Will Estes bring back the V2 and other maxi brutes?

[UPscaler]

With the return of NCR and the re-release of the Saturn V, I see only one thing missing, and that's the maxi brute collection. Do you guys think they'll bring back the V2 and Honest John?

I hope so...


Perhaps the Pershing as well...not a big fan of the Pershing though.





Braden

[Ltvscout]

Perhaps the Pershing as well...not a big fan of the Pershing though.

What?!?!? Sacrilege!

:D

[ghrocketman]

The Pershing is the ONLY one that has a need existing for a bring-back.

The Honest John and V2 have been re-issued numerous times.
The K-29 Saturn 1B has never been re-issued since it's discontinuance at the end of 1977, but the Semroc kit is a virtual clone.

In addition to the Pershing 1A, I would like to see them issue a new Maxi-Brute Pershing II as well as a Genie nuclear air-to-air rocket.

[gpoehlein]

Y'know what would be sweet - a Maxi-Brute Gemini Titan! Maybe 2.6" diameter. Although painting it (all that silver) would be really fun. Haven't run any sims, but you could probably launch such a beast on a pair of D12s or the new E12s. Wouldn't THAT be cool? :D

For that matter, a Maxi-Brute version of the Mercury Redstone or Mercury Atlas would be really cool as well. I'd certainly save my pennies to buy either one!

Greg

[Shreadvector]

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes/est2111/est2111.htm



Y'know what would be sweet - a Maxi-Brute Gemini Titan! Maybe 2.6" diameter. Although painting it (all that silver) would be really fun. Haven't run any sims, but you could probably launch such a beast on a pair of D12s or the new E12s. Wouldn't THAT be cool? :D

For that matter, a Maxi-Brute version of the Mercury Redstone or Mercury Atlas would be really cool as well. I'd certainly save my pennies to buy either one!

Greg

[Daddyisabar]

With Estes teamed up with Aerotech and in the mid power business they just might spring for a new mold on that lovely 2 piece Pershing Nose cone. Maybe in another 2 years or so seeing a Maxi Brute Pershing 1A on the Hobby Lobby shelf will be more than just seeing clouds in my coffee. :)

[jeffyjeep]

With the return of NCR and the re-release of the Saturn V, I see only one thing missing, and that's the maxi brute collection. Do you guys think they'll bring back the V2 and Honest John?

I hope so...


Perhaps the Pershing as well...not a big fan of the Pershing though.





Braden
NOT A FAN OF THE PERSHING!!?? ARE YOU HIGH!!?? :eek: ;)

[Jerry Irvine]

There is a certain nostalgia for the V-2, but as a kit or as a model rocket it is pretty low on the list of rockets that should be scaled. It is dynamically unstable since it was a guided rocket, and it offers manufacturing and assembly challenges.

How about a larger Up Aerospace rocket and some simpler sounding rockets and proposed shuttle replacements.

Jerry

ARE YOU HIGH!!?? :eek: ;)Let me check . . . .

[Doug Sams]

NOT A FAN OF THE PERSHING!!?? ARE YOU HIGH!!?? :eek: ;)Neither am I. And, no, but it sounds appealing :)

Seriously, when I look at scale models, I'm mostly a fan of the holy grails: Saturn 1B, Saturn V and Merc-Redstone. Even with these, in the case of the Saturn V, the need to add significant nose weight is a bit of a turn off. But I still like it ('cause o' the holy grail thing...).

After that, I find all the changes needed to make many of them flight worthy to be turn offs. For example, despite having a Merc-Atlas in the build pile, I detest the fin unit that must be affixed to make it fly.

I tend to favor the ones that are more model-rocket-like in nature, such as the HoJo. Its fins are big enough that it can fly without the encumbrances listed above.

As for the Pershing, with its almost vestigial fins, it just looks too odd for my interests.

I know that's picky, but I'm sure there are others who think sorta this way, too. Otherwise, the kit vendors would be selling a lot more scale kits, right?

Of course, the demands of exacting details are another factor in the acceptance of scale models, but for me, that's not as compelling. I just think it's gotta look "right" before I'm intersted. And the Pershing just don't look right ;)

Seriously, in the case of some of these, if I could figure out how to build them without the clunky fin units, I'd be on it. The Gemini-Titan is a good example. (But I'm not ready to add active stabilization to model rockets ;))

Doug

.

