Old decals? Ugh!

[Scott6060842]

I figured it's time to start working on decal skills and try to save some of my old decal sheets from the '70's.

So I printed out Sandman's decal directions, bought the microfilm, microset and microsol.

First up, Photon Torpedo. Painted the decal sheet w/ film using a foam brush, waited 15 minutes as instructed on the bottle....saved one decal, the roll pattern. ugh.

After practicing again on a '90s Helio-copter (worked great), I tryed an early 70's Mark II. I watched the roll pattern crack and sliver all by itself as it sat on the paper towel . ugh.

So I guess my question is could I be doing something wrong? Are some decal sheets just beyond saving? Should I just give up and just buy all new decal sheets? :mad:

[MarkB.]

Don't give up.

Sandman has Mad Skillz but there are other ways of trying to save decal sheets.

My favorite is coat the whole thing with a relatively thick coat of Future Floor polish (or several thin coats applied 24 hours apart). Waiting for 48 hours after the last coat and then cut out the individual decals as the coats of Future have rendered the sheet one big decal.

Alternatively, Testors makes a clear decal spray that I have used on old Microscale sheets. Same idea: a coat or two of the spray, overnight drying time and then cut out the individual decals as the spray has rendered the whole sheet one big decal.

If these don't work, buy some new ones from Sandman.

[DaveR]

I've had good results using Krylon Crystal Clear Gloss on older decals. I usually give them a couple of really light coats followed by a heavier coat. I do allow them to dry for a day or two before applying them.

As MarkB. said, you can always get replacements from Sandman or make your own.

[jharding58]

Don't give up.

Sandman has Mad Skillz but there are other ways of trying to save decal sheets.

My favorite is coat the whole thing with a relatively thick coat of Future Floor polish (or several thin coats applied 24 hours apart). Waiting for 48 hours after the last coat and then cut out the individual decals as the coats of Future have rendered the sheet one big decal.

Alternatively, Testors makes a clear decal spray that I have used on old Microscale sheets. Same idea: a coat or two of the spray, overnight drying time and then cut out the individual decals as the spray has rendered the whole sheet one big decal.

If these don't work, buy some new ones from Sandman.

I think the latter Future suggestion regardless of the product will do you best. The propblem that you are dealing with is that the decal film is completely brittle. The backing paper becomes wet and expands under the film, the film then cracks apart (are the cracks forming along the grain of the paper?). The application of thin layers will allow the decal to soften and relax with a lower risk of cracking. Also, try coating the printed area first with a couple of thin coats. You really do not care how brittle the unpainted areas of the sheet are do you?

[dannymrmissile]

I figured it's time to start working on decal skills and try to save some of my old decal sheets from the '70's.

So I printed out Sandman's decal directions, bought the microfilm, microset and microsol.

First up, Photon Torpedo. Painted the decal sheet w/ film using a foam brush, waited 15 minutes as instructed on the bottle....saved one decal, the roll pattern. ugh.

After practicing again on a '90s Helio-copter (worked great), I tryed an early 70's Mark II. I watched the roll pattern crack and sliver all by itself as it sat on the paper towel . ugh.

So I guess my question is could I be doing something wrong? Are some decal sheets just beyond saving? Should I just give up and just buy all new decal sheets? :mad:

PHOTOCOPY your decals-Use TESTOR'S DECAL PAPER- after a few minutes, when ink dries, spray w/TESTOR'S DECAL BONDER . Let dry 2 hr.-dip in water,apply ! (if your printer isnt a copier, go to wal mart, etc., get a canon PIXMA inkjet printer/copier. They're only $ 30.oo- well worth it. Thats what I use-wouldnt trade it for anyother(for what I need it for). PS you're NOT doing anything wrong. Old decals work fine. The copier even cleans up background yellowing, etc. dannymrmissile. ps-use sprays; not brush-on's . ALL DECAL SHEETS are worth saving ! !

