cover a fin.

Here, on the left, the blue and metallic are both trim kote.

http://www.doug79.com/midget552/both1-3p.jpg

Adding a bit of trim kote is much faster than sanding, masking and painting the second color.

In my use, I've only ever applied it over a painted surface. Not sure how it would adhere to bare wood.

Doug

.

[Bill]

Booking: Wall-paper hangers do similar, and it's good practice. Once the paper, wet with glue, has been applied to the fin, peel it back and re-apply it. I don't understand all the physical properties which come into play, but that imparts a definite bonding enhancement.



...double glue joint...


Bill

[luke strawwalker]

Has anyone tried Coverite?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0093p?&C=QAA

or Top Flight MonoKote?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0094P?&N=N&F=COVQ0711&L=TOPQ0224&C=QAATOP&P=0&S=

It's a heat shrink plastic film with heat activated adhesive. Primarily used on RC Aircraft.

I haven't tried it yet, but you guys got me thinking...

I've heard of people using it, but don't see it very often... not sure why... cost, or what... Plus I think that balsa grain tends to show through it if it's thin and applied over a broad surface...

Agree trim monokote (self stick) is the cat's meow... :)

Later! OL JR :)

[nukemmcssret]

Has anyone tried Coverite?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0093p?&C=QAA

or Top Flight MonoKote?:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/WTI0094P?&N=N&F=COVQ0711&L=TOPQ0224&C=QAATOP&P=0&S=

It's a heat shrink plastic film with heat activated adhesive. Primarily used on RC Aircraft.

I haven't tried it yet, but you guys got me thinking...

I found this description of the film at tower hobbies. Sounds Like the surface would have to be ultra smooth before applying. The stuff seeks all holes and curves. Here it is
21st Century Film is a Patented, Flexible High-Gloss Polyester that is
Inexpensive, Easy, Clean and Quick to Use. This is a Multi-Temperature Film.
It Will Not Burn Until Temperature Exceeds 400°F and
Yet Still Adheres Using Temperatures Under 200°F.

FEATURES: Super Strong with a Tensile Strength of 25,000 psi (pounds per
square inch)
Lightweight at Only .25 ounces per square foot
Dry Adhesive is Activated When Heat Is Applied
Shrinks To A Drum-Tight Finish As It Cools
Molds Crease-Free Around Compound Curves and Into Corners
High Gloss Finish, Waterproof, Fuelproof (Glow Fuel, Gasoline, Smoke)
Stronger and Lighter Than Traditional Silk and Dope Coverings
May Be Cleaned with Glass Cleaner or MonoKote Cleaner/Polish

[luke strawwalker]

I found this description of the film at tower hobbies. Sounds Like the surface would have to be ultra smooth before applying. The stuff seeks all holes and curves. Here it is
21st Century Film is a Patented, Flexible High-Gloss Polyester that is
Inexpensive, Easy, Clean and Quick to Use. This is a Multi-Temperature Film.
It Will Not Burn Until Temperature Exceeds 400°F and
Yet Still Adheres Using Temperatures Under 200°F.

FEATURES: Super Strong with a Tensile Strength of 25,000 psi (pounds per
square inch)
Lightweight at Only .25 ounces per square foot
Dry Adhesive is Activated When Heat Is Applied
Shrinks To A Drum-Tight Finish As It Cools
Molds Crease-Free Around Compound Curves and Into Corners
High Gloss Finish, Waterproof, Fuelproof (Glow Fuel, Gasoline, Smoke)
Stronger and Lighter Than Traditional Silk and Dope Coverings
May Be Cleaned with Glass Cleaner or MonoKote Cleaner/Polish

I wonder... does the film shrinking and tightening as it cools tend to warp thin balsa fins (larger ones would be especially at risk). I just wonder if that's an issue with shrink film coverings and maybe the reason it isn't used more in rocketry?? In model airplane use, the wing spars and stuff would actually strengthen from the shrinkage, making a stressed-skin type structure...

Later! OL JR :)

[Doug Sams]

...double glue joint...
Great example!

Doug

.

[Doug Sams]

In model airplane use, the wing spars and stuff would actually strengthen from the shrinkage, making a stressed-skin type structure... That's pretty much how I see it. The few airplanes I've seen built this way are just as you describe - shrink wrap over the balsa wing structures (in place of tissue), and the plastic seems to give the thing lots of strength.

Doug

.

[mwtoelle]

MonoKote does not work very well on inside corners or compound curves. There is a one page article on page 10 (page 12 in the PDF) in the January 1969 issue of Model Rocketry Magazine. I am surprised that Japanese Tissue/silkspan and dope method for strengthening fins does not pop up every so often.

[Daddyisabar]

I have always had good luck with the Avery lable paper. It can wrinkle a bit if it gets too wet with glue or paint but mine has always dried back to a flat state. With a little CA all of my edges have stayed down nicely. Never have had it come loose from the balsa. Even stayed on after a crash with the balsa crushed underneath. Works great with squishy, weak balsa, just make sure you press it down nice and tight and bang! . . . instant poor man's plywood. I can only dream of Baltic Birch on my budget.

A bulk box of 100 sheets goes a long way, so for a light, easy, strong, and cheap system it is hard to beat. It will absorb a little more primer on the first spray but I have had no trouble lightly sanding it. It will take a bit more paint and number of coats to get a smooth finish. For really high end finishes it won't work, nor is it the best to wrap around edges, the other paper/glue combos work better for that. The 3M stuff was on sale so I will try a box of that, you even get another 25 sheets!

[VonMises]

Great info here.

[luke strawwalker]

Generally, I ditch the balsa for birch plywood. The CP doesn't change, but the CG may need some help. It's a good idea to slot the airframe and add tabs.

Don't get me wrong, lite-ply and basswood have their place, but then again, for a lot of things they're overkill... All depends on what you're trying to do.

Best thing I've seen done with plywood is making body tubes... :)

Later! OL JR :)

[VonMises]

Agree

[tbzep]

But luke, I'm all about overkill. :)
Have you met GH? He is too. :rolleyes: :p

[VonMises]

not yet