[Jerry Irvine]

Estes already has large HJ NC designs and could size to 3" just as easily. It probably ships better anyway.

29mm/24mm
or "USR Interchange"
54mm/38mm/29mm/24mm/3x24mm/7x18mm

Jerry

[UPscaler]

NOT A FAN OF THE PERSHING!!?? ARE YOU HIGH!!?? :eek: ;)
Sorry sir, I just think it's weird looking! I don't think so...but there are an awful lot of sharpies laying around.

Jerry, you make a very valid point about the generally unstable design of the V2, but that doesn't make it look less cool ;)

Maybe we should send in a wish list...

Maxi:
RedStone
Mercury Little Joe
Black Brandt II


Braden

[Mark II]

Sorry sir, I just think it's weird looking! I don't think so...but there are an awful lot of sharpies laying around.
BradenYou'll put your eye out!

I like Jerry's suggestion. Hey, how about a full-scale Super Loki Dart?

Also, how about kits of some present-day LVs? Delta, Atlas V, Proton, Ariane, etc.? It was exciting in the 60s to be able to build a flying scale model of a rocket that was currently pioneering space exploration. Well, we can still build flying scale models of rockets that were pioneers of space exploration...in the 1960s. I love that we can still do that, but somehow it isn't quite the same experience now as it was back then. Perhaps part of the reason that current launch vehicles don't inspire us as much is because we know so little about them.

[Doug Sams]

Also, how about kits of some present-day LVs? Delta, Atlas V, Proton, Ariane, etc.? For the Delta, Proton and Ariane, with their clusters of outboards, the CP will tend to be farther aft. You might could get them stable without needing to add any fins. Doug .

Ariane3
http://papermodels.net/catalog/images/Ariane3.jpg


Proton
http://www.thespacereview.com/archive/1341a.jpg


Delta2
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/90856main_deltaII.jpg

.

[UPscaler]

I think that would be cool too, Mark. I'd like to build a Maxi Delta II. There is this option...


http://www.delta-iv-rockets.com/





Braden

[ghrocketman]

Don's distraction sounds better than any of the Maxi-Brutes.

[Jerry Irvine]

What finned stability techniques do you like for finless scale rockets?

Jerry

[MarkB.]

Actually, I built a fin-less BT-55 Delta II using the Semroc nose and it flew just fine on a calm day. It has nine strap-on BT-5 boosters. My working theory is that the boosters act as fins with cylindrical cross-sections. Alternatively, there's always base drag. I was careful about giving it enough nose weight, but as I said, it flys fine on a C6-3.

I have a fin-less Proton project ready to go as soon as Carl gets the Nose Cone Designer to be the Nose Cone Seller list. Same with a Shenzhou although it does have vestigial fins like a Soyuz.

As for Maxi-Brutes, I'd like to see:

1) 1/39 scale Soyuz (1 inch = 1 meter) or a 1/64th Soyuz like we scratchbuild or buy from Sandman.

2) The 1/19 V-2 - or if nothing else, the 1/24 version - yes, they need nose weight, so what? If you get it right, they fly great.

3) Saturn V

4) Pershing II

5) Black Brant Vc

6) Orion

7) A Terrier booster for 5 and 6

8) Boren's big Nike Hercules


1, 2 and 3 are historical necessities, you cannot discuss human space flight without these three rockets. Ergo, they should be Maxi-Brutes. 4 and 8 are just cool no matter what. And 5, 6 and 7 would let us build something interesting and timely.

My guess is anything other than the Saturn V, or maybe the small V-2, has a snowball's chance . . . .

[Jerry Irvine]

Here are some configuration drawings for SLS the fictional proposed Shuttle and Saturn replacement.

Jerry

[MarkB.]

Jerry,

Since you seem to be asking, what needs to be developed is a removable clear fin unit not unlike the Estes unit for the Titan-Gemini. Ideally, there would be at least BT-60 and -80 units and BT-70, Series 20 and BT-101 would be cool. It would be sold separately so that scratch-builders could use it as needed and have replacements available.

Two pieces: an opaque section 1/2 inch in depth that would be glued to the inside of a body tube and the clear cruciform fin unit itself that would click into place with a 45 degree rotation. It would be removed for display or used on another rocket with separately availible opaque sections.

Is clear plastic brittle? Yes. So be sure and market replacement fin cans, too.