[dannymrmissile]

Dont coat old decals with ANYTHING-future, Krylon, etc. Photocopy them. Make new ones, save old ones for future copies or just collectables. They'll eventually run, crack, peel-whatever if you put ANY kind of clear on them. They're just too old ! Press them in a book !
(between wax paper, etc.). The Future Floor Wax thing came from long ago when we didn't have the means to do it as we do today. Use TESTORS DECAL PAPER/ DECAL KITS. It even comes w/software to desigh your own. dannymrmissile.

[Wayne's World]

Decals are a funny technology, but it's really simple. The inks used by mainstream printers is lacquer-based, because it is quick drying, and the decals are usually screen-printed. The carrier paper used for decals is pretty much universal - it is coated with a plastic, to make it water resistant, and then with a water-based adhesive, to let the lacquer release from the paper when soaked in water. When the decals are dipped in water, the glue partially dissolves, and the lacquer image is free to be removed (or floats around in the water dish). Then one can slide the decal to it's place on the model. After the water is gone, the lacquer based image is glued to the surface by the water-based glue on its reverse.

When decals crack or split, it is because the inks have degraded, not because the paper is bad. Most any decal can be saved by coated the surface with clear lacquer, which will dissolve it's way into the surface of the decal and relink the image. Water-based coatings such as Future may work, or they may not, depending on the ink used on the decal. A water-based coating usually won't dissolve the lacquer-based decal surface enough to save the decal.

[dannymrmissile]

Hi. Guess I was mainly referring to the old silk screen decals. In my experience, Ive had trouble/or was referring to the clear on top cracking, not the paper. Thanks for the 'tech' talk-very helpful ! dannymrmissile.

[Wayne's World]

If you're worried about old decals cracking, spray them with with a lacquer, Krylon Crystal Clear, Testor's decal bonder, etc. Let it dry, and then remember that you'll have to cut the decal apart. You can't use the original decal lines. Cut close to the image, and you'll be good.

Monogram Models have the crappiest old decals I know of. Old Estes decals run a close second. Just spray them with Krylon Crystal Clear or Testors DecalBonder.

[dannymrmissile]

Hi, & thanx. I think I just "preached" pretty much the same thing to someone else-RE: using decal bonder, etc. I agree- Ive worked long & hard on rockets in the past only to see that old Estes decal disintegrate into a zillion bits. Still, I think the beat idea is to COPY old decal onto decal paper & save tha old one. Whatta ya think ? dannymrmissile.

[Scott6060842]

Thanks for the tips, I'll keep working at it...

I already have Krylon Crystal Clear and Future so I can experiment with them in multiple thin coats.

Sounds like need to buy some decal paper and decal bonder and give making new ones out of old ones a try.

[DaveR]

There are some limitations on printing your own decals, least in my experience anyway. Most ink jet printers will not print in white. Also, clear decal paper doesn't show up well on darker colored rockets. Example, if you have a rocket that's painted black, any decal color printed on clear paper most likely will not show up when you slide the decal onto the rocket as the inks used are not opaque.
You can get around this by printing the decals on white paper instead of clear, however that opens a whole new can of worms. The main drawback being when you apply the decal, there will be a white border the thickness of the paper around the decal. You can color the edge with the appropriate colored Sharpie (or whatever) before you wet it but the results are usually less than stellar. You also have to surround the decal with a border of the color of the rocket. Spray paint colors are hard to match on a pc, there a few websites that offer the RGB, CMYK, and HTML codes for different brands of spray paint but they're not always an exact match.

I've attached a set of upscaled Ninja decals I redrew to print on white decal paper (as the rocket is painted black) to hopefully shed some light on my ramblings above. There are far more decals on the sheet than are necessary, but I usually need a couple of extras. :o (Oh, like some of you don't do that too. ;) )

Sandman (and others here) use an Alps printer which can print in white, gold, & silver. I do believe they are a bit pricey though.