I can imagine a Polaris, Poseidon and Trident build . . . .

[jharding58]

Pooh. Let me know when you man up to build a Bloodhound,

[UPscaler]

Jerry,

Since you seem to be asking, what needs to be developed is a removable clear fin unit not unlike the Estes unit for the Titan-Gemini. Ideally, there would be at least BT-60 and -80 units and BT-70, Series 20 and BT-101 would be cool. It would be sold separately so that scratch-builders could use it as needed and have replacements available.

Two pieces: an opaque section 1/2 inch in depth that would be glued to the inside of a body tube and the clear cruciform fin unit itself that would click into place with a 45 degree rotation. It would be removed for display or used on another rocket with separately availible opaque sections.

Is clear plastic brittle? Yes. So be sure and market replacement fin cans, too.

I can imagine a Polaris, Poseidon and Trident build . . . .
Why use clear plastic when there is lexan?

I guess it'd be kind heavy...


Braden

[mwtoelle]

Why use clear plastic when there is lexan?

I guess it'd be kind heavy...


Braden
One word: Twist-o-flex. IOW, in the applications that I have seen lexan used were too flexible and flimsy. However, most transparent plastics are more brittle than an opaque item molded in the same plastic. YMMV.

[Initiator001]

The Tower Hobbies website has a picture of the 'new' Estes V-2 model:

http://pics.towerhobbies.com/imagel/e/lestt3228.jpg

No dimensional information is provided. :(

[hcmbanjo]

I couldn't pull up the page with that address. I got a "Forbidden message."
After some searching, I've attached the picture.

[jharding58]

Catalogue states "late March".

[IanCurtis]

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBVLF&P=7

With a list price of $24.99, hard to believe that it is the maxi-brute version.

[jeffyjeep]

Although there's no features in the photo to determine scale, my guess is that it's the 1:24 scale--simply judging from the nose and tail cones and the price. The tail cone appears to have the little fairing at the bottom--so it's probably blow molded. I don't understand the curved part of the fins though.

[jspitza]

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBVLF&P=7

With a list price of $24.99, hard to believe that it is the maxi-brute version.
No its not- much smaller. Too gobsmacked to ask the scale although it looked larger than Semrocs. We saw it at the Ihobby expo (along side all of the pro models) and its a really beauty! The rep said Feb 2012

[jharding58]

Although there's no features in the photo to determine scale, my guess is that it's the 1:24 scale--simply judging from the nose and tail cones and the price. The tail cone appears to have the little fairing at the bottom--so it's probably blow molded. I don't understand the curved part of the fins though.

Stress loves sharp interior angles.

It indeed looks like the boattail last used on the BT-80 Silver Comet and the scheme used on the White Sands restored A-4 - but then, only John knows for sure.

http://www.v2rocket.com/start/others/wsmr.html

But it is going to be another large A-4 to play with... Bumper anyone?

[Jerry Irvine]

I thought the nose cone looked like the BT-80 maxi-Alpha one. A V-2 has a sharp tip nose so this is a compromise and the fin shape I am not sure about from the angle. I know the USR one was after intense attention to detail on fin shape. They seem different visually.

It's great to see Estes have a V-2 that is likely to be easier to build and more importantly fly easily on the available motors, which a 2.6" diameter does a bunch better than 4".

Jerry

[jharding58]

1926 was released with a PNC-80K.

[ghrocketman]

I would like to know what market research shows the demand for this rocket.
The V2 has been done and re-done ad nauseum.
Seem to recall many asking for a 1/100 Saturn 1B, the 1/45 Little Joe II, return of the Pershing 1A Maxi-Brute and several others, but exactly zero recollection of a bunch of V2 requests.
Just sayin'......

[MarkB.]

Not market analysis -- more likely cost analysis.

The V-2 is the "father" of all rockets so it does have historical significance.

A 1926 V-2 is a blow molded cone, blow molded tail, a short piece of BT-80, some card rings, a slightly long 24 mm mount, some laser cut fins, a parachute, a launch lug and a piece of clay. And its going to sell for 25 bucks. With that profit margin, it makes sense. The collectors and the insane eBay'ers and the thousands of rocketers who do not frequent this website will buy them. There are at least a few V-2 fans on this site as well. I'll buy a couple and do some of the neat paint schemes and maybe even a Bumper. As I've mentioned before, my 1926 V-2 is the best flying, most dependable rocket I've ever built.

Now look at your list and remember that, as we have been told, none of the old tooling exists. Which one of those, after tooling costs, offers Estes the return? None. Which one of those appeals to someone other than those who grew up in the 60's and 70's? Maybe a S-1B, but Pershing, HoJo and LJ II are historical rockets who never fought a war and never launched an astronaut. Cool, but to a young father wanting to build one with his son, irrelevant. LJ II production in particular is academic: an LES, RCSs, chrome corregations, fins and a body tube used nowhere else? Chance of production at a price point to sell enough units to pay for all the custom parts? Zero. Cone and fins on a HoJo or Pershing? Same problem.

So when we have these discussions, perhaps it wouldn't hurt to remember some of those Intro to Economics principles: How many wraps and dod-ads and custom molding or machining does your "suggestion" for Estes require? And who is the target audience? If your thirty year-old neighbor has never heard of the rocket, he's unlikely to buy it. And finally, what's your profit margin? 'Cause nobody sells rockets to go broke.

[gpoehlein]

It would be really easy for Estes to bring back the BT-80 V2 - they just used the nose cone (PNC-80K) and tail cone in the Canadian Arrow a couple years back. But the BT-80 V2 wasn't the Maxi-Brute V2 - that model was 3.9 inches diameter. Also not too difficult to bring back since the brought it back a few years back (I got one at the time - still in the box).

Actually, the V2 I remember most fondly was the first one Estes brought out in the seventies BT-55 with balsa nose and balsa tail cone. Both BMS and Semroc have both parts available, so I'm gonna have to clone it sooner or later (it was the first rocket I built as a kid that I lost to a rocket-eating tree!).

[Doug Sams]

It would be really easy for Estes to bring back the BT-80 V2 - they just used the nose cone (PNC-80K) and tail cone in the Canadian Arrow a couple years back. Years ago, I bought the BT-80-based Silver Comet with the hope of bashing it into a V-2, then not long after, Estes rolled out a BT-80 V-2, which I also bought. Later, in a moment of clarity, I sold both thinking I'd never get around to them :) I could stand to do that with more of the birds in my stash :)

But I still have the Canadian Arrow I picked up as part of the X-prize set offered a few years ago.

Actually, the V2 I remember most fondly was the first one Estes brought out in the seventies BT-55 wit balsa nose an balsa tail cone. Both BMS and Semroc have both parts available...Years ago, I picked up the BMS BT-60 set, but have never gotten around to that one, either. The nose and tail cone are collecting dust out on the garage. Maybe one of these days...

Doug

.

[jeffyjeep]

Speaking of V2, I finished this "Number 52" today. I scratched it in 1:25 scale from an Estes nose cone, an Apogee nose cone made into the tail cone, and BT's from Estes and Semroc. The black portions of the fins I painted by hand and the black stripes are 1/16" and 1/8" Great Planes pinstripe tape. The white parts of the rocket look pinkish because I'm having lighting problems.

Hence:

[MarkB.]

Doug,

Semroc has the laser cut fins and fairings for a BT-60/Series 16 V-2. Makes a good flyer that is surprisingly larger than the BT-55 Estes version.

[Rocketflyer]

Beautiful build!!



Speaking of V2, I finished this "Number 52" today. I scratched it in 1:25 scale from an Estes nose cone, an Apogee nose cone made into the tail cone, and BT's from Estes and Semroc. The black portions of the fins I painted by hand and the black stripes are 1/16" and 1/8" Great Planes pinstripe tape. The white parts of the rocket look pinkish because I'm having lighting problems.

Hence:

[ManofSteele]

So, would you be interested in a "premium" scale V-2 kit from North Coast, with a 2 part molded fiberglass fuselage (with hatch and rivet detail) and vac formed fins (again, with detailing) that would measure out good enough for scale? It would be sized for 24mm C through E motors.

I am seriously considering getting a mold for this kit made, but there has to be enough interest to justify the kit. This is likely a $59.99 kit.

Would you buy one (especially if Estes brings out a similar 1/24 kit)?

Matt

[MarkB.]

Yeah, but check this out:

http://www.spacemonkeymodels.com/V-2_Model.html

[John Brohm]

So, would you be interested in a "premium" scale V-2 kit from North Coast, with a 2 part molded fiberglass fuselage (with hatch and rivet detail) and vac formed fins (again, with detailing) that would measure out good enough for scale? It would be sized for 24mm C through E motors.