[sandman]

There are some limitations on printing your own decals, least in my experience anyway. Most ink jet printers will not print in white. Also, clear decal paper doesn't show up well on darker colored rockets. Example, if you have a rocket that's painted black, any decal color printed on clear paper most likely will not show up when you slide the decal onto the rocket as the inks used are not opaque.
You can get around this by printing the decals on white paper instead of clear, however that opens a whole new can of worms. The main drawback being when you apply the decal, there will be a white border the thickness of the paper around the decal. You can color the edge with the appropriate colored Sharpie (or whatever) before you wet it but the results are usually less than stellar. You also have to surround the decal with a border of the color of the rocket. Spray paint colors are hard to match on a pc, there a few websites that offer the RGB, CMYK, and HTML codes for different brands of spray paint but they're not always an exact match.

I've attached a set of upscaled Ninja decals I redrew to print on white decal paper (as the rocket is painted black) to hopefully shed some light on my ramblings above. There are far more decals on the sheet than are necessary, but I usually need a couple of extras. :o (Oh, like some of you don't do that too. ;) )

Sandman (and others here) use an Alps printer which can print in white, gold, & silver. I do believe they are a bit pricey though.

Even Alps ink is not quite opaque so all colors must be under printed with a white undercoat.

BTW, I now have white ink. I had to order it from New Zealand. It only took 7 days to get here but...it's $4 more per cartridge than the white ink I was getting before.

A white ink cartridge is more than twice as much as any other color and has roughly 1/3 of the ribbon as any other color so basically white is 6 times as much as any other color.

Any time I print any color in must also be duplicated in white first. White has to be printed twice!

Some people have commented to me via email that I charge too much for decals.

And I'm just breaking even.

[kurtschachner]

A white ink cartridge is more than twice as much as any other color and has roughly 1/3 of the ribbon as any other color so basically white is 6 times as much as any other color.

Any time I print any color in must also be duplicated in white first. White has to be printed twice!

Some people have commented to me via email that I charge too much for decals.

And I'm just breaking even.

And the more times you go over a sheet to print successive colors, the more opportunity there is for a scratch or other thing to appear on the sheet.

It won't be forever that Alps ink is going to be available, I know there is/was Oki and/or Kodak ink that works but am I going to be able to find that? I don't know. Will you? And Alps printers are finicky machines, they like to break. I have two and my best one (an MD-2300) that has a straight-through paper path seems to have taken a dive. The other one is still working so I'm OK for now but what happens when that one dies?

Plus Alps ink isn't perfect. There are colors you can't reproduce plus the inks are soft and really don't adhere as such to the decal film. They can be pretty easily scratched.

IDK, I would really like to learn how to screen print decals. But I have no equipment and no ink and no anything. I can get films made to expose screens but that's about it. The last place I had screen printed decals made has gone out of business, and the other places I have found are at least twice the cost it used to be.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

[sandman]

And the more times you go over a sheet to print successive colors, the more opportunity there is for a scratch or other thing to appear on the sheet.

It won't be forever that Alps ink is going to be available, I know there is/was Oki and/or Kodak ink that works but am I going to be able to find that? I don't know. Will you? And Alps printers are finicky machines, they like to break. I have two and my best one (an MD-2300) that has a straight-through paper path seems to have taken a dive. The other one is still working so I'm OK for now but what happens when that one dies?

Plus Alps ink isn't perfect. There are colors you can't reproduce plus the inks are soft and really don't adhere as such to the decal film. They can be pretty easily scratched.

IDK, I would really like to learn how to screen print decals. But I have no equipment and no ink and no anything. I can get films made to expose screens but that's about it. The last place I had screen printed decals made has gone out of business, and the other places I have found are at least twice the cost it used to be.

That's my story and I'm sticking with it.

Oki and Kodak inks are long gone now. Some on Ebay but not enough.

Orange looks like ca-ca I don't even like to try it, as well as some shades of blue and purple.

Alps ink will be made for another 2 years then that's it.