I am seriously considering getting a mold for this kit made, but there has to be enough interest to justify the kit. This is likely a $59.99 kit.

Would you buy one (especially if Estes brings out a similar 1/24 kit)?

Matt

Yes, I would.

[Rocketflyer]

Yeah, but check this out:

http://www.spacemonkeymodels.com/V-2_Model.html

Ohhh, PMC. 24mm E&F motors. :)

[ManofSteele]

Yes, I have a number of these kits. They are a great plastic model kit, but a bit heavy for a model rocket. My kit would have similar amount of detailing, but in a much lighter configuration.

If you are a big fan of the V-2, James's kit is a "must have".

Matt

[grog]

So, would you be interested in a "premium" scale V-2 kit from North Coast, with a 2 part molded fiberglass fuselage (with hatch and rivet detail) and vac formed fins (again, with detailing) that would measure out good enough for scale? It would be sized for 24mm C through E motors.

I am seriously considering getting a mold for this kit made, but there has to be enough interest to justify the kit. This is likely a $59.99 kit.

Would you buy one (especially if Estes brings out a similar 1/24 kit)?

Matt

Matt,

I'd buy one.

Greg

[Grimracer]

hum..

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXBVLF&P=SM

[ghrocketman]

I still think this is the LAST scale kit that is needed now...been done and re-done ad infinitum.
Booooooorrrrrrrrrrrriiiinnnnnnggggggggg.

[jharding58]

I still think this is the LAST scale kit that is needed now...been done and re-done ad infinitum.
Booooooorrrrrrrrrrrriiiinnnnnnggggggggg.

Well, for you perhaps. There may be some slightly less experienced modellers that weary of being outbid at $120.00 for a reasonable V-2 reproduction.

[Grimracer]

I still think this is the LAST scale kit that is needed now...been done and re-done ad infinitum.
Booooooorrrrrrrrrrrriiiinnnnnnggggggggg.


I could not disagree more..
I don’t have one and am looking forward to owning and building one. Am I alone?.. I doubt it..
The V2, like most scale rockets, are like the piper cub and or mustang of the airplane world. It’s really never wrong..
It’s also nice to be able to be a part of rocket history by owning your own historic scale model.

Put those together and.. you have a market...

Grim

[ghrocketman]

It may be the Piper Cub of scale rocketry, but most R/C as well as full scale pilots tire of Piper Cubs QUICKLY.
I would much rather see something that either:
A) Has never been offered by Estes like a Nike Hercules, Nike-Cajun, or Little Joe I.
or
B) Reissue of discontinued kits that people are actually ASKING for like the 1/45 Little Joe II, Pershing 1A maxi-brute, K-21 Gemini-Titan, 1/100 Saturn 1B, etc.

It's quite possible that their business model will never mesh with what I consider to be top candidates for bring-backs, but I sure would like to see market research that shows a real need/request for yet more versions of the two most beat-to-death scale rockets; Nike Smoke and V2....simple and boring.

I however AM really glad that they are actually trying though.

[jharding58]

Tire of Piper Cubs? That is sacrilege. Should you tire of a Cub you tire of life.

[ghrocketman]

I like full-scale and R/C aircraft that get my blood pumping like a Pitts, Corsair, Extra 300, 80's R/C full-bore non-turnaround pattern aircraft, turbine-powered anything, R/C pylon aircraft, but NOT a Piper Cub unless on floats for a novelty factor.
I have a Great Planes 20-size Piper Cub on floats powered by an old OS 48 Surpass just to have a float plane. Most boring thing in the world to fly. The only thing more boring to fly is a thermal sailplane.

[jdbectec]

I could not disagree more..
I don’t have one and am looking forward to owning and building one. Am I alone?.. I doubt it..
The V2, like most scale rockets, are like the piper cub and or mustang of the airplane world. It’s really never wrong..
It’s also nice to be able to be a part of rocket history by owning your own historic scale model.

Put those together and.. you have a market...

Grim

Hey Mike , pm me if you're interested in a maxi V-2 or Honest John (reissues) I'm thinning out my Inventory. They'e open box.

Happy Holidays to all !

[Grimracer]

Thanks Jeff. I will let you know if I decide. I still have my maxi HOJO however..

Grim