I currently have 6 Alps printers two are not so good but they do print. One is brand new.

About the time they run out of ink I think my last Alps printer will die.

Then I'll be done! :(

[bernomatic]

Oki and Kodak inks are long gone now. Some on Ebay but not enough.

Orange looks like ca-ca I don't even like to try it, as well as some shades of blue and purple.

Alps ink will be made for another 2 years then that's it.

I currently have 6 Alps printers two are not so good but they do print. One is brand new.

About the time they run out of ink I think my last Alps printer will die.

Then I'll be done! :(

The crystal will turn black :eek:

[Wayne's World]

IDK, I would really like to learn how to screen print decals. But I have no equipment and no ink and no anything. I can get films made to expose screens but that's about it. The last place I had screen printed decals made has gone out of business, and the other places I have found are at least twice the cost it used to be.



Screen printing is a business where it really doesn't take a load of money to get started. I worked in the business while in high school and college. Printing T-shirts is a risky business, because it is mostly speculative, but the decal biz is definitely something I have thought at length about. To get started, one would need a few screens, which can be used hundreds of times. Just make your prints, wash the image out of the screen, and burn it for the next job. As for equipment, decal printing is the simplest and least expensive to start up with. You'd need a light table as big as your largest screen, a printing table, with fixtures built from parts you can get from Home Depot. Your biggest expense will be a drying rack, and even that can be homemade (dang, another idea of something I can make from our PVC pipe). You'll need a dark room, in which to coat your screens, a vacuum system to suck the air out of your screens on the light table, a couple of good squeegees, and the inks and screen coatings. You can print your negatives from your computer with inkjet-compatible acetate (or you can buy a graphic arts camera - lotsa dollars), and you'll need a decent graphics program and a supply of ink and decal paper. I know a decal company can be started for under 5 grand. It might cost a bit more if you need a color comparator. Some good printers can match colors by eye alone.

This is definitely something to think about, because Alps printers won't last forever, and some folks just don't want vinyl stickers on their birds.

[kurtschachner]

Well the drawing part is no problem. I have redrawn lots and lots of old decals in Illustrator, and it isn't a big deal to convert the colors to black for individual screens and add registration marks. I've already done that for several of my redrawn decals. Also, I still have (free) access to an imagesetter so films are not a problem. And I have had a darkroom in the past, I made one to help my daughters with 4-H projects using the equipment from my teens. So all of that isn't a huge issue. I also get the general concept of screen printing, we had a small unit at a previous job to make thick film capacitance devices. That was a research machine but still, I saw how it operated and I know the process.

There isn't much on the web about screen printing decals though. What kind of inks do you use? Who sells them? The inks would all be solid color so that simplifies any registration issues. And I would probably eyeball the colors and not use any electronic comparator.

Do you know of any good websites on how to screen print decals?


Screen printing is a business where it really doesn't take a load of money to get started. I worked in the business while in high school and college. Printing T-shirts is a risky business, because it is mostly speculative, but the decal biz is definitely something I have thought at length about. To get started, one would need a few screens, which can be used hundreds of times. Just make your prints, wash the image out of the screen, and burn it for the next job. As for equipment, decal printing is the simplest and least expensive to start up with. You'd need a light table as big as your largest screen, a printing table, with fixtures built from parts you can get from Home Depot. Your biggest expense will be a drying rack, and even that can be homemade (dang, another idea of something I can make from our PVC pipe). You'll need a dark room, in which to coat your screens, a vacuum system to suck the air out of your screens on the light table, a couple of good squeegees, and the inks and screen coatings. You can print your negatives from your computer with inkjet-compatible acetate (or you can buy a graphic arts camera - lotsa dollars), and you'll need a decent graphics program and a supply of ink and decal paper. I know a decal company can be started for under 5 grand. It might cost a bit more if you need a color comparator. Some good printers can match colors by eye alone.

This is definitely something to think about, because Alps printers won't last forever, and some folks just don't want vinyl stickers on their birds.